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PCs knowledge and perspective about Elder Races


Nicochan

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4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

there is somewhere (my memory) described that these rootless may be accepted by the forest. Out of the forest for sure, but accepted as "elf friend", if tehy are, of course

Yes, 2 categories of elves outside Aldryami society

Rootless lack the connection to Aldrya but aren't enemies unless they join a hostile cult. 

Renegade are actively hostile.

Mentioned in Cults of Prax writeup of Aldrya I think.

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On 2/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, JRE said:

I would say that only a Lhankor Mhy pedant would use words like Mostali, Uz or Aldryami (so we can keep using them).

In other words, a typical member of an adventuring party...

These literate nerds are the ones who teach lore skills, and their terminology will have seeped into common usage among those who have any formal training. Such as Lightbringer cults other than Orlanth or Eurmal, or nobility and priesthood.

Yes, there will be nursery "wisdom" laying red herrings. Of the elf-king heading the wild hunt, of the fire trolls, of the tree-dwelling dwarves, of the howling silence of the dreaming dragon. And there may be hobby taxonomists creating speculative classes. Like putting moss and mice into the same taxon for being small, soft and hairy to the touch, and starting with m and ending on an s-sound - it stands to reason, doesn't it?

 

On 2/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, JRE said:

Normal people will just see elves and wood spirits, trolls and darkness spirits, and dwarfs, though those are rarely met, except for people that visit Bad Deal. Dragonewts are frequently met but almost never interacted with in Dragon Pass.

The term Aldryami includes dryads, runners, pixies, animated trees, and in a wider sense any plant in a forest. Elves are a specific sub-type of Aldryami, and you might use "green elf" or "Vronkali" interchangeably (if there even are different terms for these). How often will you even encounter a party containing both green and brown elves?

People living in the vicinity of an Elder Race population or two will learn to call different types different terms. It's like having fifty names for snow - don't eat the yellow stuff...

In that sense, a very tree- or ent-like Elf might be regarded as a different type of forest creature than a very human-like individual.

"I have defeated 20 trolls" after slaying that number of Enlo might detect as a lie to truth cultists.

Mostali encounters might be more frequent (and unfortunate) than their neighbors like if they have a strict policy on forbidding dwarf technology. Which might include use of iron or crossbows even if your human culture has fair access to it, and will include dwarf artifacts - even if the bearer thinks these are just weirdly shaped fragments of godsbone. Beware of gobblers or gremlins.

 

On 2/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, JRE said:

Dragon Pass is not an ordinary part of Genertela, as it has an extraordinary population of non-human sentients, so a Sartarite living near the King's road may well have met trolls, dragonewts, beast men (not elder race, but alien enough), ducks (ditto), and if near Dwarf Run, dwarfs traveling to Pavis or Boldhome. Probably the only ones she has actually talked to are the ducks, however. She knows where there are elves, but that means the part of the forest you do avoid, so no real experience.

There are tribal or clan rites which propitiate certain neighboring populations, which may result in face-to-mask encounters with representatives of that population. The Kitori Shadowlords are notorious for such encounters, and you never know for certain what species hides behind the lead mask. Their power has much diminished, but the wise tribes or clans will honor ancient agreements.

HQ2 Sartar Companion has a long scenario starting with such a propitiary obligation towards Mostali.

 

On 2/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, JRE said:

Troll caravans are an uncommon event in Sartar, moving between the different troll power sites, mainly the Shadow plateau and Dagori Inkarth. I would propose they use Sartar roads and benefit from their protection, so most people near the roads will have met them. 

Troll caravan encounters are an uncommon event in northern Safelster, too, although they probably happen on a daily basis somewhere in the region. Tusk Rider sightings might be more frequent than their neighbors like, too.

 

On 2/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, JRE said:

An Issaries trader may well have traded with Argan Argar cultists, and have met some dragonewt that started an interaction. I do not expect even an Issaries initiate to try to communicate with a dragonewt that did not communicate first, but a Silver Tongue probably will try. 

Just avoiding eye contact with a dragonewt might already be regarded as an attempt at communication by the 'newt, and could lead to a more direct confrontation. Their language contains elements of body posture and chemical signals (smells, even taste), and human evaporations may register as communication, too. Eurmali farting near a 'newt probably may be regarded as having offered to have sex, and might be taken up for that by the 'newt if that is its personality aspect of the rebirth cycle.

 

On 2/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, JRE said:

Dwarfs feature in many legends and stories in the West, but that does not make the stories true. But a westerner will know more about dwarfs, while dragonewts will be a shock. 

Other than on Jrustela, Westerners have always lived in direct neighborhood of elf forests or at least aldryami groves. There are a number of families who have "daughters of the forest king" (dryads or minor land goddesses/nymphs of forests) among their ancestors, e.g. anyone able to trace their lineage back to Damol (and through him, to Froalar and Talar, as well as to Aerlit) through his wife.

There is even a slight possibility for people descended from refugees from Old Seshnela at the time of the Luatha arrival to have beastmen among their direct ancestors - humans transformed thus in the cataclysm, who might show up in the Axis Mundi of ancestor worship.

 

When it comes to the Elder Races of Glorantha, "troll" is the only one I am likely to use, while "elf" is a term I avoid in order to avoid D&D-, Tolkien-, Pini- or Shannara-inspired misconceptions. I also avoid the term spirit when talking about entities that manifest a physical or semi-tangible body.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Can anybody not born into a species ever become a full, untainted member of that species? Not even Arkat Kingtroll could maintain his Mistress Race body beyond his quest to slay Gbaji.

Can aldryami exchange their forest community for another one? Can the elf refugees from Erigia survive in Rathorela as that was some sort of annex to their elf forest? Was the madness of the Hellwood elves inevitable as that forest shared no roots with their burnt home of Rist? Will the forest song of a forest not the home forest be as meaningful to a traveling aldryami?

Can a human passion approach the aldryami commitment to the forest? When it approaches heroic proportions?

 

I think it is possible for humans to become Mostali by having their body successively replaced by tool grafts, or possibly for a heroic Eleventh on Slon to achieve diamond skills.

It should be possible for human souls or spirits to get trapped in a previously defective dragonewt egg, and to hatch as a scout. The EWF had ways for humans to become dragons, spiritually at first, but in a late stage  also physically.

Any species of the Unity Council could become a Kitori - including dragonewts, newtlings, and probably Ludoch or ducks.

There are strong transformative magics in Glorantha, like the Luatha magic that transformed the survivors in Old Seshnela into beastfolk, or the divine power of Seshna Likita that gave her husband Froalar an unaging serpent body. (Aignor the Trader, human ancestor of the second lineage of serpent-legged descendants of the goddess, died of treachery before he could be transformed.)

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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I mostly agree with Joerg, as Player characters and leaders have a different perspective than someone that has never travelled outside their own tribal lands, and seldom out of their clan.

However IMG spirits manifest bodies frequently, and most people are not si rude to hit them to see how physical they are. So I believe that spirits are used to all those things that seem unusual, or very different from your experience, as anything extreme or exaggerated (big head flying with their ears? Half a man hopping around? Women that come out of trees or seem to appear out of nowhere? Pieces of trees that move around? That same freedom in appearance of spirits means that the first idea when a sartarite sees a maidstone archer is that it is some weird spirit. Experience will show otherwise, but most people will just keep their distance, if it is not hostile, and wait for leaders or specialists (PCs) to determine what it is and what are its intentions. 

As nobody in Glorantha has read the Lord of the Rings, I have no problem using elves for human looking aldryami (and that may apply to some dryads as well). Trolls are dark men, and they come in many sizes, with the rule of thumb that the bigger, more dangerous. 

A shaman will know better, but for a typical orlanthi hunter, runners may well be the typical example of forest spirits, pieces of trees appearing and disappearing. watching, making weird noises to frighten prey at the wrong moment, and seeming to be everywhere. And they know that it is better not to attack them, no matter how obnoxious.

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When we're talking about cults, culture, and belonging, I think we all need to remember that RQG is retconning several things. Spirits of Reprisal are different now, for example, and Orlthani cultists can no longer tell the weather, etc. ALL our assumptions [including mine regarding the Kyger Litor adoption ceremony] are guesses and generalizations based on old material. All we have at this time is cult briefings, the 'one-page sketch', that is solidly valid for RQG. When Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha [which will undoubtedly get nicknamed '3G'] comes out, all our suppositions will change.

 

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5 hours ago, JRE said:

I mostly agree with Joerg, as Player characters and leaders have a different perspective than someone that has never travelled outside their own tribal lands, and seldom out of their clan.

However IMG spirits manifest bodies frequently, and most people are not si rude to hit them to see how physical they are. So I believe that spirits are used to all those things that seem unusual, or very different from your experience, as anything extreme or exaggerated (big head flying with their ears? Half a man hopping around? Women that come out of trees or seem to appear out of nowhere? Pieces of trees that move around? That same freedom in appearance of spirits means that the first idea when a sartarite sees a maidstone archer is that it is some weird spirit. Experience will show otherwise, but most people will just keep their distance, if it is not hostile, and wait for leaders or specialists (PCs) to determine what it is and what are its intentions. 

As nobody in Glorantha has read the Lord of the Rings, I have no problem using elves for human looking aldryami (and that may apply to some dryads as well). Trolls are dark men, and they come in many sizes, with the rule of thumb that the bigger, more dangerous. 

A shaman will know better, but for a typical orlanthi hunter, runners may well be the typical example of forest spirits, pieces of trees appearing and disappearing. watching, making weird noises to frighten prey at the wrong moment, and seeming to be everywhere. And they know that it is better not to attack them, no matter how obnoxious.

What's funny is that Tolkien's Elves looked like Men ! They DIDN'T have pointed ears, extremely almond shaped eyes and so on. An Elf could be identified in LotR by being taller, more 'noble' in demeanor, and by having a youthful face and form but an ancient, often tired, soul. All the 'elfie' stuff was constructed by other authors and stereotyped by Dungeons and Dragons.

That's not a jab or complaint. It's just that Tolkien's descriptions NEVER specified such crude measurements as 'elf ears' or bust size or a lot of the other visual references that Western storytelling picked up with the advent of film and TV. His descriptions were more generalized and used language where a person's inner character effected their outer appearance. Dwarves, for example, were described as 'shorter than Men but broader, as stout as the stone they were born from', rather than 'under 5' tall, roughly 170 lbs. with a thick bushy beard and a sour expression'.

[Sorry, lifelong Tolkien honk here. Some people get fannish about Dune or Star Wars. For me, it was Lord of the Rings]

Edited by svensson
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I would say that elves were an ideal for Tolkien, while they are ambulatory plants in Glorantha. I particularly like to think the elves men meet are bred/groomed to be attractive to humans, in order to make peaceful interactions possible. It includes simulated mammal genitalia in some but not all cases, which also brings up half-elves, and other cans of worms. Get enough Fertility magic and virtually anything is possible. So the human-like elves are a minor fraction of aldryami, but a disproportionate part of the aldryami met by  humans.

As I said above, most humans meeting aldryami are not aware of it, and will most likely think of the spirits of trees, tree branches animated by magic or strange plant hybrids. Nothing to do with the green hued but attractive tree-wives and guardians they meet at the ritual enactement of the setting of the borders with the forest people. Or the dryads they met once in a fertility festivalwhose memory still brings a smile to their lips. 

In the seventies fantasy was already a set of redigested parts of LOTR, but Greg Stafford set up the Elder races as a reaction to the fantasy elves, dwarfs and trolls, and with the trolls as the only real playable race. That is why I prefer to use the terms, as an acknowledgement of how modern that position actually was.

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1 hour ago, Jose said:

Does anyone knows about an Aldryas subcult for non aldryani? Flamal seems not very useful for humans I don't know if that will change in the new Gods Book. 

As humans don't really exist as part of a forest, they would rarely move beyond a lay member status of Aldrya (and doing so involves effectively being transformed into an elf).  There are no human-focused subcults.  Flamal is about Plant Life - his magics provide the ability to sprout and bear fruit. 

The most likely cult for humans with an interest in the broader plant-associated community is Ernalda.

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2 hours ago, Jose said:

Does anyone knows about an Aldryas subcult for non aldryani? Flamal seems not very useful for humans I don't know if that will change in the new Gods Book. 

There was something like that in Thunder Rebels, the forest daughter of Ernalda, called Overdruva. Basically Aldrya as a subcult of Ernalda, for foresters - wife of Orstan the Carpenter, one of the crafter subcults of Orlanth, a hero cult from the Dureving Downland Migration.

These cults came as subcults of the (no longer supported, Thunder Rebels xcessive subcults only) Allmother and Allfather aspects of the divine couple, IIRC (Overdruva might have been Esrola the plant mother rather than Allmother). 

This could be a spirit cult with very limited range of magic, or just associate magic for Ernalda (or Esrola, the generalized land/grain/plant goddess daughter/sister of Ernalda).

Other than that, there is the Children of the Forest lay membership/minimum initiation in the cult of Aldrya, such as 

Spoiler

Morak

experiences in the Redwood episode of Biturian's travels in Cults of Prax.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 2/24/2022 at 2:55 AM, JRE said:

I would say that only a Lhankor Mhy pedant would use words like Mostali, Uz or Aldryami (so we can keep using them). Normal people will just see elves and wood spirits, trolls and ....

Kitori know to say "Uz", too.

"Troll " seems to me to be a pejorative term.  Polite and educated people will say "Uz".  

I am not saying that people don't use pejorative words.  

Seems to me that if you meet a Zorak Zoran initiate who understands what you are saying, and you call him "troll", you may just have him try to push you around, or you may have a fight on your hands.  So people probably do this less in places like Nochet which have Uz populations living alongside humans.

Now the big unanswered Gloranthsn question is: What do the various elder races call humans?

 

 

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14 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would PC's know iron hurts trolls and elves and wouldn't enchanted iron also be able to hurt werewolves?

Iron is known as the Death metal, and primarily comes from dwarfs. But would PC's know more? I'd say that if they are in a Homeland where trolls or elves are present, then it might be known. I'd probably require a successful Homeland Lore in that case (or Elder Race Lore if that is higher), but not assume it is known.

As for werewolves, per the RQ Bestiary "In wolf shape, the Wolfbrothers are immune to the effects of bronze weapons, which bounce off their hides. Only enchanted Rune metals can harm them, as well as magic."

So, yes, enchanted iron would work (but unenchanted would not).

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I think that there are so many legend about trolls screaming out in pain once hit by some humakti ancestor / local hero that everyone know that death metal is deadly

In my opininon a non warrior would believe that iron hurts anyone more than bronze. Maybe some experienced warrior would know that is more dangerous for trolls / elves / etc ... than human. But in all cases, those who wear iron are deadly (or fool thieves customers) so what is dangerous ? is it the warrior ? is it the metal ? 😛

 

now what does it mean to know legend and know reality about iron. Of course no one would say hey this sword makes double dammage again trolls.

We just have to manage with belief and knowledge, proofs and legends.

 

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I posted this last year on FB but it seems relevant here.

Elder Races in Dragon Pass
Although Dragon Pass is dominated by humans, about one in five intelligent beings there are non-human. The dragonewts are a very ancient species, descended from the great immortal Dragons of the pass. They appear in several different shapes. Dragonewts are most assuredly intelligent and civilized, although their cities are grotesque and strange to humans, and their language almost musical but impossible to speak. Their sprawling city called Dragon’s Eye is the plains below Kero Fin. Five other smaller cities are scattered throughout Dragon Pass, connected by magical roads. and beaked dragonewts riding atop demi-birds are a familiar sight in those areas. Nonetheless, the dragonewts largely disdain contact with humans except at a few designated places such as Trade Think Market or the Trade Site.
 
Almost half of all nonhumans in Dragon Pass are trolls, whose ancient queendom of Dagori Inkarth is between the Indigo Mountains and the Rockwoods. Dagori Inkarth is part of Shadows Dance and centered on the Castle of Lead where Kyger Litor, goddess of darkness and ancestress of all trolls, lives. Ruling these lands is Kyger Litor herself, although she is rarely seen by any but her most powerful worshipers. Mistress race trolls are thought to rule deep within the darkness, although they are rarely seen. The trolls are well suited to the land, and they worship the shadows that lurk about.
Smaller troll communities can be found around the edges of Dragon Pass such as Skyfall Lake, inhabited by a troll tribe loyal to the demigoddess Cragspider. In the southeast, the Troll Woods straddle Dragon Pass and the Holy Country. They share part of their tribe with humans and are much talked about by both trolls and humans who distrust them thereby. To the south of Dragon Pass is the Shadow Plateau, center of the ancient Shadowlands Queendom.
 
Beastmen predominate in southern Dragon Pass, especially Beast Valley. The origin of the various Beastmen are many and colorful. What they all had in common was a half-humanity, often overpowered by the animal-half of the creature’s makeup. The predominant race are centuars, but they also include minotaurs, satyrs, manticores, tiger-men, bird women, bugheads, and many different shapeshifters.
 
Dwarfs are rarely seen above ground, but there is rumored to be a vast network of tunnels linking their strongholds. Beneath the Dwarf Mine is a vast city of dwarfs. Dwarfs were allies of King Sartar and built Boldhome and the road from Jonstown to Wilmskirk. Sartar’s heir Saronil stole secrets from the dwarfs and taught his followers the art of stonemasonry; as a result, the dwarfs ended their alliance with Sartar. The dwarfs now aid anyone who can pay their incredibly steep demands.
A far larger dwarf city is Greatway. This beautiful dwarf city is carved on the slope of the Rockwood Mountains, and an extensive city honeycombs the interior. Greatway is one of the centers of dwarf civilization in Glorantha, but rarely interacts with Dragon Pass.
 
During the Inhuman Occupation, brown elf habitation in Dragon Pass spread rapidly, covering much of what was later the Bush Range, Grazelands, and Beast Valley. Large parts of the forest were destroyed in the trollkin wars, even when the elves were not engaged directly in the war. The elves dissipated their strength further by contending against the fires of Oakfed, from nearby Prax. Sometime before 1200, the elves and trolls met in the Battle of Cloaks and Fireclouds, resulting in the death of many Aldryami nobility. The elves who survived fled back to the Stinking Forest or the Holy Country. Unattended, the vast forest which once crossed Dragon Pass began its decline. By the Hero Wars period, there only a few brown elf strongholds in Dragon Pass. Green elves dominate the northern fringes of the Stinking Forest, the Dryad Woods, and other redwood groves. There are several isolated dryads who sadly sing out to their lost elf companions, but rarely get a reply.
 
The Tusk Riders are a degenerate remnant of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. They were corrupted by breeding with the trolls; eventually they were destroyed by the dragonewts. Some managed to flee into the Stinking Forest where they lived among the trolls, consorting in practices both evil and corrupt. Their steeds are great battle-pigs, as large as bison, well-suited to crossing forests and hills without trouble.
 
Giants are known to inhabit the Rockwood Mountains and often come down to wreak havoc in the nearby lowlands. They are almost always destructive. Some villages place spikes and other defensive measures to discourage giants from stomping on their homes. A smaller number claim kinship with other mountain ranges and can be found in the higher elevations.
 
There are Wind Children eyries in the high mountains. The Wind Children are Orlanth-worshipers and are traditionally friendly with the Sartar Dynasty, although they usually ignore the lowland farmers and herders. During the Lunar Occupation, they hid in their mountain fastnesses, but now have begun to reengage with the newly liberated principality.
 
Bands of baboons are relatively common in Dragon Pass. They are semi-nomadic, and rarely have permanent settlements. They are notorious for ignoring human conventions or rules unless they are forced to. There are a small number of gorilla bands in the mountain forests.
 
Less troublesome are the bachelor newtlings that have settled in riparian areas. They are generally shy and fearful, and are sometimes used as slaves by the dragonewts, which they do not seem to mind.
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On 2/22/2022 at 10:12 AM, Nicochan said:

What does a common Dragon Pass initiate know (the things that commoners usually know even before becoming adventurers or Heroquesters) and think (the stereotypes, the perception, the reception, the acceptance or rejection)  about:

Mostali?

Aldryami?

Dragonewt?

Uz?

My approach as a GM to such things is that when they stop overnight at an inn or travel with a caravan, they trade stories about such things, much as sailors discussed far ports and strange encounters back in the "golden age of sail".  Everyone (except the most bigoted enemy culture perhaps) is curious about such things.

Similaryly, every time the characters encounter an Elder Race they can have a tick in their appropriate lore.

The racist stereotypes:

Mostali:  Boring little detail obsessed beardies who have neat toys.

Aldryami:  Physically weak, stealthy, poo obsessed vegetable based weirdos.  Look but don't touch.

Dragonewts:  Cloud cuckoo land lizard folk. They make no sense whatsoever.

Uz:  Brutal cannibalistic monsters whose only redeeming feature is that they aren't chaos.

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2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I can't remember where, can anyone remember? but I remember reading that dragonnewts often die because they've never in a thousand thousand lifetimes learned you have to eat

Nearest I can think of is Sandy suggesting that Dragonewts only get experience gain rolls when they die.  

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5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I can't remember where, can anyone remember? but I remember reading that dragonnewts often die because they've never in a thousand thousand lifetimes learned you have to eat

I can't remember the exact book it was in, but it was more that in some lives they just choose not to, either because they don't want to take time away from something else or because they just don't care enough to.

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On 1/30/2023 at 2:04 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Would PC's know iron hurts trolls and elves and wouldn't enchanted iron also be able to hurt werewolves?

In m y opinion, yes, this is common knowledge.

On 1/30/2023 at 2:04 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Also would PC's know what other kindred races, tusk riders?

Probably, but they wouldn't know whether iron hurt them more. In my Glorantha it doesn't, as they are not Trolls.

On 1/30/2023 at 2:04 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Are elves or trolls hurt by touching iron or only if it breaks their skin?

As Derak the Dark Troll used to say, "Twice nothing is nothing!"

So, I play that they are uncomfortable touching iron but it doesn't damage them.

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

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