Running Borderlands in RQG (Borderlands spoilers within)

[Zit]

After 1625, the Sun County may like to expend and try to seize the abandonned Lunar settlements. Rone's grant lands are bordering the County, so why not replace Raus with an official from the Sun County ?

[Ian Absentia]

On 3/13/2022 at 4:30 AM, SJB said:

I think that the most difficult part of a conversion is that Borderlands emulated a 1970s Sam Peckinpah western sensibility. Does one wish to replicate that mood? 

Arguably, yes.  Though it is problematic, isn't it?  The tone can trend toward other cinematic or historical sensibilities, of course.  That's in the nature of any GM.

On 3/13/2022 at 4:30 AM, SJB said:

What’s the post-genocidal endgame?

If the extended timeline is any indication, it's waiting for Argrath & Co. to re-establish the White Bull Brotherhood and turn the genocidal tables on the Lunar settlers*.

!i!

Edited March 14, 2022 by Ian Absentia
*No, wait, it's just ethnic cleansing, not necessarily genocide. And if you first ask them to leave, it's not even that, right?

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, Zit said:

After 1625, the Sun County may like to expend and try to seize the abandonned Lunar settlements. Rone's grant lands are bordering the County, so why not replace Raus with an official from the Sun County ?

"The Sun Dome is committed to the stability of commerce along the Zola Fel and the prosperity of all peoples of Prax."

Well played, sir!

!i!

[Joerg]

18 hours ago, Zit said:

After 1625, the Sun County may like to expend and try to seize the abandonned Lunar settlements. Rone's grant lands are bordering the County, so why not replace Raus with an official from the Sun County ?

That urge to expand implies that there is a population pressure after the starvation etc. of the Windstop. Is there? Or are there any plots in Sun County so marginal that moving to Weis Cut would be preferable?

[Brian Duguid]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this timely and relevant blog post yet:

https://beer-with-teeth.games/updating-borderlands-i-mechanics/

[icebrand]

Im running borderlands! 10/10 one of the best rpg books ever!

I replaced the duke for an exiled Orlanthi petty king.

One scenario per season! Then the roleplay with settlers/nobilty/people @ horn gate, and the morocanth + agimori

The map is amazing!

By Revenge of Muriah have the PCs at rune level, or replacements ready lol.

5 eyes is... Dare i say impossible? With a party of 4 initiates (but also i use my NPCs very well, and our dungeons are no hidden rolls, and everyone including me plays to win). 

So depending on your group size/expertise you may want to add some easier adventures in-between, with the tribes and horns gate it's not hard to come up with something, If you really need.

[Hteph]

On 3/9/2022 at 12:30 PM, svensson said:

Building on @Akhôrahil's point, if you're really feeling ambitious, you could try to knit the whole damned thing together. 

Generation 1: Make up a Sartarite clan that was evicted from their lands for being rebels [ca. 1603-10 or so]. The clan is exiled down the Pavis Road en masse. The player characters are young adults who have to make their way in a world with only a shattered clan behind them.

At this point you play through Borderlands and the other RQ2 Prax box sets. By the time you finish that, your adventurers are very likely coming up on retirement to home and family life as their clan begins to reassemble itself. Those are the parents of the next set of PCs.

Generation2: The PC's play through River of Cradles, some Sun County material, and Shadows on the Borderlands, maybe even Strangers in Prax. By the time they finish that, the grandchildren of the first PC's will take part in the Liberation of Sartar, the Dragonrise, etc.

For those third generation characters, you completely skip the Family History section of RQG's generation process, using the character actions of the previous two campaigns to set the Family Events, Passions, Heirlooms etc.

But this is admittedly a HUGE undertaking.

This was more or less the foundation of the campaign I was thinking of running before my family situation changed drastically. But I’ll hope I can continue to work on that on some point in the future. The work is mainly to find weak points that needs some thinking (Condor Crags and Fly is one example).

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Hteph said:

This was more or less the foundation of the campaign I was thinking of running before my family situation changed drastically. But I’ll hope I can continue to work on that on some point in the future. The work is mainly to find weak points that needs some thinking (Condor Crags and Fly is one example).

Well, I hope your family life sorts itself out to everyone's benefit, though I freely admit that that is much easier said than done. Family issues are... difficult.

As for Prax and so forth, @Ian Thomson is currently writing an update on the RQ2 Pavis and Big Rubble boxed sets. They will include two adventures during the time of God Learners and Robcradle and one [or more] adventures in 1619 to tie it all together.

In regards to your Condor Crags and Fly concerns, those can be quickly solved. One of the Condors has an awakened intelligence and is Rune Priest of Yelm. While the Priest doesn't complain about people scaling the cliffs the hard way, he has a habit of casting Dismiss Magic [backed by the POW of an Allied Spirit] on those who to 'cheat' the quest. And it's a long way down... 😉

[Hteph]

9 hours ago, svensson said:

 

In regards to your Condor Crags and Fly concerns, those can be quickly solved. One of the Condors has an awakened intelligence and is Rune Priest of Yelm. While the Priest doesn't complain about people scaling the cliffs the hard way, he has a habit of casting Dismiss Magic [backed by the POW of an Allied Spirit] on those who to 'cheat' the quest. And it's a long way down... 😉

Yes exactly these details, I like to have rumors of this planted in advance, perhaps in a folklore snippet if there is a Prax Character or a bawdy nomad song about a stupid Orlanthi sung around a campfire to provoke the PCs.

Just a reading through and making notes about these things and making the weave. I always prefer the info being channeled through a character (of course supported by me as I don’t demand them to memorize things, but it they just starts “I heard a story about Condor Crag and a stupid Orlanthi” and the looks expectant at me … if not making up a story on their own, with some injections from me. They where a good bunch, probably impossible to get them together again now sadly). 

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Hteph said:

Yes exactly these details, I like to have rumors of this planted in advance, perhaps in a folklore snippet if there is a Prax Character or a bawdy nomad song about a stupid Orlanthi sung around a campfire to provoke the PCs.

Just a reading through and making notes about these things and making the weave. I always prefer the info being channeled through a character (of course supported by me as I don’t demand them to memorize things, but it they just starts “I heard a story about Condor Crag and a stupid Orlanthi” and the looks expectant at me … if not making up a story on their own, with some injections from me. They where a good bunch, probably impossible to get them together again now sadly). 

Well, let me be clear here... There isn't an intelligent condor in the scenario as written. You add one to prevent the characters from doing it the easy way.

Characters playing in Borderlands are Initiates, but RQG makes Rune Points renewable by Initiates with just a few skill rolls. This is much different from the one-use Rune spells of RQ2 and RQ3.

So, you let the rumor be known that at least some of the condors on the Condor Crags are awakened and at least one has been seen casting spells. At that point, the players have been duly warned. Perhaps the sentient condor even gives them his blessing as the players get ready to descend and warns them of an impeding attack at the base of the Crags.

[Hteph]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, let me be clear here... There isn't an intelligent condor in the scenario as written. You add one to prevent the characters from doing it the easy way.

I did understand that … I just found it as an good example of these small adjustments that may be needed. In this case I think it may be moot as I plan to have the characters start a bit more inexperienced than the standard and I think Fly will be a bit beyond them.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Hteph said:

I did understand that … I just found it as an good example of these small adjustments that may be needed. In this case I think it may be moot as I plan to have the characters start a bit more inexperienced than the standard and I think Fly will be a bit beyond them.

Well, if they're standard RQG characters, they'll 3 Rune Points in whatever cult they belong to. If one of them Orlanth, the player could very well pick Fly as a spell. Of course, they'll still need to compute how much time they'll need to reach the top of the Crags and how much weight they want carry on the way up. It's definitely one of those situations where you count up every ENC...  Maybe they'll get lucky and convince the King Condor to let one of them Fly down 🙂 It'd be a real waste Rune Points otherwise... [evil chuckle]

[icebrand]

6 hours ago, Hteph said:

Yes exactly these details, I like to have rumors of this planted in advance, perhaps in a folklore snippet if there is a Prax Character or a bawdy nomad song about a stupid Orlanthi sung around a campfire to provoke the PCs.

Just a reading through and making notes about these things and making the weave. I always prefer the info being channeled through a character (of course supported by me as I don’t demand them to memorize things, but it they just starts “I heard a story about Condor Crag and a stupid Orlanthi” and the looks expectant at me … if not making up a story on their own, with some injections from me. They where a good bunch, probably impossible to get them together again now sadly). 

Are you really pre-punishing characters for having a good rune spell pick?

What does it matter if PCs can fly? Condors fly just as well or better, AERIAL COMBAT TIME!!!

To be honest given the climbing difficulties and the average climbing% of PCs...

Plus isn't climbing an Orlanthi skill?

[svensson]

44 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Are you really pre-punishing characters for having a good rune spell pick?

What does it matter if PCs can fly? Condors fly just as well or better, AERIAL COMBAT TIME!!!

To be honest given the climbing difficulties and the average climbing% of PCs...

Plus isn't climbing an Orlanthi skill?

No one is 'pre-punishing' the PC's.

First off, the whole point of the adventure is to get several giant condor eggs off the Crags safely. It is understood that the giant condors in question will object... strenuously. I should also note that the giant condors are REALLY. GIANT. CONDORS.... Size statistics range from 29 to 34, or 'bigger than a Great Uz'. It would seem to me that fighting them in mid-air is playing their game in their environment.

Second thing I'd like to point out is that Jebba's Spire, the Condor Crag with the nests, is 400m high. The spell duration for Fly is 15 minutes. Assuming the character with the spell wants to bring their armor, shield and a weapon with them, they're gonna need at least 2 RP just for the weight to Fly up. So that's 3 Rune Points right there [and the average starting characters in RQG have 3 RP]. The two problems are a] that just gets them to the top of Spire [unless they think they can steal a minimum 3 x SIZ 2 eggs and get safely back down in the 15 minute duration of the spell...] and b] that only gets one PC up the Spire [and if the PC thinks they can get the aforementioned eggs by themselves...]

Lastly, there are mission stipulations from Duke Raus... they must not kill any of the condors, AND they must take a minimum of 3 eggs but not all the eggs.  The condors are rare creatures; there are not many left in Glorantha and Duke Raus doesn't want to destroy their ability to breed.

And Climb is indeed an Air skill [and an Orlanthi cult skill]. This provides the characters with a valuable chance to use their Runes to augment their skills in a high pressure situation, thereby earning Rune checks as well as skill checks.

So discouraging the use of the Fly spell is benefiting the PCs more than you'd think.

Edited March 28, 2022 by svensson

[icebrand]

19 minutes ago, svensson said:

So discouraging the use of the Fly spell is benefiting the PCs more than you'd think.

I dont think so, at least i wouldn't do it.

I run the scenarios as they are. As you described fly already has its limitations, sure, i could put a condor with dispel magic and straight up murder any PC that flies... I would also find that super unfair and arbitrary.

If the PC has flight and can solve the scenario with it, more power to them. Or at least that's how I gm

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by icebrand

[svensson]

6 hours ago, icebrand said:

I dont think so, at least i wouldn't do it.

I run the scenarios as they are. As you described fly already has its limitations, sure, i could put a condor with dispel magic and straight up murder any PC that flies... I would also find that super unfair and arbitrary.

If the PC has flight and can solve the scenario with it, more power to them. Or at least that's how I gm

 

IB, in my last post I'm describing the scenario as written. The single difference is that the Scarlet King [the intelligent condor] has Rune magic. He already is intelligent and has Spirit magic. I am translating the RQ2 statistics into RQG and describing the limitations of the Fly spell, but I am not trying to limit player creativity.

I never tell a player they 'can't' do something. I just describe how difficult it may or may not be and the obvious consequences if it doesn't work. After that, they can make their own decisions and may the dice be friendly to them. I've had players take very risky life-or-death plans and roll a crit success. Mazel Tov! Here's the skill checks and I'll probably throw a little something extra in the loot pot. I've had players take the safest of all possible routes and fumble. I never go out of my way to kill a character and I generally pull my punches over what's written in the scenario in an effort for the character to NOT die... within reason. Falling 300m off a cliff is gonna kill anyone.

[icebrand]

13 minutes ago, svensson said:

IB, in my last post I'm describing the scenario as written. The single difference is that the Scarlet King [the intelligent condor] has Rune magic. He already is intelligent and has Spirit magic. I am translating the RQ2 statistics into RQG and describing the limitations of the Fly spell, but I am not trying to limit player creativity.

I never tell a player they 'can't' do something. I just describe how difficult it may or may not be and the obvious consequences if it doesn't work. After that, they can make their own decisions and may the dice be friendly to them. I've had players take very risky life-or-death plans and roll a crit success. Mazel Tov! Here's the skill checks and I'll probably throw a little something extra in the loot pot. I've had players take the safest of all possible routes and fumble. I never go out of my way to kill a character and I generally pull my punches over what's written in the scenario in an effort for the character to NOT die... within reason. Falling 300m off a cliff is gonna kill anyone.

IMHO: Fly > Climbing (since you are spending resources).

Now, (ideally) the scenario requires a single climb roll as per the special mountain climbing rules (only leader rolls, one roll per day).

Using fly, to me, is a completely valid way to solve the puzzle.

Same as using dark walk to stealth. I'm not gonna come up with a reason so they can't use the spell, it negating the stealth rolls is the intended function!

[g33k]

7 hours ago, icebrand said:

I dont think so, at least i wouldn't do it.

I run the scenarios as they are. As you described fly already has its limitations, sure, i could put a condor with dispel magic and straight up murder any PC that flies... I would also find that super unfair and arbitrary.

If the PC has flight and can solve the scenario with it, more power to them. Or at least that's how I gm

Recall that the scenario as-designed presumes RQ2 PC's and RQ2 Rune- (and other) magic.

So I would expect -- when running it for RQG player-characters -- some "RQG'ified" elements of the setting & scenario.  In particular, more/better magic for the defenders would seem to be a matter of course (but I'd honestly more think of making him a Yelmic shaman, than Rune-Priest).

(edit:  emphasizing the Yelmic elements seems good, here; include the Sun County replacement for Raus; of course he wants Yelmic condors at his court!  And then (for example) all of Sandheart ties in MUCH more readily!)

Edited March 28, 2022 by g33k
Yelm-stuff ftw!

[icebrand]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Recall that the scenario as-designed presumes RQ2 PC's and RQ2 Rune- (and other) magic.

So I would expect -- when running it for RQG player-characters -- some "RQG'ified" elements of the setting & scenario.  In particular, more/better magic for the defenders would seem to be a matter of course (but I'd honestly more think of making him a Yelmic shaman, than Rune-Priest).

(edit:  emphasizing the Yelmic elements seems good, here; include the Sun County replacement for Raus; of course he wants Yelmic condors at his court!  And then (for example) all of Sandheart ties in MUCH more readily!)

Do keep in mind that borderlands is for 4-8 adventurers with 60% to 80% weapon skills.

Also by revenge of muriah the book tells you to bring runelords; the campaign isn't balanced for rq2 starting characters, it would be a meat grinder!!!

My PCs are rq2 generated with background, 2d6+6 all stats (NPCs are still 3d6), 150 skill points, 5 battle magic and 3 pow in rune magic (with pool as per rqg rules).

The scenarios are plenty challenging to near-runelords, you don't need to buff them!

I actually defeated my players with the ducks and the duke had to ranson them + replace their gear... Not a happy moment (for them, it was awesome for me haha)

[svensson]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

Do keep in mind that borderlands is for 4-8 adventurers with 60% to 80% weapon skills.

Also by revenge of muriah the book tells you to bring runelords; the campaign isn't balanced for rq2 starting characters, it would be a meat grinder!!!

My PCs are rq2 generated with background, 2d6+6 all stats (NPCs are still 3d6), 150 skill points, 5 battle magic and 3 pow in rune magic (with pool as per rqg rules).

The scenarios are plenty challenging to near-runelords, you don't need to buff them!

I actually defeated my players with the ducks and the duke had to ranson them + replace their gear... Not a happy moment (for them, it was awesome for me haha)

"Dude... you got beat by a duck..."

Yeah, that's gonna go over well at your next Storm Bull shindig...

[Questbird]

On 3/9/2022 at 5:28 PM, Graeme P said:

If you are happy to go back to the 1610s then River of Cradles has a great advanture which is for beginning characters and introduces the PCs to Raus Fort, so it and then Borderlands would work well.  In my view a campaign with Sandheart, Sun County and Shadows would be large enough on its own to not need to be intertwined with these.  Those three also work better with characters from predominantly sun-worshipping and associated cults.

If your group want to keep running their existing characters and so you are in the 1620s then it makes sense to have a new  Argrath-friendly replacement to Raus.  I imagine that the early adventures would require more work than the later ones, but who is to say that the new person in charge desn't have a headstrong daughter...?  As a start, being an ally of Argrath would change the interaction with the nomads.

Wherever the most fun is to be had is the direction to head towards.

 

The 'Troubled Waters' campaign in River of Cradles was a great introduction to the whole Zola Fel region (though I didn't run it in Glorantha). My players did that whole campaign and one adventure from 'Shadows on the Borderlands' (the Dyksund Caverns). They started the 1st adventure in Borderlands after that, but they didn't care for Duke Raus and his Lunar connection, so they left his service at Horn Gate.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

18 hours ago, svensson said:

And Climb is indeed an Air skill

Climb is an Agility skill, hence Water.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

17 hours ago, icebrand said:

Using fly, to me, is a completely valid way to solve the puzzle.

Same as using dark walk to stealth. I'm not gonna come up with a reason so they can't use the spell,

I think there are two things :

- allowing or not to use a spell during a scenario. For me, of course they can !

- challenging players. If with two spells, a pc is able, alone, to close a scenario, that means, for me, that I, as a gm, have managed the table wrongly

 

My conception of GM is neither to be the opponent of the players nor to let them succeed in the blink of an eye. It is to propose enough challenges and above all, to contribute (as anyone else around the table) to create a good story, epic, with victories and loses, with discovered secrets, and sometimes little betrayals, passions and evolution  of the characters.

That means, for me, a GM has to modify the scenario when the pc are too powerful (or just when they find quickly an easy solution) or too weak
 

Maybe there are some winds and the fly spell is not enough to reach the summit. It helps but it is not enough.

or some spirits are able to dismiss the spells (too easy, find something else !)

Or maybe, after too many fails, someone is able to see a path nobody noticed before, or just think that could be good to leave and come back with ropes and other equipment... oups ..... (of course GM defines the appropriate bonus)

 

Maybe it is not a dragon defending the treasure, but just a dragonewt. Maybe the plunder is not a full set of iron plate but just a bronze one. -yes balance is not only about opposition but reward too -

Maybe some friendly runelord would help the pcs  facing a too complex situation (or maybe the situation is less difficult than described in the book)

Or maybe the main opponent is in fact twins

 

I see a published scenario as a guidance, something generic, of course without the knowledge of my table, its background, its experience. I have to adapt it so I understand @svensson approach.

[icebrand]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think there are two things :

- allowing or not to use a spell during a scenario. For me, of course they can !

- challenging players. If with two spells, a pc is able, alone, to close a scenario, that means, for me, that I, as a gm, have managed the table wrongly

 

My conception of GM is neither to be the opponent of the players nor to let them succeed in the blink of an eye. It is to propose enough challenges and above all, to contribute (as anyone else around the table) to create a good story, epic, with victories and loses, with discovered secrets, and sometimes little betrayals, passions and evolution  of the characters.

That means, for me, a GM has to modify the scenario when the pc are too powerful (or just when they find quickly an easy solution) or too weak
 

Maybe there are some winds and the fly spell is not enough to reach the summit. It helps but it is not enough.

or some spirits are able to dismiss the spells (too easy, find something else !)

Or maybe, after too many fails, someone is able to see a path nobody noticed before, or just think that could be good to leave and come back with ropes and other equipment... oups ..... (of course GM defines the appropriate bonus)

 

Maybe it is not a dragon defending the treasure, but just a dragonewt. Maybe the plunder is not a full set of iron plate but just a bronze one. -yes balance is not only about opposition but reward too -

Maybe some friendly runelord would help the pcs  facing a too complex situation (or maybe the situation is less difficult than described in the book)

Or maybe the main opponent is in fact twins

 

I see a published scenario as a guidance, something generic, of course without the knowledge of my table, its background, its experience. I have to adapt it so I understand @svensson approach.

On Challenging players: 

I run the game as is (changed some NPC cosmetics, they exiled orlanthi from dragon pass instead of lunars for example).

i have a 4 people party (a chalana, a humakti, a yelornan and a lhankor mhy). They are close to being runelords (except the chalana that already is and pushing for priesthood).

I didn't need to change a single thing on enemies tbh! Most important NPC are pretty strong with around 90%, and have way way way way more battle & rune magic that they should.

I like to run a "static" world; the random stuff you fight is straight out the book (making random encounters the variable) and for scenarios i usually give them an NPC to help if needed (which is super easy to do im just giving them extra utility at the cost of having to babysit an NPC that's not as good as them at fighting). 

For example, in muriahs revenge they got a lanbril thief that helps scouting ahead (but he has only 8 pow so they can chose to send him safely one time with silence and invisibility.

My concept as GM is to let my players feel powerful and have fun, but I'm a murder gm once they step into a "dungeon". Random encounters are easier since i have average monsters (vs the BS NPCs with unrealistic stats, every single Broo seems to have rolled better than my PCs despite the players rolling 2d6+6 with a few bonuses.

You want to fly ahead? Be my guest, now the condors will pick on the single isolated target! 

I wouldn't add spirits that dispel flight. If it's too easy because you are an Orlanthi priest... Good for you I guess? 

Maybe it is a dragon. Heck, if i want to help you out (which i do because I'm not a total psycho gm) then I will tell you there's a dragon instead of greeting you with a venom spray!

What, you guys not strong enough to fight it? Then you shouldn't be there... Or you can try and die, that should teach you!

I try to use the world as it is, and rely on random encounters to make stuff more exiting. I also stole some encounter tables from a supers game for stuff that could happen in town, you know, just regular problems regular people face.

This way the dice + my improv dictate what happens, not even the GM has the full story, and i feel I'm exploring glorantha instead of being it's god.

I see a published scenario as a test for the PCs, and i play to WIN. Every roll is out in the open, and what happens happens!

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by icebrand

[Darius West]

On 3/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, Zit said:

 so why not replace Raus with an official from the Sun County ?

I agree.  And if not an official from Sun County, then definitely an Argrath adherent.  Really the GM just has to replace a few NPCs to make it work.  Personally, I tend to upgrade the settlement a bit as well as Raus obviously put some effort into building up Ronegarth as his new seat.