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Movement in combat


JDS

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Really impressed with the 7th Ed system so far, but one thing isn't clear to me: movement within combat.

As I'm reading the rules, you can move (usually around 25' based on age & Size), and also make an attack (multiple attacks, if using a suitable firearm and taking the appropriate penalties. Or instead of an attack, take a non-attack action.

Is this correct? 

If you forgo an attack, can you move more?

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Yes and no, thats not quite right, its not like D&D where you have a specificly designed fragment of time of 6 seconds. If you look on page 102, it talks about time being a deliberatly elastic unit of time which stretches or contracts to allow everyone to do their (at least one) action. If you read the section that follows Dex and the order of attack, it talks about the action in a combat round and gives examples of what may happen. If you're forgoing an attack, you (as a keeper) could say the investigator pushes themselves a bit to run a bit harder, but then maybe make them do a dex roll to push themselves or avoid the combat situation.

Theres a really good set of youtube videos which talk through the 7e system and how it works. I'd recommend watching the fight ones, they're numbers 3 and 4 on this playlist.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJmFJXf3BXjx-HGqco2c1BXUQnRlYmkZQ

 

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oh and with regards to the move and/or attack, again its down to what the investigator is doing. You can close in on someone and attack them in melee, step behind cover, lean round and fire off a shot or two, dive behind cover (and doing a full dodge which means anyone firing at them has a penalty die pg 113), any number of things.

CoC is far more abstract than other systems like Alien which has fast and slow action or D&D which has bonus actions. Ask your players what they're doing, work out if it is possible without it being totally stupid, then tell them what they need to roll or the outcome of their action.

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59 minutes ago, CastingsofCthulhu said:

oh and with regards to the move and/or attack, again its down to what the investigator is doing. You can close in on someone and attack them in melee, step behind cover, lean round and fire off a shot or two, dive behind cover (and doing a full dodge which means anyone firing at them has a penalty die pg 113), any number of things.

CoC is far more abstract than other systems like Alien which has fast and slow action or D&D which has bonus actions. Ask your players what they're doing, work out if it is possible without it being totally stupid, then tell them what they need to roll or the outcome of their action.

That's not going to work for me. We're going to be using this on Roll20, and the vagueness of those rules are not going to mesh with a map. Given the lethal nature of combat, Players are going to want to do more than take cover and shoot it out; they're going to want to maneuver.

But it should be pretty easy to house-rule it. 

Thanks for the input and the link; now I know I didn't read the rules incorrectly.

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Theres nothing wrong with using the rules on role20, I've used, and played in games with maps. It's just down to how you interpret the players actions. You're just not bound by strict limits of time so theres plent of chances for players to move around while also attacking or interacting with their surroundings.

I recommend watching the melee video if you haven't already. At the 4 minute mark it talks about how its not a tactical combat system and encourages interaction with the environment. It then details how a character searches a kitchen, finds a knife, then attacks. How long would that take in real life? 10-30 seconds maybe? but the system allows players to be more creative.

The firearms video also talks through the (optional) move and shoot rules.

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33 minutes ago, CastingsofCthulhu said:

Theres nothing wrong with using the rules on role20, I've used, and played in games with maps. It's just down to how you interpret the players actions. You're just not bound by strict limits of time so theres plent of chances for players to move around while also attacking or interacting with their surroundings.

I recommend watching the melee video if you haven't already. At the 4 minute mark it talks about how its not a tactical combat system and encourages interaction with the environment. It then details how a character searches a kitchen, finds a knife, then attacks. How long would that take in real life? 10-30 seconds maybe? but the system allows players to be more creative.

The firearms video also talks through the (optional) move and shoot rules.

I don't see melee coming into play in a 1920s setting, or even in an 1880s one. I can't imagine a player deciding that running up to a killer and punching them is superior to shooting them multiple times from a distance. Or at least, I don't see any point in keeping a player who thinks like that.

But it's not a problem. A six-second combat round, and a short clarification of what is possible in terms of movement and action will suffice. They didn't develop excellent firearms rules and a really quality weapons list (plus the excellent weapon supplements) if a tactical game wasn't considered a valid option.

I didn't pay a hundred bucks to Roll20 for dynamic lighting so players could free-style encounters. 😉

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On page 33:
"An investigator can move a number of yards (or meters) up to five times their MOV value in one round."
MOV is usually between 7-9, allowing for quite a lot more than 25 feet.

But, also, about combat, on page 127:
With regards to melee combat: "A character can move a number of yards equal to their MOV rate and attack normally.", that is, if they don't use their whole round to move.
And on using firearms: " A character can move up to a number of yards equal to their MOV rate and make their firearms attack (or attacks) normally on their usual DEX rank."

And next point: "If the attacker moves their MOV rate multiplied by 5 in yards, they must fire while running and so lack sufficient time to take a steady firing position, taking
a penalty die to their attack roll(s). The shots will normally be taken on their usual turn in the DEX order, but may be delayed if significant distance must be covered to reach a firing position (at the Keeper’s discretion)."

 

20 minutes ago, JDS said:

I don't see melee coming into play in a 1920s setting, or even in an 1880s one. I can't imagine a player deciding that running up to a killer and punching them is superior to shooting them multiple times from a distance. Or at least, I don't see any point in keeping a player who thinks like that.

Sounds pretty limited. Sometimes you want to ask someone a question. Sometimes you are not fighting a killer. Sometimes you need to punch out your fellow investigator, who has lost a lot of sanity.

And, I really don't see how any of the previously mentioned rules contradict being a bit tactial.

And to be fair, in the Player's Handbook for 5e, it says on page 189:
"A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world.", so it is not set in stone there either.

 

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You may be best picking up the additional pulp rules and playing using those as well, the core CoC system isn't very combat heavy. Characters can die in gun fights instantly in the vanilla rules, and it sounds like you're playing it more in the pulp vein.

I've been playing it since 2nd ed in the 80s and melee combat is often more common that gufights. Also, characters are never really designed for fighting. One game I was in a few months ago, I attacked a werewolf with a cricket bat. Did quite a bit of damage to it as well.

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8 hours ago, greger said:

On page 33:
"An investigator can move a number of yards (or meters) up to five times their MOV value in one round."
MOV is usually between 7-9, allowing for quite a lot more than 25 feet.

But, also, about combat, on page 127:
With regards to melee combat: "A character can move a number of yards equal to their MOV rate and attack normally.", that is, if they don't use their whole round to move.
And on using firearms: " A character can move up to a number of yards equal to their MOV rate and make their firearms attack (or attacks) normally on their usual DEX rank."

And next point: "If the attacker moves their MOV rate multiplied by 5 in yards, they must fire while running and so lack sufficient time to take a steady firing position, taking
a penalty die to their attack roll(s). The shots will normally be taken on their usual turn in the DEX order, but may be delayed if significant distance must be covered to reach a firing position (at the Keeper’s discretion)."

 

Sounds pretty limited. Sometimes you want to ask someone a question. Sometimes you are not fighting a killer. Sometimes you need to punch out your fellow investigator, who has lost a lot of sanity.

And, I really don't see how any of the previously mentioned rules contradict being a bit tactial.

And to be fair, in the Player's Handbook for 5e, it says on page 189:
"A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world.", so it is not set in stone there either.

 

I don't like 5e. I quit using D&D in the 80s, and only returned to 5e for a couple campaigns.

Thanks for the rule references! I love the system, but the organization of the book is a bit scattered in places.

I don't see questions arising in a firefight. Good point about a fellow PC losing it, though. But still, that's easily accommodated in a more defined combat round. I'm certainly not going to allow someone to run over a hundred feet in a single combat round.

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8 hours ago, CastingsofCthulhu said:

You may be best picking up the additional pulp rules and playing using those as well, the core CoC system isn't very combat heavy. Characters can die in gun fights instantly in the vanilla rules, and it sounds like you're playing it more in the pulp vein.

I've been playing it since 2nd ed in the 80s and melee combat is often more common that gufights. Also, characters are never really designed for fighting. One game I was in a few months ago, I attacked a werewolf with a cricket bat. Did quite a bit of damage to it as well.

Nah, I do not like the pulp genre. I prefer a more serious, grim tone in any case, particularly when using the CoC setting.

I've used a lot of CoC scenarios, starting in the 80s. I'm new to the system, not the setting. If a PC can survive a fight with a werewolf while armed only with a wood club, why would having a BAR make him more vulnerable?

As to the nature and frequency of combat, that's in the GM's hands. It won't be a problem. I normally run high-risk systems.

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9 hours ago, JDS said:

I don't see questions arising in a firefight. Good point about a fellow PC losing it, though. But still, that's easily accommodated in a more defined combat round. I'm certainly not going to allow someone to run over a hundred feet in a single combat round.

The point about questions is that you very often want (well not want but have to) talk to the cultists, to ask them questions, get information from them.  A shoot first from 25 yards approach isn't good for that.

Also cultists (and sometimes monsters) will ambush you when you have not got your guns out, or even when you don't have your guns on you.  So sometimes you cannot avoid melee.

Finally the people of a town (and the police) are probably going to be pretty annoyed but these out-of-towners walking around armed to the teeth gunning down people left, right, and centre. 

I've had pretty varied combats including one which involved one person sneaking into a barn to stampede a load of horses out of it and then in later rounds shoot the bad guys in the confusion, one person in melee, one person running to the car (to try and use it as a weapon - he failed his drive roll on the next round), and one person rolling a hard success to empty out a heavy water-trough, turn it over on top of himself and hide under it before the bad guys got to him.  Combats aren't always straightforward and that is with the things that can be easily hurt.

On the run 100 feet in a combat round. That certainly seems easily doable for athletes and characters that keep themselves in shape. I certainly wouldn't let them take another action that round. Maybe the old professor, or the flapper in heels or maybe some other character concepts, is not going to be able to sprint like that - but that is more a narrative thing not something that should be covered by a more concrete combat system.

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56 minutes ago, andyl said:

The point about questions is that you very often want (well not want but have to) talk to the cultists, to ask them questions, get information from them.  A shoot first from 25 yards approach isn't good for that.

Also cultists (and sometimes monsters) will ambush you when you have not got your guns out, or even when you don't have your guns on you.  So sometimes you cannot avoid melee.

Finally the people of a town (and the police) are probably going to be pretty annoyed but these out-of-towners walking around armed to the teeth gunning down people left, right, and centre. 

I've had pretty varied combats including one which involved one person sneaking into a barn to stampede a load of horses out of it and then in later rounds shoot the bad guys in the confusion, one person in melee, one person running to the car (to try and use it as a weapon - he failed his drive roll on the next round), and one person rolling a hard success to empty out a heavy water-trough, turn it over on top of himself and hide under it before the bad guys got to him.  Combats aren't always straightforward and that is with the things that can be easily hurt.

On the run 100 feet in a combat round. That certainly seems easily doable for athletes and characters that keep themselves in shape. I certainly wouldn't let them take another action that round. Maybe the old professor, or the flapper in heels or maybe some other character concepts, is not going to be able to sprint like that - but that is more a narrative thing not something that should be covered by a more concrete combat system.

So you talk before the fight starts. But generally, cultists don't volunteer information to outsiders, at least in my setting. They tend to be less than chatty to outsiders.

Drawing a weapon does not take long. But yes, ambushes occur. Don't have firearms with us? That hasn't happened yet.

You're not going to walk around town lugging a BAR, sure. But a pistol under your coat was perfectly legal pretty much everywhere in the 1920s, and in the USA today. Sure, shoot-outs in town are not wise, but cultists tend to set up away from public view. I haven't yet had CoC cultists conducting ceremonies at high noon in the city square. Usually, they're out in the boonies, or in a cellar of a house on the outskirts.  

Yes, I've run very varied combat scenarios since I started gaming in 1979.

No, its definitely a concrete combat system issue. 

I've already knocked out a paragraph laying out the possibilities for a six-second combat round that will surely serve our needs. Like I said, I've run Mythos campaigns before, just not using the CoC rules. 

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20 hours ago, JDS said:

I don't see melee coming into play in a 1920s setting, or even in an 1880s one. I can't imagine a player deciding that running up to a killer and punching them is superior to shooting them multiple times from a distance. Or at least, I don't see any point in keeping a player who thinks like that.

Well, cane swords / stickswords were still pretty widely manufactured in the early 20th century. In fact, I just made an upper class character for the 1920 Berlin setting who uses one (with the former corpsstudent package).

Edited by Susimetsa
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6 minutes ago, Susimetsa said:

Well, cane swords / stickswords were still pretty widely manufactured in the early 20th century. In fact, I just made an upper class character for the 1920 Berlin setting who uses one (with the former corpsstudent package).

Not a bad choice for urban use. 

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