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Fronela: Greenwood & Tundra & Uncolings


Garrik

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5 hours ago, Garrik said:

And then there's Xemstown, which I understand was a colony - but from where did these Trolls come? Probably not over the Rockwoods, where the only pass is guarded by Dwarves? So more probably from somewhere in Fronela.
 

According to Trollpak p31, Xem and his fellows is from the Kingdom of Seshnela having been found there by Jonat Bigbear.  How Trolls got to Seshnela (ie not Guhan) is a big question that is probably unanswerable since the Luatha destroyed all the evidence.

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5 hours ago, Garrik said:

Here is a loooong-stretched speculation: English is not my native language, but could the exact term 'Syndics Ban' somehow refer to a specific representative body of some sort of official/bureaucratic syndics in the Fronela/Janube region? A general cutting of communication between polities could have many different names, and I've always wondered why so specific a name was chosen for this curse. What syndics? Sounds so official. Somewhere I read the Malkioni have influenced the Janube region terminology a lot. So maybe this echoes some sort of continuing, low profile Loskalmi/Malkioni meddling without conquest.

EDIT: Or maybe the syndics were Lunar, and the ban was directed against Lunar influence in the Janube region. An subtle yet terrible influence that could not be fought against in any less drastic manner?

Since Snodal was one of the Syndics, it seems to me that the Syndics were leaders of the settled Fronela.  Which would make the other leaders come from Arrolia, Alem, Jonatela etc.  Hence I'm inclined to see the Syndic as being that of a real world equivalent - an equivalent of a mayor or councillor.  But all this depends on whether Greg was influenced by Anarchism...

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4 hours ago, Garrik said:

There is Harram Wall in northern Loskalm (GtG 206-207), built in the Second Age to guard against something coming from the north. Not against the Chaos-ridden Dilis Swamp, which is very close. So clearly at one point during the Second Age there was a threat of invasion from the north. 

Probably the trolls of Oral-Ta which is closer to the Wall than Southpoint. 

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Thank you, metcalph!

Back to the historical maps.

Looking at the Fronelan Greenwood in the early First Age (GtG 127) and early Second Age (GtG 132), there's something very interesting going on with its eastern borders. At the time of the Second Council, the Greenwood dominated modern Carmania and Eol; then withdrew; then was partially back in modern Satrapy of Spol c. 700 ST.

I cannot quite fathom what is happening here. Is this an Aldryami expansion, a reforestation? An Aldryami-Hsunchen expansion? A Hsunchen/Rathori expansion? Or some sort of alliance, where the humans in this region allied themselves with the Greenwood Aldryami/Rathori? Is this the time when the connection of the Third Eye Blue people in modern Carmania to their origin in (north-western) Fronela was real, historical?

Further speculation on speculation: the influence of west-Fronelan metal wizards (TEB) in western Pelanda/Spol might have paved the way, to some degree, for Syranthir & his wizard-knights to later conquer & found Carmania.

Found nothing written of this eastern Greenwood expansion in the relevant parts of GtG. It is purely a map thing.

I'm beginning to feel that the vast expanse of Greenwood should be treated as multi-faceted and subtle player in the bigger mythopolitical history of all the lands between the Ygg Isles to Spol. A kind of 'greater Fronelan player', up until the Second Age. Some sort of a chameleon or multipart conglomeration, quite unlike other Aldryami forests. Perhaps the eastern and western reaches do not know what the other is doing? Or perhaps the Winterwood Aldryami nucleus has an extremely long reach and influence, at least in the First and Second Age, before the splitting of the forest.

Or perhaps the Greenwood simply is a way for Greg/MoonDesign to lump together 'things from the north-east' which are undeveloped in the Gloranthan mythos and history.

Edited by Garrik
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17 hours ago, Garrik said:

I'd be inclined to think that the Uncolings have been there all the time, from before the Dawn to the present. But on their own, they do not produce "big power" political organization. Possibly their 'ranger' lifestyle and the meekness of their companion animal doesn't lead into durable tribal organization that can claim and defend land.

The Uncolings believe they are reindeer who can assume human form. I find it difficult to see why they'd believe that if it weren't true. I think the simplest explanation for why the Uncolings don't produce "big power" is because they're reindeer - it's not relevant to their concerns. More generally I think Hsunchen should/must have very different motivations to other humans, making things like the Eleven Beasts Alliance and White Bear Empire genuine aberrations in search of a proper explanation.

Edited by Brian Duguid
Typo corrected
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The Voralans presents Glorantha's magical mushroom humanoids, the black elves. "Absolutely phenomenal" - Austin C. "Seriously weird-ass shit" - John D. "A great piece of work" - Leon K. The Electrum best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H. "Absolutely wonderful!" - Morgan C.

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Excellent point, Brian!

Food for thought:

Hsunchen potential for cooperation
GtG 19: "The Hsunchen languages [...] are not mutually intelligible." GtG 230 "The God of the Silver Feet aided these diverse peoples to communicate with each other and coordinate." So the Hsunchen of the Greatwood/Greenwood/White Bear Empire are not like some Theyalan Orlanthi who share linguistic concepts and central traditions. The Hsunchen urgently need divine/spiritual mediators for building multi-peoples alliances.

Hence it's also understandable why the eastern Greenwood practically covers the Rathori only. As a single and numerous people they can operate together, ie. have a "big power", or at least a regional "political body". But without an earnest effort in communication, they cannot easily include others. Since the Rathori, as Bear People, are companions to predators who enjoy solitude, whereas the second most populous Uncolings, the Reindeer People, are companions to animals of prey who mostly live in flocks (small or large), I can imagine there are huge challenges in creating mutual concepts and agendas to bring them together. (What Brian put into words so vividly above.)

Although the White Bear Empire is depicted as covering the whole northern Fronela, including Tastolar, it might still be a Rathori realm, and the Uncolings didn't participate in the war.

Characteristics of the notable people
Why was Black Hralf the Weasel so focused on chasing Snodal, and why did he later style himself Son of the Devil (GtG 200)? What does 'Devil' mean to a Fronelan Hsunchen? Did Hralf name himself just in opposition to Snodal/Loskalm, or does he boast about his connection to Darkness or Chaos? Are there Weasel People in Fronela, is the cognomen 'Weasel' a reference to the companion animal or to the personality of Hralf? Why would a member of some marginal Weasel People be leading an alliance of mostly Bear People? Do I sense an animal fable here, how the weasel led the bear?

Apart from Lalja Vanemuine (who came up with this direct rip-off from Finnish/Estonian folklore?), the current notable humans of northern Fronela are either Rathori or unique (Vargartyr) (GtG 232). The Rathori seem to dominate, and they especially dominate in the martial end. Then again this is no statistics, because there are just five of the notable people, and one of them is a Troll. And even the Rathori are not described as leaders aiming to or even capable of unifying their own people.

Thoughts:
These Greenwood Hsunchen seem pretty individualistic, and the Uncolings especially seem to be very spiritual. They are not empire-builders, and when they are, their agenda is hard to understand based on the sparing facts. Probably their cooperation, even in small-scale raiding, is not based on planned political long-term agendas, but personal/spiritual heroism and occasional rage against civilized incursion into their lands.

This makes mapping their sphere of influence & alliances very problematic. The expanse of the Greenwood or the White Bear Empire on the map probably isn't comparable to other realms and empires at all. It's more like the Aldryami or the Dragonewts. The Hsunchen of Glorantha could maybe better be classified as a nonhuman Elder Race instead of human major culture. (Again, this is where Brian was pointing to above.)

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The White Bear Empire feels especially odd to me. How ever many Hsunchen tribes it did or did not unite, it controlled a huge amount of territory (1450 ST map in GtG), including the lands of almost all the non-Rathoti Fronelan Hsunchen (the exception being the Rinkoni, who now live on the southern edges of Fronela). It was aided by the green elves. They actively invaded Loskalm in 1443. Why? What did it offer a people who abjure civilisation and agriculture and who survive by hunting and foraging? What was in it for the elves?

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The Voralans presents Glorantha's magical mushroom humanoids, the black elves. "Absolutely phenomenal" - Austin C. "Seriously weird-ass shit" - John D. "A great piece of work" - Leon K. The Electrum best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H. "Absolutely wonderful!" - Morgan C.

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13 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Why? What did it offer a people who abjure civilisation and agriculture and who survive by hunting and foraging? What was in it for the elves?

First of all, the WBE serves as a backround force in Greg's earliest story about Snodal's loss against Black Hralf the Weasel, and his resulting adventures. I don't think that Greg was thinking of a larger, ecological or political reason, for the WBE and its attack on Loskalm. They are the baddies of that story.

Secondly, Winterwood was not part of the White Bear Empire. So apparently the elves of the Great Tree were NOT active in this pursuit. Are elves mentioned in the WBE and in the resulting war at all?

A couple of retconning explanation musters pop into my mind:

1) Planting the region with seeds? Bringing back the forest and expanding the habitual ranges of the different Hsunchen peoples?

Counter-argument: Are Aldryami with the WBE? Also, this doesn't explain the invasion specifically of Loskalm. Although perhaps only the Loskalmi recorded this event as special, because the tribal kingdoms south of Janube were probably much more used to Rathori raids. So the concentration of the attack on Loskalm might merely be a bias of the remaining written sources.

2) Some sort of pressure from Valind's Glacier? Trolls or cold? Something nobody in Loskalm or south of Janube knows about, but which forced the Hsunchen to move in concert? A domino effet.

This would make the Hsunchen (and even the Aldryami) an unwilling force, a natural phenomenon grounded in necessity instead of a political agenda bent on conquest. Loskalm being rich could mean there is more to eat there, fields and cattle. In this explanation, WBE would not be a real empire, but a huge movement that is described as an attacking empire by the Loskalmi.

Counter-argument: Ecological matters alone don't tend to be a Gloranthan answer to things. If there was an impending force behind the WBE, it probably would be mythicla, and as such exposed and known to the major powers in Fronela, and perhaps elsewhere too.

Here, it could be that the annual Kalikos-expedition had caused a change in the northern weather patterns by this time. The Kalikos expeditions are a Lunar central government organization, so didn't start before the 13th century. GtG 650 notes that the Kalikos star pattern has changed vividly some three centuries ago, so starting around the early 14th century. Perhaps the artificial warming of northern Peloria has distorted the northern weather, bringing harsher winters in Fronela in the early 15th century?

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On 2/22/2022 at 12:31 PM, Garrik said:

2. Between 700ST (p. 132) and 900ST (p. 134), the Greenwood gets divided in its western end, into Winterwood and a stumped Greenwood. The region between them largely corresponds to Talostar (and the Black Forest). What happens here? Couldn't find a hint in the history & Fronela texts. If this is connected to some sort of forest withdrawal/destruction, it's on the magnitude of destructions of Erigia and Rist combined. As a political/magical/ecological development, is it somehow connected to the God Learners' empire and the emergence of Frontem?

I remember a map maker (possibly Colin Driver) remarking on the difficulty to assign forestation to areas of the map, as there are different densities and intensities (tree heights) to the definition of forest.

Quite a lot of Fronela has the same kind of endless Spruce wasteland that surrounded the Alaska Highway before the lumber industry started its ongoing attempt at extinction. There are no two thoughts about whether that kind of woodland is forested or not.

The arctic forest of birches and pine that I experienced in Scandinavia north of the arctic circle might be regarded as shrubland or open savannah by other standards (e.g. different climate), with few trees if any exceeding twice my height (my height being 6'6 / 2m).

Herding activity, especially by goats (which are fairly common in Fronela) may suppress regrowth and create areas of quite open woodland, suitable for riding through. Other migratory herds may take advantage of such an environment, too, and the proximity of the Glacier will stunt regrowth north of the Janube outside of intensive elf-activity.

 

On 2/22/2022 at 12:31 PM, Garrik said:

3. North-east of Fronela/Greenwood, and north of modern Erigia and Eol, there is a big patch of land before the White Sea. This land is largely forested, and where there is forest there must be animals etc. This region seems to go without name. Is it Troll land? Are there Aldryami in the forests? Do the Uncoling and/or Eol reindeer flocks range this far (there would be actual tundra, ie. real reindeer land, at the shores of the White Sea)? Anything written about it?

Animal habitation depends on the type of forest. If it some more of the spruce wasteland or northern Siberian taiga, biodiversity will be fairly poor. If it is somewhat more open subarctic pine and birch forest, the wetlands in between above the permafrost may provide lush biodiversity in summer, and offer areas where lichen can grow for delectation by the reindeer/caribou and possibly other modern and pleistocenic macrofauna of the arctic, such as musk oxen, non-Praxian bison, woolly rhino, ground sloths, mammoths or mastodons, and possibly wild or feral equines. Otherwise, think the Ice Age animated flicks.

This would be migratory hunting lands for most adjacent populations of hunters, whether Rathori, Borklak's Dark Trolls, snow trolls, Eolians or Char-un.

During the Ice Age and post-Ice Age period of the Gods War, the reindeer people east of the Oslir had a pretty gruesome notoriety, hunting other humans for food (if not for themselves, then for their herds, as reindeer are pretty omnivorous and used to high protein diet - there have been arctic expeditions feeding their reindeer with dried cod). I wonder whether the people of Thrice Blessed are descended from these charming folk. If so, even the trolls might wish to tread carefully.

On 2/22/2022 at 12:31 PM, Garrik said:

Related to the unnamed patch of land NE of Greenwood and E of Valind's Glacier, eastward over the gulf there used to be the Tallseed forest (Lentasia) (p. 126, 372). So Aldryami magical/political realms were present this far north. Why not on the western side of the gulf?

East of the gulf were the northern reaches of Genert's Garden, with its own extra fertility that may have been lesser in the western part of the continent, which also was a lot closer to the core lands of Valind.

On 2/22/2022 at 12:31 PM, Garrik said:

I have the GtG, and have read some Greg Sez & Daliath articles of old. There's a lot I don't have, notably the Glorantha: the Second Age Fronela-book.

I haven't read the Fronela book (probably wasn't part of the bundles offered to me when the Mongoose license was running out), but I would expect that it focussed on the God Learners vs. Traditionalists struggle.

On 2/22/2022 at 12:31 PM, Garrik said:

Also the northern Fronelan material being this thin, I'd be interested to hear who has written/mapped it? All coming from Greg, or are there others who have contributed to this region?

All coming from Greg, as far as I can tell, with the possible exception of the troll presence in Troll Pak which may have been a collaboration with Sandy Petersen.

Snodal's Saga seems to be the main source for the struggle against the White Bear Empire, which appears to be a Third Age, post-God Learner development. Possibly some call-back to the unity the beast totem people had shown in the events around the Battle of Eleven Beasts (substract the Praxian mercenaries' beasts to arrive at the Fronelan count).

 

23 hours ago, Garrik said:

4. GtG and GregSez give a bit different reasoning & order for the application of Janube (the Sea/River god) in creating the Janube river.

GtG (p. 690, under Waertagi) says the Waertagi summoned the Janube river/god to surround the Sog City, so that a prophecy about the city's end would not come true.

I take this Waertagi text to be part of the post-Flood era activity when the inland seas receded or were evaporated by Storm Gods and other land-based foes.

23 hours ago, Garrik said:

GregSez says that Janube came earlier and drowned all the lowlands, so that only the highlands remained above water/sea level.

That sounds like a description of the Flood that led to Anaxial's Ark and other such shenanigans like the Thrinbarri battles, or the Trembling Shore. A reduced Greatwood is shown to have persisted during the Flood.

23 hours ago, Garrik said:

So it's one of the mythical Rivers that invaded the lands.

I am not actually sure about that. There would have been rivers reaching inward from the Neliomi Sea, but none at that scale anywhere else on the Neliomi shore - half of Arolanit (a coastal  land) drains into the Nidan river, which empties into the south.

23 hours ago, Garrik said:

Only later, based on the mythical existence of a now dried-up Janube (in the Sweet Sea), the Sog Waertagi/Kachisti summoned it back to break out from the Sweet Sea and to surround the Sog City.

And then continued to push onwards as the Poral and Listor and finally the Oronin rivers.

But alreade the implosion of Mt. Ladaral that led to the creation of the Brass Citadel was a combined action of the Brithini with the Waertagi and the Neliomi waters. The Janube Sea invasion during the Flood may have been based on the use of Tidal Wave or its offspring by the Waertagi.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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57 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Secondly, Winterwood was not part of the White Bear Empire. So apparently the elves of the Great Tree were NOT active in this pursuit. Are elves mentioned in the WBE and in the resulting war at all?

Guide to Glorantha, text box on page 230:

Quote

The White Bear could fight during winter and was often aided by green elves and an army of shamans.

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The Voralans presents Glorantha's magical mushroom humanoids, the black elves. "Absolutely phenomenal" - Austin C. "Seriously weird-ass shit" - John D. "A great piece of work" - Leon K. The Electrum best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H. "Absolutely wonderful!" - Morgan C.

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25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Quite a lot of Fronela has the same kind of endless Spruce wasteland that surrounded the Alaska Highway before the lumber industry started its ongoing attempt at extinction. [...] Animal habitation depends on the type of forest. If it some more of the spruce wasteland or northern Siberian taiga, biodiversity will be fairly poor.

Had to check the natural range of Canadian spruce (white spruce, picea glauca) and the North American caribou range. Largest flocks of caribou live in the Canadian spruce range. Not sure when it becomes 'spruce wasteland', and haven't seen the Alaskan highway. I live in Finland, so I know how barren the forest bottom of a pure spruce/fir forest is. But it's rare to have a pure, continuous forest like that.

Greg's vision should be appreciated, but it can still be a local vision. GtG 230-232 says Winterwood is "conifer forest", Courtwood is "firs and pine", Tastolar is "thinly-forested", and Rathorela is "virgin boreal forest - primarily pine, larch, spruce and firs, with some scattered temperate deciduous trees such as maple, elm, and oak". Apart from Winterwood and northernmost Tastolar/Rathorela, this surely isn't 'spruce wasteland'. Neither is most of northern Canada.
 

Quote

During the Ice Age and post-Ice Age period of the Gods War, the reindeer people east of the Oslir had a pretty gruesome notoriety, hunting other humans for food (if not for themselves, then for their herds -- --.

Where is this said?

Looking at the GtG 691 map of Late Storm Age (Lesser Darkness), when Valind's Glacier reached furthest south, it covered all Fronela up to the Rockwood mountains. East of Oslir was ice, Trolls and Hollri. The forefathers of the Uncolings must have lived elsewhere. Later, when the ice receded, there were reindeer herders living in the upper Oslir Demonland, but they are not described as cannibals, just miserable (GtG 695).

I can easily see how people would become cannibals when everything freezes over and the world is seemingly coming to an end. To ascribe cannibalism and manhunting specifically to the Uncolings/reindeer people sounds strange.

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2 minutes ago, Garrik said:

To ascribe cannibalism and manhunting specifically to the Uncolings/reindeer people sounds strange.

It actually has some ecological basis: reindeer are known to predate on small animals near the end of winter, when their fat reserves are at their lowest.  Reindeer hsunchen becoming manhunters as the world died is certainly a grim evolution for them, but that sort of thing was rather in vogue in the Greater Darkness, unless you happened to be friends with Ezkankekko or Pamalt.

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6 minutes ago, Garrik said:
Quote

During the Ice Age and post-Ice Age period of the Gods War, the reindeer people east of the Oslir had a pretty gruesome notoriety, hunting other humans for food (if not for themselves, then for their herds -- --.

Where is this said?

Maybe related, probably not, but in the Book of Heortling Mythology (pg 109) the Uncolings gave "sacrifice to monsters and demons to help them survive and fight against the Vingkotlings", during the Great Darkness. Hsunchen fans may note the similarity to Guide to Glorantha (pg 693) where in the same period the Basmoli also gave "sacrifice to monsters and demons to help them survive". Something weird in Hsunchen prehistory, there.

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The Voralans presents Glorantha's magical mushroom humanoids, the black elves. "Absolutely phenomenal" - Austin C. "Seriously weird-ass shit" - John D. "A great piece of work" - Leon K. The Electrum best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H. "Absolutely wonderful!" - Morgan C.

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18 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

It actually has some ecological basis: reindeer are known to predate on small animals near the end of winter, when their fat reserves are at their lowest.  Reindeer hsunchen becoming manhunters as the world died is certainly a grim evolution for them, but that sort of thing was rather in vogue in the Greater Darkness, unless you happened to be friends with Ezkankekko or Pamalt.

Oh, I didn't mean it sounded strange because it wouldn't have some real world backing!

In addition to reindeer, many other herbivores can and do occasionally eat meat, mostly cadavers. Deers and hares do this. Just like many carnivores actually eat some plants. Like dogs. Bears actually get most of their nutrition from plants and fish (and ants), even if they are prime hunters. (Polar bears only eat meat because that's pretty much all they have.)

All Hsunchen are hunters. And because of this, those with herbivorous animal companions and perhaps even reindeer identity can eat meat too. They are never described as vegans even if their animal companions are herbivores. Hsunchen even eat the species of their own animal companions. This is not seen as cannibalism in the official Gloranthan texts, even if Trolls eating Trollkin surely is described as cannibalism. I'd say this goes back to the nature of the Beast/Hsunchen rune.

I don't see reindeer eating meat in real world and getting some small percentage of their nutrition/proteins from that as big deal regarding the life of Gloranthan Hsunchen and Uncolings especially. I've seen this discussion before in here. I don't get why people want to have this discussion, what's the goal of this discussion. That's what I had in mind when using the word 'strange'. 🙂

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22 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Maybe related, probably not, but in the Book of Heortling Mythology (pg 109) the Uncolings gave "sacrifice to monsters and demons to help them survive and fight against the Vingkotlings", during the Great Darkness. Hsunchen fans may note the similarity to Guide to Glorantha (pg 693) where in the same period the Basmoli also gave "sacrifice to monsters and demons to help them survive". Something weird in Hsunchen prehistory, there.

Sure.

Some desperate Orlanthi give offerings to Mallia to avert disease, but it doesn't make them demonized Chaos worshippers. You have to live with the consequences, and you can. Might need confession and purification.

Darkness is a source of monsters and demons, as is Valind. During the Great Darkness many people probably offered to Darkness gods and spirits. People did many things they wouldn't do today. People in Maniria and Dragon Pass paid tithes to Trolls and Ezkankekko even during Time.

Heortling mythology surely paints their enemies in darkest possible colours. Just like Lunars demonize (some of) the Storm pantheon.

I like when the Gloranthan people are not idealized or demonized, but described as living within the mythical world as best as they can. Further, when people are referring to real world regarding what reindeer eat, maybe they can refer to real world with its shades of gray. Even if Glorantha is very idealistic.

I feel the discussion is getting off the track here.

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28 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Had to check the natural range of Canadian spruce (white spruce, picea glauca) and the North American caribou range. Largest flocks of caribou live in the Canadian spruce range. Not sure when it becomes 'spruce wasteland', and haven't seen the Alaskan highway. I live in Finland, so I know how barren the forest bottom of a pure spruce/fir forest is. But it's rare to have a pure, continuous forest like that.

I tried to sell the Scandinavian forest near the tree line to Greg, and he told me to think about the endless spruce territory. I said wasteland because biodiversity in the parts where the trees are dense is quite low. Winterwood is dense elf forest, and Erigia apparently used to be, too. Denser than Siberian Taiga, which is sort of a homeland for horse nomads where they interface with reindeer nomads.

 

28 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Greg's vision should be appreciated, but it can still be a local vision. GtG 230-232 says Winterwood is "conifer forest", Courtwood is "firs and pine", Tastolar is "thinly-forested", and Rathorela is "virgin boreal forest - primarily pine, larch, spruce and firs, with some scattered temperate deciduous trees such as maple, elm, and oak". Apart from Winterwood and northernmost Tastolar/Rathorela, this surely isn't 'spruce wasteland'. Neither is most of northern Canada.

Northern Canada becomes more open Taiga, and then tundra, although the Yukon territory still seems to be fairly densely forested. But it also is only about the latitude of Turku, IIRC. The tree border in Alaska and Canada appears to be at or below the Arctic Circle, unlike Scandinavia and northern Finland where it extends several hundred kilometers further north. (I lived in northern Norway for a year, about four hours drive north of the Arctic Circle, and I made some excursions into and on one occasion even through northern Sweden. I also spent a few months further south in Finland on other occasions, so I am familiar with the north of Europe.)

28 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Where is this said?

In some of the Dawn Age Pelorian material, I think in connection to the Nivorah folk fleeing from the glacier while Dara Happa cowered under Manalarvus's dome. And I am not talking about Uncoling hsunchen, but semi-pastoralist hunters of reindeer, possibly in a mode similar to the Praxian beast riders. Possibly riding the beasts.

28 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Looking at the GtG 691 map of Late Storm Age (Lesser Darkness), when Valind's Glacier reached furthest south, it covered all Fronela up to the Rockwood mountains. East of Oslir was ice, Trolls and Hollri. The forefathers of the Uncolings must have lived elsewhere. Later, when the ice receded, there were reindeer herders living in the upper Oslir Demonland, but they are not described as cannibals, just miserable (GtG 695).

I concur - the Hsunchen of Fronela might have hidden in the elf forests that might have formed islands of resistance against the Glacier, similar to how Kerofinela and Kethaela remained free of the Flood a little earlier in the Gods War. It is one of the great mysteries how the elf forests (green and brown) were able to emerge so dominantly from the Greater Darkness if mythically there was no fertility and no sun left, but maybe the Sun Spider took fragments from earlier in the Gods War and patched those into the mosaic of shards of reality to create the Gray Age emergence of the world.

The Aldryami still Awakened at the Dawn, except for a few green elf heroes supporting High King Elf.

28 minutes ago, Garrik said:

I can easily see how people would become cannibals when everything freezes over and the world is seemingly coming to an end.

No western Hsunchen in what would become Pent and the Arcos Valley. These Reindeer people were something else, and may have integrated into the northen Pentan tribes after Argentium Thri'ile. I don't see any reindeer herding among the Pelorian Horse Warlords, although they may just have skipped that. Some of the Hirenmador emperors (Dardaggus, "Eater of Flesh", and Dagguneri, "Eats Women") maintained a cannibalistic streak.

 

28 minutes ago, Garrik said:

To ascribe cannibalism and manhunting specifically to the Uncolings/reindeer people sounds strange.

Not intended. I was speculating about the people of Eol, who are fisherfolk, reindeer hunters, and Thunder Delta Slingers, adjacent to the somewhat forested piece of Peloria extending towards the White Sea. Definitely not part of the White Bear Empire, definitely not Hsunchen.

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6 hours ago, Garrik said:

Looking at the Fronelan Greenwood in the early First Age (GtG 127) and early Second Age (GtG 132), there's something very interesting going on with its eastern borders. At the time of the Second Council, the Greenwood dominated modern Carmania and Eol; then withdrew; then was partially back in modern Satrapy of Spol c. 700 ST.

In the Fortunate Succession, there's some elf reforestation going on in those regions in the late Dawn Age and early Imperial Age.  Why it collapses is unstated with any number of reasons being possible.

 

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A big thanks to everyone who replied to my inquiries!

My other Fronelan problem is the lack of tundra & taiga south of Valind's Glacier. On the maps, we see the Rathorela forest reaching right next to the glacier, and that forest has deciduous trees (not birch) in its southern parts, no more than two hundred kilometres south of the glacier. In general the northern Fronelan forests are pine forests.

GtG 167 (Genertela/Fronela): "In the north are pine forests -- --."
GtG 229 (Northern Fronela): "Northern Fronela is a land of rolling hills and wide valleys, usually dotted with small forests of evergreen trees."
GtG 231 (Rathorela): "The area is virgin sub-boreal forest -- -- primarily pine, larch, spruce, and firs, with some scattered temperate deciduous trees such as maple, elm, and oak. The southern reaches of the forest have the most deciduous trees, while the northern is almost entirely evergreen."

Earlier, in another thread on this forum, Joerg discussed the population density of the north Fronelan Hsunchen people. Assuming they are mostly in human form, the population density, fitted in the hexes shown in the modern maps, is definitely not boreal neolithic hunter-gatherer. It's at least ten times denser, and considering the lack of rivers and lakes for good fishing, and the lack of sea for seal hunting, it could be a hundred times denser.

So what I think is that the glacier is entirely and totally too close, and the Uncolings have been crammed into an entirely too small a habitat. Just run a comparison with the vegetation in the Ice Age North America and Europe. (Easy google searches, so I'm not going to attach any maps.)

This got me looking back, beyond 1988 and the Genertela book.

RQ2 6 (1978/79/80, so I have the third print?) had this map (1st attachment) of Outer Glorantha. There was no specific Valind's Glacier, just Altinela and the Winter Wastes of Valind, both of them beyond the White Sea. Looks like the boreal forests of Fronela, some 40 years ago, were located some thousand kilometres south of icy wastes/potential glacier. And this makes perfect sense, as far as we want to relate Gloranthan geography and climate to the real world (history).

Interestingly, there are Hykim mentioned south of the Winter Wastes of Valind - just as there are nowadays Hsunchen south of Valind's Glacier.

These days, Valind's Glacier reaches southward in the western part of Genertela, whereas Altinela and the Mountains of the Sky are located north or northeast of the White Sea (see GtG 159). Starting with the RQ2 map, it seems these two have switched places, and the Winter Wastes of Valind = Valind's Glacier has been pushed south, over the White Sea, and right next to the Fronelan forest belt. (See 2nd attachment)

Now, having created worlds myself, I know these things happen. The creator gets ideas, maybe others get ideas, these get incorporated, things change. But I think the map 40 years ago makes much more sense in relation to the climate & open land in northern Fronela.

Interestingly, GtG 460 (The Seas, 3rd attachment) has a map where Valind's Glacier seems to be more to the north. It's a bit similar to the Snow Troll habitat (GtG 99, 4th attachment), suggesting that southern Valind's Glacier might actually be tundra. It's till Valind's REALM - a "Winter Wastes", probably tundra and some arid "spruce park" taiga (so dry steppes with very sparse woods) - but not just GLACIER.

OR ... The Gloranthan climate and vegetation is so totally defined by magic and gods (and not the warmth of the sun or the coldness of ice), that Valind's Glacier and Fronelan boreal forest can exist side to side. Perhaps there is no god of tundra or taiga, and thus there is no room for this type climate/vegetation? (Then who is Himile in the magical geopolitics?) Obviously, such a major influence of the gods is present in northern Fronela, in the region of Upriver (GtG 222) and Barleygrove (GtG 219), where it is warm enough for farming, because the people worship Lordril.

All of this said, I know how my Glorantha will vary! The Uncolings will be located mostly north of Rathorela, where they have proper tundra and northern taiga to range. And the Snow Trolls are not so much Ice Trolls as Taiga Trolls - just as they mostly are eastwards, around the White Sea. 🙂

Thank you for your attention. 😎 

Valind RQ2 6 Outer Glorantha 1.jpg

Valind RQ2 6 Outer Glorantha 2.jpg

Valind GtG 460 Seas.jpg

Valind GtG 99 Trolls.jpg

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1 hour ago, Garrik said:

Earlier, in another thread on this forum, Joerg discussed the population density of the north Fronelan Hsunchen people. Assuming they are mostly in human form, the population density, fitted in the hexes shown in the modern maps, is definitely not boreal neolithic hunter-gatherer. It's at least ten times denser, and considering the lack of rivers and lakes for good fishing, and the lack of sea for seal hunting, it could be a hundred times denser.

At least for the Uncolings, who (believe they) are reindeer who can take human form, I think a big part of any explanation is that they are not mostly in human form. Indeed, there's very little advantage to changing into human form in their environment. 

--

The Voralans presents Glorantha's magical mushroom humanoids, the black elves. "Absolutely phenomenal" - Austin C. "Seriously weird-ass shit" - John D. "A great piece of work" - Leon K. The Electrum best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H. "Absolutely wonderful!" - Morgan C.

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1 hour ago, Garrik said:

(Then who is Himile in the magical geopolitics?)

Himile is the God of Cold (one of the children of Subere, the Darkness).  Valind, the Winter Storm, and Himile joined forces to conquer the world through the great glacier.

2 hours ago, Garrik said:

RQ2 6 (1978/79/80, so I have the third print?) had this map (1st attachment) of Outer Glorantha. There was no specific Valind's Glacier, just Altinela and the Winter Wastes of Valind, both of them beyond the White Sea.

I always liked that map, but it's the only map that ever provided that view of Outer Glorantha.  Since Trollpak (p.10,12,16), Valind's Glacier is consistently in the NW (though extended much farther eastward until Stormfall).  Altinela has also been clearly positioned as the White Camp at the direct north of the lozenge - I believe from the fragmented references to Snodal's story that Snodal had to cross the glacier to get to Altinela, so in that regard Altinela's placement to the NW of Fronela was incorrect.

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On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

My other Fronelan problem is the lack of tundra & taiga south of Valind's Glacier. On the maps, we see the Rathorela forest reaching right next to the glacier, and that forest has deciduous trees (not birch) in its southern parts, no more than two hundred kilometres south of the glacier. In general the northern Fronelan forests are pine forests.

GtG 167 (Genertela/Fronela): "In the north are pine forests -- --."
GtG 229 (Northern Fronela): "Northern Fronela is a land of rolling hills and wide valleys, usually dotted with small forests of evergreen trees."
GtG 231 (Rathorela): "The area is virgin sub-boreal forest -- -- primarily pine, larch, spruce, and firs, with some scattered temperate deciduous trees such as maple, elm, and oak. The southern reaches of the forest have the most deciduous trees, while the northern is almost entirely evergreen."

The absence of birch in the tundra and the forests closest to the ice indicates to me a lack of personal experience of the boreal forest by the authors, with a heavy dose of "it's fantasy". Ropecon may have been the northernmost experience of Greg, in a place which does have deciduous trees like southern Rathorela is described to have.

Valind's Glacier directly adjacent to Winterwood and northernmost Rathorela indicates to me a rapid loss of Valind's influence at the edge of the Glacier, with at least Winterwood magically projecting its own internal climate all the way to the frontier. Looking at the three historical maps in Trollpak or those in the Guide, the Glacier seems to be resting, no longer moving south but neither retreating northward, at least no more than two or three hexes. Such stability is highly unnatural.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

Earlier, in another thread on this forum, Joerg discussed the population density of the north Fronelan Hsunchen people. Assuming they are mostly in human form, the population density, fitted in the hexes shown in the modern maps, is definitely not boreal neolithic hunter-gatherer. It's at least ten times denser, and considering the lack of rivers and lakes for good fishing, and the lack of sea for seal hunting, it could be a hundred times denser.

Obsessive nitpick: "neolithic" describes an agricultural society. Contemporary, slightly backward hunter-gatherers would be called mesolithic, at least in the Baltic region.

The Uncolings might primarily hunt birds, and possibly small rodents. Eating their totemic animals would be part of their culture, too. They will certainly feast on any berries growing in their lands, and on regular mushrooms, while their beasts might prefer certain mosses and lichen.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

So what I think is that the glacier is entirely and totally too close, and the Uncolings have been crammed into an entirely too small a habitat. Just run a comparison with the vegetation in the Ice Age North America and Europe. (Easy google searches, so I'm not going to attach any maps.)

Not to mention post-glacial Siberia... As I said above, the 15 millennia static glacier is weird. And I made my points in the earlier thread.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

This got me looking back, beyond 1988 and the Genertela book.

RQ2 6 (1978/79/80, so I have the third print?) had this map (1st attachment) of Outer Glorantha. There was no specific Valind's Glacier, just Altinela and the Winter Wastes of Valind, both of them beyond the White Sea. Looks like the boreal forests of Fronela, some 40 years ago, were located some thousand kilometres south of icy wastes/potential glacier. And this makes perfect sense, as far as we want to relate Gloranthan geography and climate to the real world (history).

That map's north has not been confirmed in either the God Learner mythical maps nor any naval expedition. The Sendereven sailors of Sramak's River could operate on that map just as well as they could on the map in the Guide. The absence of these lands in the Guide doesn't have to mean a lot - the lands of Altinela are only on the God Learner maps, and there is no definitive map of the Outer World, nor do I think there should be.

The best historical maps of Genertela are those in Troll Pak, and possibly the one in Cults of Terror. The map in the Nomad Gods booklet is interesting, too...

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

Interestingly, there are Hykim mentioned south of the Winter Wastes of Valind - just as there are nowadays Hsunchen south of Valind's Glacier.

Hykimi is the term for the beast totem peoples in Greg's early western writings - people of Hykim and Mikyh, the beast ancestors. I'd have to check when "Hsunchen" was first used. I haven't seen "Hykimi" in the RQ3 era products (except possibly in the Troll Pak reprint).

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

These days, Valind's Glacier reaches southward in the western part of Genertela, whereas Altinela and the Mountains of the Sky are located north or northeast of the White Sea (see GtG 159). Starting with the RQ2 map, it seems these two have switched places, and the Winter Wastes of Valind = Valind's Glacier has been pushed south, over the White Sea, and right next to the Fronelan forest belt. (See 2nd attachment)

Valind's Winter Wastes still extend to the north-east - permafrost land, only moderately covered in snow because of low precipitation making it across the Glacier proper, with very drifty snow. IMG at least.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

Now, having created worlds myself, I know these things happen. The creator gets ideas, maybe others get ideas, these get incorporated, things change. But I think the map 40 years ago makes much more sense in relation to the climate & open land in northern Fronela.

I think that is more a memory of a possible stage in the Gods War than a historical map. To repeat, the Outer World should appear different even if you try to retread an earlier travel there - but Fronela is not part of the Outer World, and neither is most of the Glacier. Northern Pent and the Winter Wastes are less well remembered, whether by sapients or by wilderness.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

Interestingly, GtG 460 (The Seas, 3rd attachment) has a map where Valind's Glacier seems to be more to the north. It's a bit similar to the Snow Troll habitat (GtG 99, 4th attachment), suggesting that southern Valind's Glacier might actually be tundra. It's till Valind's REALM - a "Winter Wastes", probably tundra and some arid "spruce park" taiga (so dry steppes with very sparse woods) - but not just GLACIER.

There should be a huge bar of morraines at the edge of the Glacier if it still moves southwards, pushing back against the sudden thaw-off. But another possibility is that the abrupt change from ice shield to cold temperate forest results from that shards of Godtime reality in between are missing due to excessive Chaos corruption. Beyond the spider's ability to reconstruct, with no one left to remember that which is missing.

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

OR ... The Gloranthan climate and vegetation is so totally defined by magic and gods (and not the warmth of the sun or the coldness of ice), that Valind's Glacier and Fronelan boreal forest can exist side to side. Perhaps there is no god of tundra or taiga, and thus there is no room for this type climate/vegetation? (Then who is Himile in the magical geopolitics?) Obviously, such a major influence of the gods is present in northern Fronela, in the region of Upriver (GtG 222) and Barleygrove (GtG 219), where it is warm enough for farming, because the people worship Lordril.

Nether Tundra nor Taiga had any place on Glorantha prior to the Storm Age, when Valind began to expand his ice shield from Ragnaglar's Land, according to the God Learner mythic maps after the Flood. The maps certainly give no explanations how the elf forests of the north could return during the Gods War, or when and where the Brown Elves came to expand their forests - the descriptive texts contradict anything that the Brown Elf forests would need.

Genert was still alive when Valind's Glacier was broken in half, but he died soon afterwards, leaving no fertility god for the land that re-appeared after the Glacier had lost its power. And the Gray Age did not bring any new gods - this was an era when mortal heroes took over. (It did bring back some old gods and many spirits, though.)

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

All of this said, I know how my Glorantha will vary! The Uncolings will be located mostly north of Rathorela, where they have proper tundra and northern taiga to range. And the Snow Trolls are not so much Ice Trolls as Taiga Trolls - just as they mostly are eastwards, around the White Sea. 🙂

Thank you for your attention. 😎 

Other than Snodal and his Altinelan lover, hardly any civilized person has visited that region. I don't think that Taiga and trolls of any kind can co-exist.

In the HeroQuest Yahoogroup (also archived at http://glorantha.steff.in ) I suggested a different location under the Glacier, where volcanic activity kept a bubble of air from being crushed by the Glacier, with a bunch of refugees from the Gods War still looking at a frozen sky and only shifting amounts of light and dark from the sun, but that community can be anywhere and rather far in the north under the Glacier.

 

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

 

Valind RQ2 6 Outer Glorantha 2.jpg

YGWV, but as far as I am concerned, the Winter Wastes are north of Pent, everywhere east of the Ice shield that remained after Wakboth and his parents entered the world from the north and chaosed the glacier apart. Once separated, the eastern half sublimated away, leaving a permafrost ice desert with wandering snow-drifts and some magical and weird ice ecology as suggested by that ice snake in Anaxial's Roster. The map above is simply missing the massive ice shield. RQ2 Troll Pak has it, and is IMO the most authoritative source for Glorantha outside of the Zola Fel Valley and the Elder Wilds from that era. (The only one except for that map, cryptic mentions in Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror and slightly less cryptic but even shorter one-liners in RQ Companion.)

 

On 2/28/2022 at 1:30 PM, Garrik said:

Valind GtG 99 Trolls.jpg

As I read Uz Lore, there should be mostly subterranean Dark Trolls following Borklak under the edge of the Glacier, too.

 

Edit: I came across a similar statement of mine from 2007: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/WorldofGlorantha/2007/4500.html

Edited by Joerg
found an old post of mine with similar statements
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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Hykimi is the term for the beast totem peoples in Greg's early western writings - people of Hykim and Mikyh, the beast ancestors. I'd have to check when "Hsunchen" was first used. I haven't seen "Hykimi" in the RQ3 era products (except possibly in the Troll Pak reprint).

Joerg, getting a bit off topic, but I'm interested in anything you find on this for my Hsunchen book. I have Heroes #4 (Telmor and Hykim/Mikyh cult write-ups, 1984) as the first appearance of "Hsunchen", in advance of the following year's Gods of Glorantha. The Hykim/Mikyh cult write-up there also uses the Hykimi term, to indicate cults derived from the beast ancestors, with Hsunchen as a term for the associated cultures or ethnicity. Not that there's a clear difference between the two, of course!

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--

The Voralans presents Glorantha's magical mushroom humanoids, the black elves. "Absolutely phenomenal" - Austin C. "Seriously weird-ass shit" - John D. "A great piece of work" - Leon K. The Electrum best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H. "Absolutely wonderful!" - Morgan C.

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On 2/23/2022 at 4:31 AM, dumuzid said:

Talor kills Varganthar but is himself slain; Harmast Barefoot, disillusioned with Arkat's crusade in the south, undertakes his Second Lightbringers Quest and returns from the Underworld with Talor, who had been dead for two years by then, if memory serves. 

A previous thread on Talor speculated that rather than simply being killed, he closed the Gate of Banir from the other side, and was trapped in the Chaotic hell there. Of course, being trapped in the Underworld is the same as being dead for all practical purposes. 
Also, that the Three Weapons of Talor, which were wielded primarily by three companions of Talor rather than Talor himself, represented his leadership of the war gods of Fronela, roughly the same as those worshipped in modern Jonatela, probably the sword represented Humakt, the flail Vorthan/Shargash, the axe probably Babeester Gor but maybe Urox. Talor probably heroquested to prove himself worthy (maybe using something like the Horali weapon test quests), and by uniting the leadership of multiple fighting cults, while retaining some acceptability to the Brithini of Akem somehow, was able to unify most of the (human, non-Hsunchen) inhabitants of Western Fronela against Nysalor - I take him destroying the Hykimi to mean destroying the Lightbringer and Nysalor worshipping leaders of the inter clan Eleven Beasts Alliance, not destroying the Hsunchen tribes themselves. I’ve pretty much assumed Talor is Illuminated like his alleged father Arkat, and very much into this sort of cross cult heroquesting. And of course his Nysaloran opposition where, like Arinsor the Chaos Wizard (using corrupted Hsunchen magic to summon monsters like the Tarjinian Bull) and Varganthyr the Unconquerable, all Nysaloran corrupt heroquesters. Note the usage of the terms Hykimi for the alliance, but Hsunchen for the people, in the Guide (p 199).

Talor leads an alliance of soldiers of Akem, Orlanthi and Hsunchen after that - presumably some of the Hsunchen follow him now the Hykimi are gone. Interesting whether the soldiers of Akem are Brithini Horali at this point, or like the modern day the Zzaburi hire mercenaries. 

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On 2/28/2022 at 8:51 PM, Joerg said:

Nether Tundra nor Taiga had any place on Glorantha prior to the Storm Age, when Valind began to expand his ice shield from Ragnaglar's Land, according to the God Learner mythic maps after the Flood.

...

YGWV, but as far as I am concerned, the Winter Wastes are north of Pent, everywhere east of the Ice shield that remained after Wakboth and his parents entered the world from the north and chaosed the glacier apart. Once separated, the eastern half sublimated away, leaving a permafrost ice desert with wandering snow-drifts -- --.

Do I read you correctly: before the Storm Age, Tundra and Taiga had no place on Glorantha, but after the Darkness (and the Icebreaking), they now are a permanent - and very large - part in the eastern sub-boreal wasteland?

If everything in Glorantha is mythical, what's the myth of this tundra? The death of Genert? It's simply a northern continuation of the Wasteland & Pent? Yet there was an Aldryami forest in northern Pent after the Dawn, so surely things grow there too? 

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