Fronela: Greenwood & Tundra & Uncolings

[Garrik]

On 2/28/2022 at 3:39 PM, Brian Duguid said:

At least for the Uncolings, who (believe they) are reindeer who can take human form, I think a big part of any explanation is that they are not mostly in human form. Indeed, there's very little advantage to changing into human form in their environment. 

This idea of the Uncoling not being mostly in human form puzzles me.

I know GtG 21 has this sentence: 'The Uncoling reindeer folk believe that they are reindeer who just happen to be able to turn into humans.' But that is not the only notion on the Uncolings. On the same page, referring to the GtG 20 illustrations, we can also read that 'The Uncolings live in a vast tundra region just below Valind's Glacier. They subsist almost entirely on their herds of reindeer, making use of the entire animal.' And the whole Hsunchen chapter clearly describes Stone Age hunter-gatherers, not animals who happen to take human form time to time. They have clothing and weapons and sophisticated tools, like drums. Yes, they have animal companions/brothers/totems. Doesn't make them animals.

In addition, both the 1988 Glorantha book and that HeroQuest Uncoling description tell of people = humans, with clothing and weapons.

When people interpret the Uncolings as reindeer, I think they put all too much weight on one sentence, whereas the mass of the text clearly states they are people = humans first. That single sentence is about belief, and probably about spirit-world experience. It doesn't make the Uncolings anymore reindeer than the Darkness connection makes Trolls evil spirits or the Storm rune makes Kolating shamans wind. It's a mythical and magical connotation, not the everyday reality for the great majority of these peoples/races. It's mysticism and shamanism.

And, referring to that GtG 21 caption, the maps don't have a 'vast tundra region', but the text indicates that the Uncoling habitat is such. I think this clearly shows that the idea of the Uncolings and the mapping of their habitat do not connect. The Uncoling are not reindeer, but people who herd reindeer. They have beliefs and spiritual connection to their animals, and some are shape-changers. But they are humans. If there are 300,000 of them, their tundra habitat must indeed be huge, as they must subsist on millions of reindeer.

This is very haphazard world-creation. Clearly, northern Fronela and the Uncolings require a lot more development to make these ends meet. But making the Uncolings reindeer is a ridiculous and counterfactual solution to this problem.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Garrik

[JRE]

I understand your frustration as it is typical of non-core Glorantha world-building. We get only a few snippets of information, and from that starting point people will develop quite different worlds. Sometimes one becomes official, others one becomes popular, but not official, and often there are several contardictory versions floating around.

However we should not extrapolate too much from the Real world. God learners (our supposedlu objective exterrnal observers in Glorantha) would say that yes, the Uncolings are humans in the hsunchen tradition. But the uncolings will say, and believe that they are reindeer that can take human form. As the human form has many advantages, they spend most of the time in that form. But they are reindeers. That creates a first critical dichotomy. Either they are cannibals, or they do not eat reindeers. That would be impossible in Earth, but in Glorantha it is perfectly possible Uncolings can survive on moss, lichens, tree bark and other foodstuffs not suitable for humans. That is why they can thrive where nobody else can, as other humans do in other parts of Glorantha.

The uncolings will be very different depending on your choice, and that is a choice, in absence of an official write up, you have to make. It does not preclude tools, leather etc, as I am pretty sure reindeer will die all the time, and it will not be a taboo to make use of the remains. 

I prefer the reindeer solution, that as long as an uncoling really believes she is a reindeer, and takes part in the right rituals, she can survive on tree bark, snow and a handful insects. Because that breaks expectation and magnifies that this is not earth. 

If trolls can survive for centuries eating ice and gravel, I have no problem with magically assisted humans living in relatively high densities in a tundra. 

[Garrik]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

I understand your frustration as it is typical of non-core Glorantha world-building. We get only a few snippets of information, and from that starting point people will develop quite different worlds. Sometimes one becomes official, others one becomes popular, but not official, and often there are several contardictory versions floating around.

However we should not extrapolate too much from the Real world. God learners (our supposedlu objective exterrnal observers in Glorantha) would say that yes, the Uncolings are humans in the hsunchen tradition. But the uncolings will say, and believe that they are reindeer that can take human form. As the human form has many advantages, they spend most of the time in that form. But they are reindeers. That creates a first critical dichotomy. Either they are cannibals, or they do not eat reindeers. That would be impossible in Earth, but in Glorantha it is perfectly possible Uncolings can survive on moss, lichens, tree bark and other foodstuffs not suitable for humans. That is why they can thrive where nobody else can, as other humans do in other parts of Glorantha.

The uncolings will be very different depending on your choice, and that is a choice, in absence of an official write up, you have to make. It does not preclude tools, leather etc, as I am pretty sure reindeer will die all the time, and it will not be a taboo to make use of the remains. 

I prefer the reindeer solution, that as long as an uncoling really believes she is a reindeer, and takes part in the right rituals, she can survive on tree bark, snow and a handful insects. Because that breaks expectation and magnifies that this is not earth. 

If trolls can survive for centuries eating ice and gravel, I have no problem with magically assisted humans living in relatively high densities in a tundra. 

Yes, I understand this. And appreciate the painstaking effort of explaining the Uncoling in another manner. YGWV. Great!

However, if we start on this voyage on people subsisting on lichen & bark, why not go all the way and say they subsist on some spirit energies? Why the need for lichen & bark, and all the other dodgy footwork, if we don't need a plausible real world connection at all?

How is such a solution better, more plausible or in any way more satisfactory from imagining that the Uncolings are hunting and eating fresh reindeer, as suggested by the word herding, their clothing and their weaponry?

Like Glorantha is a lozenge of earth in a bowl of water, covered by a sky dome. Or is that just what the people believe it is, and really it is something else? Because we can overwrite the meaning of the published texts with our willful interpretations based on some cherry picking?

Again, I'm asking for the deeper reasons for how people interpret the published material & how they create their Gloranthas the way they do. YGWV, of course, but shouldn't we have some broad agreement on what is meant by the published texts?

So let me once more spell out this problem of how we read & imagine Glorantha & the Uncolings:

The general Hsunchen description on their ways of life and food, GtG 18-19, doesn't tell they are different from Earth's hunter-gatherers. The Uncoling shaman caption on GtG 20 says 'they subsist almost entirely on their herds of reindeer'. Shouldn't we take these general descriptions as our starting point? Are they in error? Should the Food section be transformed into a non-Earth description of how half-animal-people can subsist on non-human foods? Should the Uncoling description be transformed into noting that they subsist almost entirely on lichen & bark?

How can we discuss this matter - or indeed anything at all - if we are not taking the published texts at their face value???

Edited March 4, 2022 by Garrik

[Brian Duguid]

2 hours ago, Garrik said:

I know GtG 21 has this sentence: 'The Uncoling reindeer folk believe that they are reindeer who just happen to be able to turn into humans.' But that is not the only notion on the Uncolings. On the same page, referring to the GtG 20 illustrations, we can also read that 'The Uncolings live in a vast tundra region just below Valind's Glacier. They subsist almost entirely on their herds of reindeer, making use of the entire animal.' And the whole Hsunchen chapter clearly describes Stone Age hunter-gatherers, not animals who happen to take human form time to time. They have clothing and weapons and sophisticated tools, like drums. Yes, they have animal companions/brothers/totems. Doesn't make them animals.

For context, I'm writing a Jonstown Compendium book about the Hsunchen. In that context, I'm interested in examining how different Hsunchen people can be, not just how similar. It's simply about keeping things interesting. And one of my strategies for that is "design in chains" i.e. to use constraints to spur creativity (a strategy borrowed from my professional life as an engineering designer). My specific constraint is, wherever possible, to take the published material at face value and assume that what it says is true. Given the contradictions in "canon", inevitably my Glorantha must vary.

For the Uncolings, it is therefore true that they believe themselves to be reindeer who take human form. That's in GtG, it's inarguable given my own approach. It's also clear from GtG that the Hsunchen should not follow just one template: the same paragraph that distinguishes the view of the Uncolings also makes clear that other peoples view their totem beast relationship differently. The Flari are an interesting example, but that's for another time. I'm precisely interested in what that variety could be.

I won't give too many spoilers for the book, but I can't see any explanation for the Uncoling belief other than that it is true. Imagine the opposite: Uncolings are born as humans, live as humans, and take reindeer form only occasionally (as per normal Hsunchen magic). Why then would they have this belief?

Their belief implies that they are born as reindeer, and can become human. This is not incompatible with the idea that when in human form they subsist off their herds, or behave as hunters etc. But it leads to different conclusions about their transformation magic, which differ from the standard Hsunchen cult template.

I've spelled out this whole rationale in more detail in the draft book, but I think it's very interesting to see how the Hsunchen may "work" given a different base assumption. And interesting more widely as there is often a contradiction between the way the human part of Hsunchen society operates in line with a paleolithic / mesolithic template, yet also considers its human and beast members to be the same "people". I think taking the "animal's-eye" view is much more interesting, certainly for my Glorantha. What would the Hsunchen culture write-up in GtG look like if it were not written from the perspective of the human members of each Hsunchen tribe? That's where my ideas for the Uncolings are going.

To be entirely honest, I think it's a blind spot of previous authors, who put in the material about the Hsunchen seeing their human and beast members as a common tribe, without thinking through the implications.

2 hours ago, Garrik said:

This is very haphazard world-creation. Clearly, northern Fronela and the Uncolings require a lot more development to make these ends meet. But making the Uncolings reindeer is a ridiculous and counterfactual solution to this problem.

And then I got to this bit of your comment and wished I hadn't spent even five seconds writing the above. If you want to continue the discussion politely, that would be nice. But I won't be spending further time on it if you just want to describe others' contributions as ridiculous without first asking what their thinking is.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Brian Duguid
typo fixed

[Brian Duguid]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

However we should not extrapolate too much from the Real world. God learners (our supposedlu objective exterrnal observers in Glorantha) would say that yes, the Uncolings are humans in the hsunchen tradition. But the uncolings will say, and believe that they are reindeer that can take human form. As the human form has many advantages, they spend most of the time in that form. But they are reindeers. That creates a first critical dichotomy. Either they are cannibals, or they do not eat reindeers. That would be impossible in Earth, but in Glorantha it is perfectly possible Uncolings can survive on moss, lichens, tree bark and other foodstuffs not suitable for humans. That is why they can thrive where nobody else can, as other humans do in other parts of Glorantha.

This goes back to my point. What are the advantages, for a reindeer, of becoming human in that environment? Are there any? Sustenance in reindeer form is much simpler than in human form, where reindeer-meat is the likely main food source, and leads to attrition of the tribal population. Those 300,000 Uncolings in Fronela: I don't see how they can possibly survive in human form in that geographical area. But if we accept that they are reindeer who can become human, the explanation is simpler, as 300,000 reindeer could survive more easily.

The cannibalism issue isn't limited to the Uncolings, as many Hsunchen kill their totem beasts either for food or skins or presumably normally both. The Rathori hunter illustrated in GtG wears a bearskin, and Telmor are depicted wearing wolf-skins. I'm interested in why that might be, and how it might differ between peoples, and what drives that - local ecological pressures? Differences in whether the totem animals is typically predator or prey? When you start getting to animals that are very different in nature of scale to the Hsunchen we've seen presented in detail (Pralori, Telmori, Rathori, Basmoli etc - although the last doesn't live alongside their totem beast, at least in Prax), then more questions start creeping in.

As noted above, I'm interested in using over-literal interpretation of the sources as a springboard to explore possibilities; not to use it to define how things "must" work. It's entirely fair to note that the problem with literalism is that the sources are contradictory.

[Garrik]

@Brian Duguid, and anyone else who might get/have got angry because of my wording ('haphazard world-creation', 'ridiculous' and 'counterfactual'), I'm sorry!

I just think we really should make the ends meet before going forward. That's my personal starting point. I understand how others have other starting points. Greg himself probably wouldn't have liked my starting point. Then again the number crunching he did with e.g. the number of Humakti in Sartar shows that this logical part of Glorantha was not alien to him.

I like the idea presented in the Issaries Orlanthi cult books, that one in seven is special. I have no problem with the minority of any culture being very spiritual and thinking outside of the box. But personally, as long as people need to cultivate the land or hunt&gather for food, I'd like to picture that most of any given people live rather Earth-like lives that are understandable for us, the readers.

For example, I like the short descriptions of Lalja Vanemuinen and Vargartyr the Too Big (GtG 230), and I don't think they are unique. There must be many of such people who walk between the planes, so to speak. I feel Lalja is a human pursuing the animal/spiritual, whereas Vargartyr is an animal pursuing the human/mundane. Or perhaps it's the other way around? Glorantha moves in both ways. Still, I like to think that most of the Uncolings and indeed any Hsunchen are less special.
 

Quote

I won't give too many spoilers for the book, but I can't see any explanation for the Uncoling belief other than that it is true. Imagine the opposite: Uncolings are born as humans, live as humans, and take reindeer form only occasionally (as per normal Hsunche magic). Why then would they have this belief?

I don't find it odd at all. It's animistic belief.

Belief is bigger than physical facts. People believe all kind of things about themselves and the world, based on their culture and real experiences. These beliefs are individually and culturally true and meaningful, they are practical, the people see their belief becoming true in their everyday life. I don't find it odd that an Uncoling would feel herself to be a reindeer. But I don't think that feeling requires her to sustain on lichen & bark.

In Glorantha, belief is anchored in facts about the mythical & magical world. But then again, I think Glorantha is not about single truths about anything. I think it's about the mythical connection between the physical and spiritual. And you cannot say which comes first, as Glorantha seems to have been about both from the start on (whether in Godtime or in Greg's head).

Hsunchen 'Ways of Life' (GtG 18) reads to me as the Hsunchen are people who have innate contact with their animal part, yet need their shamans to reconnect with their heritage. Personally, if I was to write about the Hsunchen, I would lean towards this description. Because it connects the two, yet still allows me to keep the Earth-like hunter & gatherer aspect. I find it more encompassing, yet very mystical and mythical at the same time. The Hsunchen being people = humans doesn't take anything away from their spiritual animal connection and the ensuing animistic magic & culture.

It's cool you like to interpret this as an outsider/logical description, and plan to write a new/insider description/approach from the animal perspective. Surely many approach it that way in Glorantha too.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Garrik
clarity, typos

[Brian Duguid]

I think the way that different people can read the same Gloranthan material and come to very different conclusions is one of the strengths of the whole setting. I'm in favour of having more anomalies, contradiction, etc, and far less detail pinned down than is the trend in current products. When I see on other forums people asking "exactly what does this detail mean" I think they lose sight of the fact that Glorantha only comes alive when they apply their own ideas: it should never be about adherence to what's in some dusty tome. When I first played RQ2 in the mid-80s there were no dusty tomes, and making stuff up was essential to the fun.

So I see reading and interpreting GtG and the other books (and I've done a *ton* of that for this project) as about defining a baseline, which inevitably results in a creative process when the gaps and contradictions in that baseline are brought into sharper focus. I'd be disappointed if my ideas just repeat anything that anyone can read within GtG, to be honest. I see the whole aim of JC as breaking away from that and helping people escape the sense of "one true Glorantha".

As presented in the game, yes, most Hsunchen definitely need their shamans to reconnect with their animal "soul", and this is also true in what I'm writing. Most were once people who originated as beasts but at some point in prehistory learned to become human; later getting "stuck" in human form, and being able to take beast form only with difficulty (with each people having a difficult mythic explanation for why this happened). We know from lots of Gloranthan material that becoming civilized (adopting agriculture) made that even harder (e.g. the Mraloti / Entruli). In what I'm writing, there are only a very few Hsunchen tribes that depart from the standard template; and all for a specific reason associated either with their ecology or with something written in "canon".

15 minutes ago, Garrik said:

I don't find it odd at all. It's animistic belief.

So: why do only the Uncolings, of the peoples mentioned in GtG, believe they are beasts, not humans? For me, that's the key thing that needs explaining.

There are lots of real-world animist examples of peoples or their shamans who believed they had a close animal relationship, or could take beast form etc. There may be examples of those who see no spiritual separation between those animals and themselves.

But the Uncoling belief is very specific: they "believe that they are reindeer who just happen to be able to turn into humans". "Just happen". "Turn into". I don't read that as people who think they have reindeer-spirits but are born and live in human form. It says instead they are "able to turn into" humans. I am taking that absolutely literally, yet being criticised for departing from canon 🙂. I think if we accept their belief is true (which we don't have to - that's my choice), then lots of other things follow which remind us that canon is incomplete and only ever telling a simplified summary of the story. And those things don't have to contradict them being hunters/gatherers when in human form. They do require me to depart from the standard Hsunchen Rune spell template, but I'm fine with that.

[JRE]

The main advantage of the human form is hands, that in Glorantha means magic in addition to tools. What would be the death ratio for a hunter gatherer people if pregnancy has no risk for mother and child, most wounds are trivial to recover and disease is not a problem. You can kill a bear or other predator before it gets close to the herd, and with almost no risk to yourself. Carrying capacity of land changes a lot, and band sizes as well. And that benefits also the reindeers in normal reindeer form. 

Magic means that no part of Glorantha really resembles our earth in ancient times. It may well resemble hollywood or TV ancient times, so it is not so bad for playing into it.

Brian has explained better why we think Uncolings are different from other hsunchen, and that may also explain why they are specified as the strongest in magic. 

I picked the do not eat reindeer choice, which required a solution using magic. It would be quite easy as well to justify the other choice that taking human shape is very energy consuming, so some reindeers give their lives so the Uncolings can remain in human form longer, and get more skilled and more useful to the herd. 

My personal approach to Glorantha is to assume that people seldom lie about themselves in the material we have. Adding unreliable narrators complicates everything, except when it is clear, as in King of Sartar. 

[Brian Duguid]

9 minutes ago, JRE said:

The main advantage of the human form is hands, that in Glorantha means magic in addition to tools.

I'm not sure that's entirely right. In RQG page 314, you can cast Rune magic by reciting an invocation "in the mind", there's no mention of hands or voice (and in any case, any intelligent beast can use Beastspeech). Page 247 requires "arcane sounds and phrases, subtle gestures" etc; which is also ok in beast form. Page 254 allows spirit magic to be cast without touching a focus.

I totally agree that magic changes the way the whole culture should behave, chances of survival etc.

I certainly see tool use as being the main reason why a beast Hsunchen would choose to adopt human form (or human Hsunchen would stay in their normal form), as well as easier communication with outsiders. And there may be limitations from their mythic history as well as choices made through pragmatism.

[Garrik]

OK, four things:

On takes of Glorantha:

I loved the 80's stuff, before the Glorantha: Genertela, when the world was practically empty outside of Apple Lane, Snakepipe Hollow and Pavis. Boy my Glorantha was tangential, based on those supplements!

I loved the late 90's and early 2000's, when many writers were taking Glorantha into many directions. Boy my Glorantha got special, based on those supplements!

Then again I fully understand and support the 'gregging' that happened during/after the Issaries times, when Greg quite strongly said that some things are not part of the real Glorantha, although people can imagine their Glorantha as they like. He obsoleted some of my writings right there. I believe he obsoleted some of his own writings too.

On the need of canon:

That's why I'm (too) careful not to wander far from the GtG. It's our last shared description of Glorantha. I hope we could agree on the reading of that tome, even if it might be contradictory and vague in many places. Otherwise Gloranthan texts start to differ more and more, the utility of each text to other writers decreases, and in the end there is little reason in sharing anything, because it will be incompatible with everyone else's interpretation.

On the Uncolings:

GtG 21: 'The Uncoling reindeer folk believe that they are reindeer who just happen to be able to turn into humans.'

The most literal part of this problematic sentence about Uncolings, for me, is 'believe'. How often do we read that Gloranthans believe into something? Usually we read Gloranthans know and feel something is true! The gods and spritis are real - there is no believing or not believing in them! I don't think this one caption moves the Uncolings away from under the general Hsunchen umbrella. Rather, it suggests a (modern) interpretation, it's colouring the Uncolings. So the general text about the Hsunchen is more important, even for the Uncolings, than that one sentence.

There are a couple of other short notes about the Uncolings too, and then the actual but short description on GtG 233, where they 'subsist' on their reindeer herds. I'd say the difference between humans who subsist, and the reindeer who are the base of subsistence, is crystal clear.

And still I have no problem with the Uncolings' animistic belief that they are reindeer in human form. I can imagine a lot of ways how this belief is true, and a lot of cultural/magical practices and mythical spirit-journeys where this belief is practical and really interesting in gaming too.

On shamanistic/animistic experience:

Coming from Finland, with the Kalevalaic runo and the shamanistic aboriginal tradition, I've read a good deal about animistic belief - e.g. when it comes to being a bear, or at least marrying a bear, the forest-man of many names. I'm pretty sure Greg read those same texts, in translation, when he was young and was imagining Glorantha.

The ancient Finns believed in two different souls, of which one could travel outside of the body and lived after death, and the other was inside the body and died with it. The wandering soul could be sometimes within the human body and sometimes outside of it, even in/as an animal. Everyone had this wandering soul, although shamans were needed to guide rookies in their travels. Apparently, mushrooms sometimes were part of these rituals. Perhaps the Uncolings have similar dual souls and conceptualize one of them as reindeer? Reindeer eat a lot of mushrooms...

Also, although I'm an academic, an atheist, and have spent most of my life living in cities, I also have a strong spiritual connection and belonging to nature, of being one with the forest and everything in it. I've got several experiences of merging into nature and moving outside of myself - in a very good way, without 'added substances'. I cannot say I believe in shamanism or the nature as a supernatural being or an otherworld, but those experiences are a real part of me, and have molded me towards what I'm today. Even if I'm also a dry academic. There's much to human mind, and I have no problem in imagining/believing that reindeer can fill half of it. 🙂

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

 Do I read you correctly: before the Storm Age, Tundra and Taiga had no place on Glorantha, but after the Darkness (and the Icebreaking), they now are a permanent - and very large - part in the eastern sub-boreal wasteland?

In a strict reading of the God Learner mythic maps as a sequence of Godtime events, that would be the case.

But however much the God Learners got right, they also got wrong, and those maps in the appendix are an in-world document rather than objective truth reporting.

 

Actually, I found a reference to Taiga in Greg's shamanic origin myth of the Rathori, courtesy of @Brian Duguid when discussing the bear people. But while I tend to treat the Hsunchen myths as some of the objectively oldest, Green Age myths in Glorantha, I have a suspicion that that's just how the Hykimi project their experiences with the world of the Gods War and ultimately Time. "Safelster in the First Age" tells a different primeval beast totem myth, and the Kachasti experience has the story how the Mostali separated Fronela from Ralios raising the Nidan chain between Mt. Nida and Top of the World (according to the God Learner mythic maps the only two pre-existing mountains in the range).

There has to be a mythic reality where there has always been a wintery north, with sparse conifer forest.

But in the God Learner neat and tidy sequence of events and perceptions of the skies etc., no such early era has a place. Himile's Cold may have come into the surface world already in the Golden Age, but then I am fairly certain that so did Xentha's Night, and the blue Sky created by Lorion aided by Annilla regardless of the Artmali/Doraddi myth about the Blue Moon being born in the Underworld to the Dead Sun.

 

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

If everything in Glorantha is mythical, what's the myth of this tundra? The death of Genert? It's simply a northern continuation of the Wasteland & Pent? Yet there was an Aldryami forest in northern Pent after the Dawn, so surely things grow there too? 

The Aldryami presence in Fronela is another such conundrum, as - per God Learner monomyth - it should have been impossible for any forest to reclaim territory yielded by Valind's Glacier, in the dark and cold of the very late Storm Age or the Greater Darkness, and neither in the Gray Age. It appears to me that the Web of Arachne Solara pulled in pieces of Godtime from earlier ages to create the world of the Gray Age, unless Winterwood and the other forests north of the Nidan Mountains have myths about surviving under the ice until it broke.

Sequentiality in Godtime is a big ask, and not guaranteed at all.

 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/rathori-creation-myth/ tells about the first people of the (northwestern) Greatwood, naming an ancestress of the Uncolings as the goddess/great spirit of the taiga, in the north.

The invasion of the oceans already has Togaro as the hot invader and Hudaro as the cold invader, suggesting a presence of Himile's cold in the Northwest. In my sequential crutch for mapping Godtime that invasion is linked to the birth of Umath when the Earth Cube was dunked down as Umath inserted himself between his parents, pushing his mother downward. The Neliomi Sea only separated most of Danmalastan from the Malkioni coast on the flank of Genertela as a consequence of this.

The World of Glorantha yahoogroup (archived at http://glorantha.steff.in) has the discussion of North Pent which sort of plays into the presence as well as absence of Glacier in the north, starting with https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/WorldofGlorantha/2007/4490.html and continuing, with a few contributions by Greg. All pre-Guide, of course, but hinting at multiple truths for the extreme regions of Glorantha.

[Garrik]

Joerg, this is golden. Thank you!

My google-fu with the Well of Daliath was weak. This Rathori creation myth is breathtaking.

The Musician father of the Uncolings puts even more weight on the Kalevalaic/Väinämöinen/Vanemuine interpretation. It seems Greg really had something in that vein in his mind.

And Jalaria, the taiga. This differentiates between Jalaria and Frona, the conifer forest and the mixed forest, and quite probably puts Jalaria north from Frona. The habitats of the reindeer & bear people make sense.

And then there is Tawar, with Pelanda as his/her mother. GtG puts the Tawari in Loskalm. But as the most prominent cattle people their name could include other cattle people too. Apparently all the plains to Pelanda? Or maybe they originated in Pelanda but then moved westward. Some controversy here, so probably Greg played around with the name Tawar.

So the modern Fronela can now be seen as three belts and three peoples: plains and cattle people in the south, mixed forests and bears in the middle, and taiga and reindeer in the north.

Many things might have changed since Greg wrote that. But such food for thought. He had, after all, thought about Fronela!

Thanks again, Joerg!

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

This idea of the Uncoling not being mostly in human form puzzles me.

This is harkening back to Godtime, a more mythical Glorantha than the materialist RuneQuest one you have been discussing.

 

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

I know GtG 21 has this sentence: 'The Uncoling reindeer folk believe that they are reindeer who just happen to be able to turn into humans.' But that is not the only notion on the Uncolings. On the same page, referring to the GtG 20 illustrations, we can also read that 'The Uncolings live in a vast tundra region just below Valind's Glacier. They subsist almost entirely on their herds of reindeer, making use of the entire animal.' And the whole Hsunchen chapter clearly describes Stone Age hunter-gatherers, not animals who happen to take human form time to time. They have clothing and weapons and sophisticated tools, like drums. Yes, they have animal companions/brothers/totems. Doesn't make them animals.

On the Other Side, the Uncolings are reindeers. Under the laws of Time, they are mesolithic hunter-gatherers subsisting on their reindeer herds.

At the grand meeting of Oral-Ta, the Uncolings definitely are wearing furs and possibly felt, and subsist on reindeer they hunt and slaughter. That's when their neighbors visit them, when they are the most open for trading, etc.

 

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

In addition, both the 1988 Glorantha book and that HeroQuest Uncoling description tell of people = humans, with clothing and weapons.

Yes. And for role-playing purposes, thinking of them as humans with just the beast spirit probably is more approachable.

 

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

When people interpret the Uncolings as reindeer, I think they put all too much weight on one sentence, whereas the mass of the text clearly states they are people = humans first. That single sentence is about belief, and probably about spirit-world experience. It doesn't make the Uncolings anymore reindeer than the Darkness connection makes Trolls evil spirits or the Storm rune makes Kolating shamans wind. It's a mythical and magical connotation, not the everyday reality for the great majority of these peoples/races. It's mysticism and shamanism.

Glorantha is made of myth. The Uncolings are renowned for their strong shamans, their closeness to the Spirit World.

In RuneQuest RiG terms, all it takes to take the Uncolings into their spirit world shape is a weak spot where the

 

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

And, referring to that GtG 21 caption, the maps don't have a 'vast tundra region', but the text indicates that the Uncoling habitat is such. I think this clearly shows that the idea of the Uncolings and the mapping of their habitat do not connect. The Uncoling are not reindeer, but people who herd reindeer.

They don't herd the reindeer (other than keeping a few companion beasts), but they don't herd the rest - they follow them on their migrations. They hunt some of the herds, but they don't capture them for slaughter, but kill (or at least lethally wound) them with hunting weapons. Anything else would lead to them no longer being Hsunchen but pastoralists like many of the Hill Barbarians (or the Pentans).

 

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

They have beliefs and spiritual connection to their animals, and some are shape-changers. But they are humans. If there are 300,000 of them, their tundra habitat must indeed be huge, as they must subsist on millions of reindeer.

Yes. I made that calculation, too. And then I looked at their territory, and accepted the extent of the glacier.

Then I looked at the sentence on p.21, and analogous to other populations in Glorantha like the people of Mani Tor, I suggested that the Uncolings too use a Godtime solution to solve the conundrum.

Having lived inside the Saamelag north of the Arctic Circle, I want to point out that tundra is not the limit for reindeer habitat in northern Europe, but the open pine-and-birch "savannah" all the way down to central Sweden's highlands are within the traditional reindeer range, and used to be the reindeer-Sami economic zone before agriculture claimed much of that. The Rathori creation myth associates the Uncolings with "taiga", a term I wouldn't quite use for the environment there.

 

5 hours ago, Garrik said:

This is very haphazard world-creation. Clearly, northern Fronela and the Uncolings require a lot more development to make these ends meet. But making the Uncolings reindeer is a ridiculous and counterfactual solution to this problem.

The solution you suggest would make them had to distinguish from the mesolithic pastoralists of Eol/Thrice Blessed who are suspected to be the Eferventes people roaming Greater Darkness Peloria when the Glacier extended further eastward, and also after the eastern half was cut off by Chaos and deteriorated. At least that's the assumption made on the Glorantha Wikia:

https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Eferventes

categorized as Eolian peoples (and the admin of the wikia is spending enormous amounts of time tinkering with those categories, taking them very seriously for a function that isn't anywhere near user-friendly).

 

YGWV, MGWV. I went for the shapeshifter approach implicit in the "bearwalker", "werepig" etc. entries in the RQ2 creatures list that had Telmori as werewolves.

[Brian Duguid]

2 hours ago, Garrik said:

And still I have no problem with the Uncolings' animistic belief that they are reindeer in human form.

This is the core of where we're differing in opinion I think. That's explicitly not what it says they believe. They believe they are reindeer who are able to turn into humans. That's really very different. And it's contrasted in the text with the Flari, who believe they are humans who can turn into owls.

It's not directly about who they think they are. It's about what they can transform into. Which in turn begs an assumption about the form they spend most of their time in.

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Brian Duguid
Expanded to include comparison with the Flari.

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Garrik said:

Do I read you correctly: before the Storm Age, Tundra and Taiga had no place on Glorantha, but after the Darkness (and the Icebreaking), they now are a permanent - and very large - part in the eastern sub-boreal wasteland?

Probably, that is correct.

8 hours ago, Garrik said:

If everything in Glorantha is mythical, what's the myth of this tundra? The death of Genert? It's simply a northern continuation of the Wasteland & Pent? 

Before, this was all grassland or forest. Then Valind rolled over it. When he retreated all we had was wasteland. So, we appealed to [Whichever local goddess is important] and she gave us moss and lichens that turned the wasteland into bountiful tundra.

 

 

[Garrik]

 

On 3/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, Joerg said:

This is harkening back to Godtime, a more mythical Glorantha than the materialist RuneQuest one you have been discussing.

What I find important regarding Greg's Daliath article about the Hsunchen origin myth is that Greg introduced the concept of taiga, and put that in relation to Fronela, but not equal to Rathorela. I think this is an interesting and sensible opening. How we read & imagine & develop the concept of Fronelan taiga, is the next question.

I'm not disucssing a materialist RuneQuest Glorantha. My hobby starting point really is around the year 2000, with the Issaries/HeroWars renaissance, and the late Digest & TotRM. That was very much a time when population numbers and maps were discussed. At the same time, it was the time when we really started to discuss & understand the mythical in Glorantha (and either disagree or get very lofty). So I see 'materialist' and 'mythical' very much walk hand in hand in making sense of Glorantha.

 

On 3/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, Joerg said:

On the Other Side, the Uncolings are reindeers. Under the laws of Time, they are mesolithic hunter-gatherers subsisting on their reindeer herds.

At the grand meeting of Oral-Ta, the Uncolings definitely are wearing furs and possibly felt, and subsist on reindeer they hunt and slaughter. That's when their neighbors visit them, when they are the most open for trading, etc.

Yes, agree on this. Totally.

 

On 3/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, Joerg said:

And for role-playing purposes, thinking of them as humans with just the beast spirit probably is more approachable.

That is definitely the angle taken in the GtG, and derives directly from Glorantha: Genertela box. It's the view Greg has given us about Glorantha, and is not connected to any RPG system.

That said, I wouldn't use the word 'just' in defining 'the beast spirit'. There's a lot in here, not to be belittled.

 

On 3/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, Joerg said:

They don't herd the reindeer (other than keeping a few companion beasts), but they don't herd the rest - they follow them on their migrations. They hunt some of the herds, but they don't capture them for slaughter, but kill (or at least lethally wound) them with hunting weapons. Anything else would lead to them no longer being Hsunchen but pastoralists like many of the Hill Barbarians (or the Pentans).

Totally agree. The verb 'to herd' in regard to the Uncolings and their reindeer (or the Tawari and their 'cattle') should not be read in the modern sense. Not sure if the English language has a single, good, and generally understood word for what the Uncolings do. But follow-migrate-hunt is how I see it too. Maybe just 'hunt', as in hunter-gatherers? 🙂

 

On 3/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, Joerg said:

Having lived inside the Saamelag north of the Arctic Circle, I want to point out that tundra is not the limit for reindeer habitat in northern Europe, but the open pine-and-birch "savannah" all the way down to central Sweden's highlands are within the traditional reindeer range, and used to be the reindeer-Sami economic zone before agriculture claimed much of that. The Rathori creation myth associates the Uncolings with "taiga", a term I wouldn't quite use for the environment there.

Definitely. Modern vegetation zones recognize several different types of tundra and taiga. The habitat of the Uncolings surely encompasses several different types. Real world reindeer (and caribou) are a migratory animal who use different habitats in different seasons, and I think this holds true in Glorantha too.

Btw, some of my ancestors were part-time reindeer-herders in the forest/taiga (but not Saami). 😉
 

On 3/4/2022 at 4:54 PM, Joerg said:

The solution you suggest would make them had to distinguish from the mesolithic pastoralists of Eol/Thrice Blessed

Presume you mean 'hard to distinguish'.

No, I don't hold this view, and haven't propagated it. Being Hsunchen, the Uncolings are very different from the reindeer people of Eol. But they are humans.

I'm trying to lay the groundwork before even starting to dream about the spiritual practicalities.

It's a pity there isn't more published about the Hsunchen myths and their practical shamanism & shapechanging. Glorantha being mythical, the Hsunchen description in the GtG is actually remarkably materialist. Clearly, this is an undeveloped part of the Hsunchen. It will be interesting to see how Brian develops this.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Garrik
clarity, typos

[Eff]

A couple of minor notes:

-Uncolings are probably otherkin in a more literal sense than most hsunchen/xunzhen/hykimi/mykihi. That's how I take the one line about their beliefs- they presumably believe they're reindeer that have become humans for some purpose. This doesn't require that they spend all or most of their time in a particular shape, and of course the intent of canon Glorantha is that only a minority of hsunchen can change shape and only for short periods of time, meaning that Uncolings in that framework would be spending perhaps two or three hours at most in human bodies. So the canon text is not helpful.

-Pastoral people normally don't get much of their diet from eating the meat of the animal they herd, because their milk is usually so much more valuable. Reindeer do of course eat meat (famously, trampling lemmings deliberately and eating them) but cannibalism isn't usually observed among them... but sacramental cannibalism is hardly unknown among human cultures, so Uncolings engaging in what appears to outsiders to be base cannibalism is explicable, even if they probably don't eat that much reindeer meat. 

[Brian Duguid]

23 hours ago, Garrik said:

It will be interesting to see how Brian develops this.

Maybe I will come round to the view that the Uncolings follow a similar Hsunchen culture to other tribes, you never know! I'd be interested in the ecological case: why would it be more plausible that 300,000 humans can survive in this space than that 300,000 reindeer could? I struggle with that one, even though I'm no fan of trying to justify Glorantha in conventional ecological terms.

In writing about the Hsunchen, I've found I've had to think harder about shamanic and prehistoric culture more generally. Lots of background reading, which will take some time to wash through into the writing over coming months. Much of what David Scott has posted on BRP about how shamanism works in Glorantha has been especially helpful.

17 hours ago, Eff said:

-Uncolings are probably otherkin in a more literal sense than most hsunchen/xunzhen/hykimi/mykihi. That's how I take the one line about their beliefs- they presumably believe they're reindeer that have become humans for some purpose. This doesn't require that they spend all or most of their time in a particular shape, and of course the intent of canon Glorantha is that only a minority of hsunchen can change shape and only for short periods of time, meaning that Uncolings in that framework would be spending perhaps two or three hours at most in human bodies. So the canon text is not helpful.

I think I've exhausted this point, but I'll say it again because it remains at the heart of the possible divergence here. In my view, that's not what GtG says the Uncolings believe. "Have become humans" and "are able to turn into humans" are different. The former belief is straightforward and in line with general Hsunchen culture as described. However, the latter belief will be difficult to maintain if the evidence contradicts it on a daily basis. Read literally, it is not a belief about the people's essence in either the mundane or the spirit world, it is a belief about transformations that can take place in the present day.

I'd be interested in any view that can more clearly articulate a case for the Uncolings being humans who believe they "are reindeer who just happen to be to turn into humans". Nothing I've seen yet in this thread really fits that, for me at least.

I think there is an underlying issue with whether the game system (Hsunchen in human form who can turn into beasts, usually for a short time only) can support (or is determining) the game-world narrative. In GtG, the fundamental thing that unites the Hsunchen is not their transformation ability, it is that they "claim as ancestors and kinfolk" their beast companions. GtG is clear that the shamans guide their people to connect to their beast heritage and that many Hsunchen cannot fully transform. It says nothing about how long they transform for.

I'm exploring the approach that the way the people works must make sense first; if the rules need tweaking to address that in any case, so be it. I struggle with the idea, for example, that the Ri-si woodpecker people or the (unnamed) Opossum folk partially transform into giant versions of their totem beasts. I think some of the Fiwan tribes of Pamaltela (the Sun Fish, Fire Wren, Frog and Fish Eagle peoples) also point towards a wider variety of animal relationships and transformations than is set out in the "template" cultural description.

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Maybe I will come round to the view that the Uncolings follow a similar Hsunchen culture to other tribes, you never know! I'd be interested in the ecological case: why would it be more plausible that 300,000 humans can survive in this space than that 300,000 reindeer could? I struggle with that one, even though I'm no fan of trying to justify Glorantha in conventional ecological terms.

In writing about the Hsunchen, I've found I've had to think harder about shamanic and prehistoric culture more generally. Lots of background reading, which will take some time to wash through into the writing over coming months. Much of what David Scott has posted on BRP about how shamanism works in Glorantha has been especially helpful.

I think I've exhausted this point, but I'll say it again because it remains at the heart of the possible divergence here. In my view, that's not what GtG says the Uncolings believe. "Have become humans" and "are able to turn into humans" are different. The former belief is straightforward and in line with general Hsunchen culture as described. However, the latter belief will be difficult to maintain if the evidence contradicts it on a daily basis. Read literally, it is not a belief about the people's essence in either the mundane or the spirit world, it is a belief about transformations that can take place in the present day.

I'd be interested in any view that can more clearly articulate a case for the Uncolings being humans who believe they "are reindeer who just happen to be to turn into humans". Nothing I've seen yet in this thread really fits that, for me at least.

I think there is an underlying issue with whether the game system (Hsunchen in human form who can turn into beasts, usually for a short time only) can support (or is determining) the game-world narrative. In GtG, the fundamental thing that unites the Hsunchen is not their transformation ability, it is that they "claim as ancestors and kinfolk" their beast companions. GtG is clear that the shamans guide their people to connect to their beast heritage and that many Hsunchen cannot fully transform. It says nothing about how long they transform for.

I'm exploring the approach that the way the people works must make sense first; if the rules need tweaking to address that in any case, so be it. I struggle with the idea, for example, that the Ri-si woodpecker people or the (unnamed) Opossum folk partially transform into giant versions of their totem beasts. I think some of the Fiwan tribes of Pamaltela (the Sun Fish, Fire Wren, Frog and Fish Eagle peoples) also point towards a wider variety of animal relationships and transformations than is set out in the "template" cultural description.

I didn't say that they're humans. I just think that if the typical experience of the Uncolings was that they were reindeer who occasionally slip on a human suit that this would be reflected in how the text and art treats them, and it really isn't. The experience outsiders and readers get of the Uncolings is that they're hominid in large enough numbers to create temporary cities when they come together and are see by outsiders as similar to their Rathori neighbors and not as an example of something like the fox woman of Beast Valley or the giant otters of the New Fens. So that's why I lean towards the default Uncolings being primarily hominid in form when experienced phenomenologically. 

[Garrik]

4 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I'd be interested in the ecological case: why would it be more plausible that 300,000 humans can survive in this space than that 300,000 reindeer could? I struggle with that one, even though I'm no fan of trying to justify Glorantha in conventional ecological terms.

I have precisely the same problem. The more I think about the ways reindeer and humans survive in tundra and taiga, the less reason I see for being a human first instead of a reindeer first, if you have the choice. There's the added problem of carrying around all the human items in reindeer form.

Three really important things regarding survival that make human form preferable are:
1) conflict: spears and bows are much more efficient than antlers
2) food/resource stockpiling is easier if you have hands and can build storage
3) when you cannot get or stockpile reindeer food, hunting and fishing are easier with hands

Reindeer natural counters to this lack of technology is that they breed & grow up fast, that there are many of them, that they have keen senses to find nutrition, and that they can lose nearly half of their body weight (fat, muscle) during the winter. They are superbly adapted survivalists. Humans need vastly more resources in order to survive in the arctic.

But Greg - or Jeff - wanted to have 300,000 Uncolings, and to me, their description emphasizes that they're humans. I see no way around that in the big picture, even if one sentence in the GtG suggests they might believe they're reindeer.

Then again, looking at that piece of land in Fronela between the Winterwood in the east, the Upriver/Kingdom of War in the west, Valind's Glacier in the north and Loskalm/Akem in the south, I'm wondering if even 300,000 reindeer is too much. Haven't done the math, and comparison with our world is always problematic, but I still have this nagging feeling.

That's why I feel MGWV, even in the very basics. I'd say that the easiest thing would be to just cut their numbers. Personally, I'm a fan of more tundra/taiga in the north, so would push back Valind's Glacier and create a habitat to really sustain the culture. But this is all personal preference.

 

4 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

In writing about the Hsunchen, I've found I've had to think harder about shamanic and prehistoric culture more generally. Lots of background reading, which will take some time to wash through into the writing over coming months. Much of what David Scott has posted on BRP about how shamanism works in Glorantha has been especially helpful.

I'm personally quite aware that I'll never be able to truly understand shamanism, if just because of the lack of first-hand experience and no need to believe in supernatural. In a funny way, understanding Gloranthan shamanism may be easier, because we can make it up. 🙂

There are interesting studies on North American, Siberian and Finnic shamanism, which go back to real interviews and anthropology.

I haven't read David's postings. Obviously something to read.

 

Of the Hsunchen in general, I think their peculiarity in Glorantha must be connected to the Beast rune. IIRC, they're the only shamanistic culture with the Beast rune at the centre of their tradition, in addition to the Spirit rune. Or is that just a game mechanic?

How do hunters identify with the animal they're hunting? How do they live with that animal after they've killed it? How can you be both the hunter and the prey at the same time? At least our perspective on cannibalism must be different with the (herbivore) Hsunchen.

I'm aware of old Finnish folk beliefs and rituals about interacting with bears in this sense, recorded in the early 19th century. But they're already quite 'modern', and the people who sung the recorded runo were not primarily hunter-gatherers, and their belief system was already Christianized. Anthropology on the Siberian and North American/Canadan indigenous people probably lends better comparison points.

I think the main difference between real world hunter-gatherer shamanism/animism and Gloranthan Hsunchen shamanism/animism is that the Hsunchen are totally about one animal. Historical real world shamanism/animism is more about the ability to transform (in the spiritual world) into almost any useful animal form/spirit, to achieve what that animal/spirit does well (in the real world or in the spirit world or in a myth). Of course this doesn't help, as it makes comparison even more problematic.

My only real suggestion or plea is try to keep your feet on the ground, and don't make the Hsunchen too lofty, to the point of being goofy and completely alien. Leave that to the Elder Races. I think Greg was wise in ditching some of the Digest and Issaries period theories. The direct republication in the GtG of most of Glorantha: Genertela solidifies a less 'illuminated' view of Glorantha - something that is understandable and usable to a broader gamer public, and not just the Gloranthan erudites. I find that's wisdom.

[Brian Duguid]

39 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Three really important things regarding survival that make human form preferable are:
1) conflict: spears and bows are much more efficient than antlers
2) food/resource stockpiling is easier if you have hands and can build storage
3) when you cannot get or stockpile reindeer food, hunting and fishing are easier with hands

Reindeer natural counters to this lack of technology is that they breed & grow up fast, that there are many of them, that they have keen senses to find nutrition, and that they can lose nearly half of their body weight (fat, muscle) during the winter. They are superbly adapted survivalists. Humans need vastly more resources in order to survive in the arctic.

I agree, although obviously reindeer don't normally stockpile food. One of the things that GtG says about Hsunchen societies is that they reflect their totem animal's behaviours. So "herd-animal" Hsunchen have herd-like societies. What could that mean? For me it suggests they value group survival over the survival of individuals; and adopt a "safety-in-numbers" approach to conflict. It might be better for survival for a weaker member of the herd to be picked off by a predator if the stronger members can flee to safety. Self-defence with spears and bows is then a bonus to survival, not a substitute for use of antlers (which will mainly be used to resolve in-group conflict).

45 minutes ago, Garrik said:

There are interesting studies on North American, Siberian and Finnic shamanism, which go back to real interviews and anthropology.

I'll be working my way through Mircea Eliade's Shamanism just as soon as I'm done with Lewis-Williams and Pearce's Inside the Neolithic Mind. Both interesting in very different ways.

47 minutes ago, Garrik said:

I haven't read David's postings. Obviously something to read.

A couple of good examples:

48 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Of the Hsunchen in general, I think their peculiarity in Glorantha must be connected to the Beast rune. IIRC, they're the only shamanistic culture with the Beast rune at the centre of their tradition, in addition to the Spirit rune. Or is that just a game mechanic?

Views may differ, but my view: first there were Plants, then there Beasts, then were Humans, each arising from the various Form Runes. Several canon sources suggest that at one time there were Hsunchen or Hsunchen-antecedents who could take both beast and human form; or for whom the exact form was ill-defined. Some Malkioni suggest that most of the world was like this, except themselves and a few other "true" humans (see the Xeotam Dialogues). In any case, there is an in-world mythic parallel to evolution from plant -> animal -> human. I see Hsunchen as simply the set of humans who never lost touch with the Beast rune; and all other humans as having lost it. It's therefore more than a game mechanic: it ties into their distaste for agriculture, and the known Gloranthan history where numerous beast peoples (Entruli, Pendali etc) became gradually civilised and sufficiently lost their Beast rune connection that they were no longer Hsunchen (some of this having already occurred pre-Dawn). Cults such as Yinkin and Odayla may be distortions or variations on Hsunchen Beast tradition.

58 minutes ago, Garrik said:

I think the main difference between real world hunter-gatherer shamanism/animism and Gloranthan Hsunchen shamanism/animism is that the Hsunchen are totally about one animal. Historical real world shamanism/animism is more about the ability to transform (in the spiritual world) into almost any useful animal form/spirit, to achieve what that animal/spirit does well (in the real world or in the spirit world or in a myth). Of course this doesn't help, as it makes comparison even more problematic.

I think there's interesting insight here into what makes Hsunchen spirit practice different to other Gloranthan shamanic spirit traditions. All the animists have shamans and therefore all must recognise the Horned Man / Horned God. But the Hsunchen have a sense of ethnic purity that others do not, and although they can deal with many spirits, their beast relationship and magic is limited to their core ethnic cult / tradition (Rathor, Pralor etc).

1 hour ago, Garrik said:

My only real suggestion or plea is try to keep your feet on the ground, and don't make the Hsunchen too lofty, to the point of being goofy and completely alien.

Hey, I've even written a section on Hsunchen character generation 🙂.

[Eff]

47 minutes ago, Garrik said:

I have precisely the same problem. The more I think about the ways reindeer and humans survive in tundra and taiga, the less reason I see for being a human first instead of a reindeer first, if you have the choice. There's the added problem of carrying around all the human items in reindeer form.

Three really important things regarding survival that make human form preferable are:
1) conflict: spears and bows are much more efficient than antlers
2) food/resource stockpiling is easier if you have hands and can build storage
3) when you cannot get or stockpile reindeer food, hunting and fishing are easier with hands

Reindeer natural counters to this lack of technology is that they breed & grow up fast, that there are many of them, that they have keen senses to find nutrition, and that they can lose nearly half of their body weight (fat, muscle) during the winter. They are superbly adapted survivalists. Humans need vastly more resources in order to survive in the arctic.

But Greg - or Jeff - wanted to have 300,000 Uncolings, and to me, their description emphasizes that they're humans. I see no way around that in the big picture, even if one sentence in the GtG suggests they might believe they're reindeer.

Then again, looking at that piece of land in Fronela between the Winterwood in the east, the Upriver/Kingdom of War in the west, Valind's Glacier in the north and Loskalm/Akem in the south, I'm wondering if even 300,000 reindeer is too much. Haven't done the math, and comparison with our world is always problematic, but I still have this nagging feeling.

That's why I feel MGWV, even in the very basics. I'd say that the easiest thing would be to just cut their numbers. Personally, I'm a fan of more tundra/taiga in the north, so would push back Valind's Glacier and create a habitat to really sustain the culture. But this is all personal preference.

 

I'm personally quite aware that I'll never be able to truly understand shamanism, if just because of the lack of first-hand experience and no need to believe in supernatural. In a funny way, understanding Gloranthan shamanism may be easier, because we can make it up. 🙂

There are interesting studies on North American, Siberian and Finnic shamanism, which go back to real interviews and anthropology.

I haven't read David's postings. Obviously something to read.

 

Of the Hsunchen in general, I think their peculiarity in Glorantha must be connected to the Beast rune. IIRC, they're the only shamanistic culture with the Beast rune at the centre of their tradition, in addition to the Spirit rune. Or is that just a game mechanic?

How do hunters identify with the animal they're hunting? How do they live with that animal after they've killed it? How can you be both the hunter and the prey at the same time? At least our perspective on cannibalism must be different with the (herbivore) Hsunchen.

I'm aware of old Finnish folk beliefs and rituals about interacting with bears in this sense, recorded in the early 19th century. But they're already quite 'modern', and the people who sung the recorded runo were not primarily hunter-gatherers, and their belief system was already Christianized. Anthropology on the Siberian and North American/Canadan indigenous people probably lends better comparison points.

I think the main difference between real world hunter-gatherer shamanism/animism and Gloranthan Hsunchen shamanism/animism is that the Hsunchen are totally about one animal. Historical real world shamanism/animism is more about the ability to transform (in the spiritual world) into almost any useful animal form/spirit, to achieve what that animal/spirit does well (in the real world or in the spirit world or in a myth). Of course this doesn't help, as it makes comparison even more problematic.

My only real suggestion or plea is try to keep your feet on the ground, and don't make the Hsunchen too lofty, to the point of being goofy and completely alien. Leave that to the Elder Races. I think Greg was wise in ditching some of the Digest and Issaries period theories. The direct republication in the GtG of most of Glorantha: Genertela solidifies a less 'illuminated' view of Glorantha - something that is understandable and usable to a broader gamer public, and not just the Gloranthan erudites. I find that's wisdom.

Some thoughts on hsunchen religious practice: 

One definition used for shamanism in the real world is that the shaman is someone who mediates between worlds or communities or types of people. Hsunchen are all in a liminal space overlapping two types of people or two worlds. So one way to characterize their religion is that whereas shamans of other cultures are needed to interlocute with spirits outside of the immediate community/world (wyters, possibly ancestor spirits), hsunchen have kinship relationships with animals and animal spirits and so can interact with them as family and call upon the obligations of family relationships. 

And so hsunchen shamans are necessary to interact safely with spirits from outside the twin communities, but also probably somewhat more necessary because that liminal status means acceptance as human or animal is potentially contentious. A lot of mediating is necessary!

[Garrik]

29 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

One of the things that GtG says about Hsunchen societies is that they reflect their totem animal's behaviours. So "herd-animal" Hsunchen have herd-like societies. What could that mean? For me it suggests they value group survival over the survival of individuals; and adopt a "safety-in-numbers" approach to conflict. It might be better for survival for a weaker member of the herd to be picked off by a predator if the stronger members can flee to safety. Self-defence with spears and bows is then a bonus to survival, not a substitute for use of antlers (which will mainly be used to resolve in-group conflict).

Yeah.

An interesting thing about reindeer is that their herds can vary in size a lot. From a mere half dozen up to thousands, even hundreds of thousands. Sometimes males travel all alone or in small groups. Some subspecies are sedentary (only regional migrations), others are migratory. They're social and adaptable animals. A lot of that behavior can be seen rather human. So the basic units and groupings of the Uncoling society can remain about the same, whether they are in reindeer or human form.

Reindeer also use their antlers to threaten & fight predators, alone or in groups. Males are known to threaten even humans during the rut time. Usually, reindeer avoid and flee, but they can also put up a fight. Again, an easy bridge between reindeer and human behavior.

The classic experience in Lapland are reindeer walking on the road. Often, they are not the least afraid of cars, but instead seem to accept them into their herd. Been slowly driving alongside a group of reindeer for a good mile or so, before they chose to leave the road. (These are herd reindeer, so more accustomed to humans. But so would be the Uncoling reindeer, especially if the reindeer are the Uncolings.) Probably a bit like getting stuck into a herd of sheep, but the reindeer groups tend to be very small, even just lone reindeer. But they feel they own the road.

Dunno if these real world parallels help. I'm listing them to show that the basic units and behavior of human and reindeer society need not be very different.

 

29 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

I think there's interesting insight here into what makes Hsunchen spirit practice different to other Gloranthan shamanic spirit traditions. All the animists have shamans and therefore all must recognise the Horned Man / Horned God. But the Hsunchen have a sense of ethnic purity that others do not, and although they can deal with many spirits, their beast relationship and magic is limited to their core ethnic cult / tradition (Rathor, Pralor etc).

I'd imagine the Hsunchen approach their spirit world more instinctively than other shamans. They probably initiate quite young. (I don't mean 'initiate' as in game terms, but as in learning about the spirit world.) Although their tradition might be more limited, it is also more accessible and more natural, implicit.

Could their animal companions be their spirit companions too?

In real-world shamanistic spirit-travel the human body remains in this world, whereas the spirit is led by an (animal) guide or becomes that animal guide. For the Hsunchen, the difference seems to be that the body turns into the animal. There is no body left behind, and the spirit in the animal form is physical.

This is so much more concrete than in real world shamanism, and IIRC more concrete than most other Gloranthan shamanism. (How many non-Hsunchen shamans can shape-change, how often, and into which forms? Is it connected to their spirit tradition rune? Eg. Kolatings can physically become wind/storm?)

 

29 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Hey, I've even written a section on Hsunchen character generation 🙂.

Cool. 🙂

Another thing I believe could be immensely helpful is a one-pager on how to think and what to do when playing a Hsunchen character. Real guidelines, three to six bullet points: do this, try to make this happen, approach dilemmas like this, approach other people like this, etc. Imagine a hand-out you can give to a new player in a convention, in addition to a possible character sheet with game stats.

Writing such a condensed first-hand synopsis could be a great method for writing the whole treatise, as it forces you to constantly focus on practical experience of a Hsunchen.

[Garrik]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

Some thoughts on hsunchen religious practice: 

One definition used for shamanism in the real world is that the shaman is someone who mediates between worlds or communities or types of people. Hsunchen are all in a liminal space overlapping two types of people or two worlds. So one way to characterize their religion is that whereas shamans of other cultures are needed to interlocute with spirits outside of the immediate community/world (wyters, possibly ancestor spirits), hsunchen have kinship relationships with animals and animal spirits and so can interact with them as family and call upon the obligations of family relationships. 

And so hsunchen shamans are necessary to interact safely with spirits from outside the twin communities, but also probably somewhat more necessary because that liminal status means acceptance as human or animal is potentially contentious. A lot of mediating is necessary!

Yes, this is plausible.

My idea, just above, was somewhat different: not much mediation is needed, because within the specific spirit/animal tradition, all shape-changers are intuitively experts. After all, they are that other form/spirit too. So once the shaman has helped the Hsunchen to make this knowledge and feeling practical, there might be no need for further mediation. In other words, the shamans awaken their kin, and after the initial awakening, the shape-changing might work without mediation from outside.

Just an idea.

[Eff]

10 minutes ago, Garrik said:

Yes, this is plausible.

My idea, just above, was somewhat different: not much mediation is needed, because within the specific spirit/animal tradition, all shape-changers are intuitively experts. After all, they are that other form/spirit too. So once the shaman has helped the Hsunchen to make this knowledge and feeling practical, there might be no need for further mediation. In other words, the shamans awaken their kin, and after the initial awakening, the shape-changing might work without mediation from outside.

Just an idea.

Oh, I'm not talking about shapechanging, which I think should be under the control of the individual person for the non-Telmori hsunchen, I mean the general everyday religious practice everyone in Glorantha needs to engage in- the spiritual aspects of survival, having to interact with the world outside your immediate social environment, having to hedge against the unexpected, etc.