Has anyone house-ruled improving attributes?

[JDS]

I'm looking at a long-term CoC campaign, and I was thinking that a more developed PC growth option would be a good thing. The rules cover skills, but what about improving attributes?

I had some vague idea of awarding points for Role-play, ideas, etc, and having X number of these 'reward points' translate into a 1 point increase to an attribute (not Size, Luck, or Magic).

[JLBrown7289]

I haven't done this but I like the idea...for some attributes. Strength is the most obvious, the truth is, it is trivially easy to build strength and strength is one of those things that then feeds into better performance at a lot of activities. It is less easy or straightforward with intelligence or dexterity but it is possible, it's just much harder. 

[Atgxtg]

RuneQuest, CoC's parent system had rules for improving attributes. Since the games are vary similar the rules would port over fairly easily.Basically attributes could be trained up similar to how skills could be trained up (which in RQ they can). The exact rules varied depending on which edition of RQ you used, but roughly it would cost 2-3 times as much as skill improvement. There tended to be limits based upon your original attributes and/or species maximums, and in RQ3 by how much the trainer knew (that is if he knew how to train STR up 3 points, then that is as far as you could be trained by that teacher). Also in RQ3, a character could "practice" to improve attributes (and skills) without a teacher. This had a similar end effect, but was less likely to succeed.

I could dig up the actual rules from RQ2 or RQ3 if you are interested.

 

[JDS]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

RuneQuest, CoC's parent system had rules for improving attributes. Since the games are vary similar the rules would port over fairly easily.Basically attributes could be trained up similar to how skills could be trained up (which in RQ they can). The exact rules varied depending on which edition of RQ you used, but roughly it would cost 2-3 times as much as skill improvement. There tended to be limits based upon your original attributes and/or species maximums, and in RQ3 by how much the trainer knew (that is if he knew how to train STR up 3 points, then that is as far as you could be trained by that teacher). Also in RQ3, a character could "practice" to improve attributes (and skills) without a teacher. This had a similar end effect, but was less likely to succeed.

I could dig up the actual rules from RQ2 or RQ3 if you are interested.

 

I would like to see them, if it is not too much trouble.

[mvincent]

17 hours ago, JDS said:

I'm looking at a long-term CoC campaign, and I was thinking that a more developed PC growth option would be a good thing. The rules cover skills, but what about improving attributes?

BRP had skill training rules which averaged to about 1 point per month. Also, CoC's therapy rules average to about 1 point of SAN per month. So I just told my players that they could increase one thing (attribute, skill or sanity) by 5 points per the 1/2 year of down-time that we regularly had between scenarios. The players rarely chose to improve an attribute (since they weren't used as much as skills). I think even a Size attribute increase could be justified via role-play (i.e. gaining weight).

Edited March 11, 2022 by mvincent

[Atgxtg]

On 3/10/2022 at 5:27 PM, JDS said:

I would like to see them, if it is not too much trouble.

Not much trouble at all.

 

RuneQuest 2 (p.12)

PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTIC TRAINING
Once a character has reached full growth (usually around age 16
in this world), the only way to enhance physical characteristics
is hard training.
STR       Strength may be increased at the cost of 1000 L per
one point of STR. Remember, if his STR is the highest
amongst STR, SIZ, and CON, it cannot be increased at
all, except temporarily. STR conditioning is traditionally
taught by the fighting bands and guilds.
CON      The sages and alchemists have devised a regimen of diet
and exercise which will increase a character’s CON up to
the level of SIZ or STR. Again, if the CON characteristic
is the highest of the three, it cannot be enhanced. The cost
is 2000 L per point.
DEX      This sort of training is usually done by Thieves and
Players Guilds. Cost of training is usually the same as
STR training, but the thieves will often exact a fee of
service instead or as well as monetary payment. Players
(as in minstrels, not die rollers) will generally simply
exact payment, but are a wandering breed and can only be
persuaded to settle down if the pot is sweetened for them.
Just what kind of service the thieves may exact or what
extra the players may wish is discussed in Chapter VI,
Other Skills.

TRAINING COSTS AND TIME
Basic training costs in Glorantha are 400 L a week for eight
hours a day. This can be subdivided into four two-hour sessions
at 100 L a week each.

 

RuneQuest 3 (Player Book, page 39)

Characteristic Increase
Increase through training, or research, for STR and
CON is limited by the highest value of the
adventurer's original STR, CON, or SIZ. If the
highest value of the three is a SIZ of 14, for instance,
then neither STR nor CON can be increased past that
number through training. Example: Cormac has a
SIZ of12, a CON of 9 and a STR of 17. Since his STR
is his highest characteristic of the three, his CON can-
not be raised past that number. His SIZ, of course,
cannot be raised or lowered at all. Even if Cormac's
Strength is later raised through magic to 18, he will be
unable to train his Constitution to more than 17.
     Any training or research increase for DEX or APP is
limited to half again the adventurer's original charac
teristic, rounded up. Example: Corrnac has a DEX of 8
and an APP of 13. His maximum DEX increase through
research or training is 12, and his maximum APP in-
crease through training or research is 20.

Procedure for Increase Through Training
When the gamemaster will allow it, an adventurer
may attempt to train up his characteristics at a rate of a
number of hours based on the value of his score for the
current characteristic-—just as advancement in a skill
by training depends on the current skill percentage.
For characteristics, establish the number of hours by
multiplying the current value for the characteristic
X 2.5. At the end of a training period, roll 1D3-1 and add
the result to the current value of that characteristic.

Who Does the Training
Only adventurers who have already increased per-
sonal characteristics through training may train other
adventurers to increase their characteristics. Thus, ini-
tially, an adventurer must go to non-adventurers to
receive characteristic increase training. An adventurer
may help train up another’s characteristic only to the
amount by which his own was increased.

Procedure for Increase by Research
The number of hours required for research is derived in
the same way as for training. To increase a character-
istic by research, multiply 5 times the current value of
the characteristic to find a percentile ability in the
characteristic. Roll percentile dice. If the result is
higher than the characteristic times 5 add 1D3-1 to the
characteristic value. It the result is lower than the cur-
rent value of the skill make no change to the character-
istic. A character who has increased a characteristic in
this manner becomes qualified to train others.

Cormac's Saga_________________________________

Cormac wishes to train up the a S g DEX of a fellow adventurer.
Churchak the Scythian. Churchak's DEX is 12. After much
effort, Cormac's DEX has been raised to 11, increased three
points over his original DEX value of8, Because his DEX has
been increased through training, Cormac can train Chur-
chalc. but he can only train up Churchalcs DEX by three
points, the amount by which Cormac's DEX has been trained.

____________________________________________________________

 

 

[Darius West]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:49 PM, JDS said:

I'm looking at a long-term CoC campaign, and I was thinking that a more developed PC growth option would be a good thing. The rules cover skills, but what about improving attributes?

I had some vague idea of awarding points for Role-play, ideas, etc, and having X number of these 'reward points' translate into a 1 point increase to an attribute (not Size, Luck, or Magic).

In truth, one Keeper to another, Call of C'thulhu Attributes aren't very important. 

The most important one is POW, and if people resist spells or successfully cast spells on others, then their POW has a good chance to improve naturally.  POW also governs those luck rolls and how many luck points a character has to blow. 

The next most important one is DEX, because that governs initiative.  Going first matters.

Now INT and EDU are really important in Character creation, but they drop off a lot.  KNOW rolls and IDEA rolls are sometimes never used by Keepers at all.  These are never dump stats, but once it comes time to play they may as well be.  I have seen characters with 18 INT behave like right idiots 🙂

Now STR & SIZ give you a damage bonus if you are half-lucky, and if you are super lucky you will hit the +1d6, but don't hold your breath.  CON is also used for surviving poisons and some spell or special attack effects.]

A high APP is a sort-of social superpower, but again, don't hold your breath.

The point I am getting at is that ultimately, CoC isn't a game where these base attributes offer more than a slight situational advantage.  It isn't as if the stats boost your skills like in RuneQuest or D&D.  In a funny sort of way, the mixed bag of often dubious stats don't matter a great deal and may even help to define your character in a positive way for roleplay despite being low.  Players may not think much of their balding, pigeon-toed overweight vacuum cleaner salesman with halitosis, but they often become very attached to them as they confront adversity bravely, and cheer when this nobody manages to somehow hold their own and even occasionally get a victory.  There isn't a big difference between a +1d4 and a +1d6 damage bonus.

If you want to reward players, they soon discover that in 1920s USA, money talks, and people will overlook many personal failings if you are rich.  I'd sooner have a high Credit Rating than any single Attribute you care to name.

[JDS]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

In truth, one Keeper to another, Call of C'thulhu Attributes aren't very important. 

The most important one is POW, and if people resist spells or successfully cast spells on others, then their POW has a good chance to improve naturally.  POW also governs those luck rolls and how many luck points a character has to blow. 

The next most important one is DEX, because that governs initiative.  Going first matters.

Now INT and EDU are really important in Character creation, but they drop off a lot.  KNOW rolls and IDEA rolls are sometimes never used by Keepers at all.  These are never dump stats, but once it comes time to play they may as well be.  I have seen characters with 18 INT behave like right idiots 🙂

Now STR & SIZ give you a damage bonus if you are half-lucky, and if you are super lucky you will hit the +1d6, but don't hold your breath.  CON is also used for surviving poisons and some spell or special attack effects.]

A high APP is a sort-of social superpower, but again, don't hold your breath.

The point I am getting at is that ultimately, CoC isn't a game where these base attributes offer more than a slight situational advantage.  It isn't as if the stats boost your skills like in RuneQuest or D&D.  In a funny sort of way, the mixed bag of often dubious stats don't matter a great deal and may even help to define your character in a positive way for roleplay despite being low.  Players may not think much of their balding, pigeon-toed overweight vacuum cleaner salesman with halitosis, but they often become very attached to them as they confront adversity bravely, and cheer when this nobody manages to somehow hold their own and even occasionally get a victory.  There isn't a big difference between a +1d4 and a +1d6 damage bonus.

If you want to reward players, they soon discover that in 1920s USA, money talks, and people will overlook many personal failings if you are rich.  I'd sooner have a high Credit Rating than any single Attribute you care to name.

I'm doing for for a sense of accomplishment for the players. Most players want to see their PCs improve, even if it is in small increments. I posted my house rule in this sub-forum, but basically in addition to attribute points, it adds hit points and luck points. Small numbers, but I think it will do the job.

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, JDS said:

I'm doing for for a sense of accomplishment for the players. Most players want to see their PCs improve, even if it is in small increments. I posted my house rule in this sub-forum, but basically in addition to attribute points, it adds hit points and luck points. Small numbers, but I think it will do the job.

Please, I am not suggesting that you are doing anything wrong by allowing player characters to increase their attributes.  Not at all.  What I am saying is that the improvements are so small that they seldom matter.  When Shub Niggurath stomps on you, it won't matter whether you have 10HP or 11 or 20, the outcome is likely to be identical.  As a person who both Keeps and plays CoC, my advise to your players is if you have to choose between hours of rigorous physical exercise and a pimp's fan of Ben Franklins, shake hands with Ben every time.  This is not a criticism of what you are doing, just advice that you can choose to take or ignore as you choose 🙂

Edited March 16, 2022 by Darius West

[JDS]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Please, I am not suggesting that you are doing anything wrong by allowing player characters to increase their attributes.  Not at all.  What I am saying is that the improvements are so small that they seldom matter.  When Shub Niggurath stomps on you, it won't matter whether you have 10HP or 11 or 20, the outcome is likely to be identical.  As a person who both Keeps and plays CoC, my advise to your players is if you have to choose between hours of rigorous physical exercise and a pimp's fan of Ben Franklins, shake hands with Ben every time.  This is not a criticism of what you are doing, just advice that you can choose to take or ignore as you choose 🙂

I'm not really using the credit rating system; players will be tracking income as is usual for most games. 

I run long campaigns (40+) sessions, so the PCs will be dealing with a lot more cultists than Mythos entities.

[andyl]

1 hour ago, JDS said:

I'm not really using the credit rating system; players will be tracking income as is usual for most games. 

I run long campaigns (40+) sessions, so the PCs will be dealing with a lot more cultists than Mythos entities.

Yes but I still think skills, sanity, luck, money, and contacts are far more important that attributes.

Earlier you said "I'm doing for for a sense of accomplishment for the players. Most players want to see their PCs improve, even if it is in small increments".  In that case just have regular Investigator Development Phases.  Surely seeing your skills go up gives that sense of accomplishment.  Surely interim SAN awards (where appropriate and tied to the story) do that even more.

[Atgxtg]

On 3/15/2022 at 9:48 AM, Darius West said:

In truth, one Keeper to another, Call of C'thulhu Attributes aren't very important. 

 

LOL! There is a lot of truth to that. A point or two of CON probably won't matter much when a shoggoth engulfs an investigator. 

[JDS]

 

32 minutes ago, andyl said:

Yes but I still think skills, sanity, luck, money, and contacts are far more important that attributes.

Earlier you said "I'm doing for for a sense of accomplishment for the players. Most players want to see their PCs improve, even if it is in small increments".  In that case just have regular Investigator Development Phases.  Surely seeing your skills go up gives that sense of accomplishment.  Surely interim SAN awards (where appropriate and tied to the story) do that even more.

I'm pleased with my house rule, and I'll keep it.

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, JDS said:

I'm not really using the credit rating system; players will be tracking income as is usual for most games. 

I run long campaigns (40+) sessions, so the PCs will be dealing with a lot more cultists than Mythos entities.

Firstly, I applaud the long campaign approach.  I do that too, and it works surprisingly well for Call of C'thulhu, and makes the game far more interesting than the sudden -death-mass-character-turnover-regular-TPK approach imo.  I also intersperse my game with plenty of non-C'thulhu-non-cult activities to insure that the players and characters feel that they are in and part of a world with depth far beyond their cult chasing, and a world that is worth saving too.

As to the credit rating system, there are a couple of approaches.  What I am trying to get at is there are a few ways of handling credit rating and money.  In the early addition Credit Rating was primarily used for obtaining loans (which were seldom paid back given the high rate of character mortality).  These days it has become more a shorthand for one's social standing and income bracket in 7th ed.  Some GMs like to completely abstract the system, while others want to count every dime.  Where it gets tricky is whether you want players to actually be able to generate income via the labor of others.  Some GMs (bad ones imo) won't let players invest their hard won gains into enterprises that will allow them to gather resources that will be useful in mythos busting, while running other income generation on the side.  Security firms are a classic for this, and are even more useful when tied to law firms and private investigators.  Smart players will understand that when human pull together they are a force the mythos fears.  Smarter players will insure that they control the information flow in their organization and gradually get their employees onside and weed out the mythos infiltrators.  Many Keepers don't know how to handle players who use this sort of strategy, or deliberately keep their players poor so they can't even begin to meaningfully try.

[JDS]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Firstly, I applaud the long campaign approach.  I do that too, and it works surprisingly well for Call of C'thulhu, and makes the game far more interesting than the sudden -death-mass-character-turnover-regular-TPK approach imo.  I also intersperse my game with plenty of non-C'thulhu-non-cult activities to insure that the players and characters feel that they are in and part of a world with depth far beyond their cult chasing, and a world that is worth saving too.

As to the credit rating system, there are a couple of approaches.  What I am trying to get at is there are a few ways of handling credit rating and money.  In the early addition Credit Rating was primarily used for obtaining loans (which were seldom paid back given the high rate of character mortality).  These days it has become more a shorthand for one's social standing and income bracket in 7th ed.  Some GMs like to completely abstract the system, while others want to count every dime.  Where it gets tricky is whether you want players to actually be able to generate income via the labor of others.  Some GMs (bad ones imo) won't let players invest their hard won gains into enterprises that will allow them to gather resources that will be useful in mythos busting, while running other income generation on the side.  Security firms are a classic for this, and are even more useful when tied to law firms and private investigators.  Smart players will understand that when human pull together they are a force the mythos fears.  Smarter players will insure that they control the information flow in their organization and gradually get their employees onside and weed out the mythos infiltrators.  Many Keepers don't know how to handle players who use this sort of strategy, or deliberately keep their players poor so they can't even begin to meaningfully try.

The key to a long campaign IMO, is creating Mythos cults with depth of layers. And, as you noted, non-mythos sidebars. Plus I like to throw in the odd 'X-file' case, where it is supernatural/occult, but not tied to anything bigger.

I view the credit rating as a social indicator. The next campaign I'll run will be in 1925, with the PCs being recruited (via a cut-out attorney) by Andrew Mellon. They will have (modest) salaries and expense accounts, but no official standing; they will probably use insurance adjustment as a cover if need be. Mellon's interest in all things financial should provide occult, criminal, and some political investigations.  

[Darius West]

23 hours ago, JDS said:

The key to a long campaign IMO, is creating Mythos cults with depth of layers. And, as you noted, non-mythos sidebars. Plus I like to throw in the odd 'X-file' case, where it is supernatural/occult, but not tied to anything bigger.

I view the credit rating as a social indicator. The next campaign I'll run will be in 1925, with the PCs being recruited (via a cut-out attorney) by Andrew Mellon. They will have (modest) salaries and expense accounts, but no official standing; they will probably use insurance adjustment as a cover if need be. Mellon's interest in all things financial should provide occult, criminal, and some political investigations.  

You sound like a good Keeper to me. If you ever want to PM me on matters C'thulhu, feel free to, and we can conspire up some deviltry to inflict on your poor players 😇.

So back to related matters, I believe that joining a gym or a boxing club cost about $1-$3 per month, not including locker rental or personal gear in 1927.  Some luxury apartments would contain gyms and swimming pools that were freely available to residents.  Of course I would make players roll POWx3 AND CONx3 to get benefits, as without someone leaning over your shoulder or a regular group to train with, many people lacks the discipline to get the benefits.  Increase the multipliers if they have "oversight" keeping them honest.  Anyone fancy playing dodge-ball with this medicine ball I found?😄

[klecser]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:41 AM, Darius West said:

Firstly, I applaud the long campaign approach.  I do that too, and it works surprisingly well for Call of C'thulhu, and makes the game far more interesting than the sudden -death-mass-character-turnover-regular-TPK approach imo.  I also intersperse my game with plenty of non-C'thulhu-non-cult activities to insure that the players and characters feel that they are in and part of a world with depth far beyond their cult chasing, and a world that is worth saving too.

Same. We had our 54th session last weekend. We've retired one character the entire campaign. I don't begrudge anyone their TPK-approach. Yet, the tradeoff for that is that you have zero character development, and character development is the single most important aspect of story-telling for many of us. You can have a sense of dread without mortal threat. The focus becomes existential psychic threat.

Quasi-off-topic: I am in the process of releasing a MR product about weird tech guidance/philosophy in CoC campaigns. The game needs more campaign advice that goes beyond "have plenty of extra characters."

On topic: I salute the topic creator for paving their own way and embracing Your Cthulhu Will Vary. I have MANY alterations I've made to my game to suit campaign play and my particular group of players. If there is interest in a dedicated thread for discussing modifications to rules made for campaigning, I'd be happy to start one!

 

[Ian Absentia]

On 3/16/2022 at 7:14 AM, JDS said:

...the PCs will be dealing with a lot more cultists than Mythos entities.

Which, let's face it, is where the real horror lies.  Not what the alien monster looks like, but the effect they have on the people around them.  And the sinking anticipation that, no matter how deep you've dug, you've never quite gotten to the root of the problem.

!i!

[JDS]

3 hours ago, klecser said:

If there is interest in a dedicated thread for discussing modifications to rules made for campaigning, I'd be happy to start one!

 

Count me in!