Common Rune Spell access by Cult size

[Godlearner]

Page 269 of RQG says there are three types of cults major, medium and minor. These are determined mostly by the number of worshipers, but does not really go into the detail as to what the difference is for the worshipper. I am assuming that one of the differences is which Common rune spells are granted by the deity. Assuming that major Deity grants All Common spells, what spells are granted by medium and minor cults,?

[Richard S.]

Common spell access is a per-cult thing, there's no absolute general rule. Generally it's only minor cults that suffer from it, but CA does miss out on Warding and Eurmal only provides Divination, Extension, and Multispell. Oakfed and Black Fang both have severely truncated lists, being spirit cults.

[Godlearner]

3 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Common spell access is a per-cult thing, there's no absolute general rule. Generally it's only minor cults that suffer from it, but CA does miss out on Warding and Eurmal only provides Divination, Extension, and Multispell. Oakfed and Black Fang both have severely truncated lists, being spirit cults.

Any idea as to what a City God would get? Pavis?

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Any idea as to what a City God would get?

Depends on the city, but the key single spell is City Harmony (RBM 28), other magics are dependant on the relationship with associate cults.

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Pavis?

Under RQG Pavis is pretty much the same except all common spells (which existed in a different form) and the single spell of City Harmony. Cult runes are Stasis, Man, Harmony. There are small elementals available from subservient cults and a slew of spells from associate cults, just use Cults of Prax as is for all of this.

[Ludo Bagman]

Another example is Aldrya. Access to the common rune spells is restricted according to the standing in the cult: Initiates and Rune Lords only get Divination, shamans only Divination and Sanctify, while dryads (Elder Sister subcult) and old Rune Lords and shamans (Gardener subcult) get all common spells.

[Godlearner]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Under RQG Pavis is pretty much the same except all common spells (which existed in a different form)

That's what I am looking for.

[David Scott]

11 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

That's what I am looking for.

oops missed out the has - has all common spells and the single spell of City Harmony. 

[Godlearner]

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

has all common spells and the single spell of City Harmony. 

What about Enchantments?

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

What about Enchantments?

The priests and Rune lord (if there is ever another) can learn all of the common enchantments with the enchant Rune (metal) being iron. As usual, most of a city god's magic only works only inside the city walls.

[Jose]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

The priests and Rune lord (if there is ever another) can learn all of the common enchantments with the enchant Rune (metal) being iron. As usual, most of a city god's magic only works only inside the city walls.

About geographic limits to magic, I hope that is explained in the cults book. I thought that you could access the God plane from anywhere in Glorantha and if you can access the God plane then you can  access the magic. Is not the God plane myths the source of rune magic? 

[Richard S.]

56 minutes ago, Jose said:

About geographic limits to magic, I hope that is explained in the cults book. I thought that you could access the God plane from anywhere in Glorantha and if you can access the God plane then you can  access the magic. Is not the God plane myths the source of rune magic? 

The god is the source of the magic, the myths are the pathway. They can't provide magic where they don't have influence, like how Lunar Magic is weakened when the moon is dark (except within the glowline of course) and the Windstop prevented Orlanth's magic from being used. Pavis, as a city god, only has power within Old and New Pavis.

[Godlearner]

25 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

They can't provide magic where they don't have influence

Yes, but they can cast these spells if they have power in their Rune pool. The only exception should be Sanctify and Summon Cult Spirit.

[Richard S.]

14 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yes, but they can cast these spells if they have power in their Rune pool. The only exception should be Sanctify and Summon Cult Spirit.

Rune points aren't like magic points, they aren't power that the caster actually holds, they're just a measure of how much of their deity's power they can channel. It doesn't matter how many RP you have saved up if you can't reach the place the magic actually comes from.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Rune points aren't like magic points, they aren't power that the caster actually holds, they're just a measure of how much of their deity's power they can channel. It doesn't matter how many RP you have saved up if you can't reach the place the magic actually comes from.

If what you are saying is true, then it should not be called a Rune Pool, but rather Divine Resistor. I just do not see it that way, especially when it is emptied, before POW on a Divine Intervention.

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, Jose said:

About geographic limits to magic, I hope that is explained in the cults book. I thought that you could access the God plane from anywhere in Glorantha and if you can access the God plane then you can access the magic. Is not the God plane myths the source of rune magic? 

It's specifically City Harmony, so Pavis is limited to within Pavis, Shargash within Alkoth, etc. The common magic likely works outside, but initiates of a city god are unlikely to stray far from the city as that's where they renew their rune points. There are a couple of other examples of this, like Kero Fin's three special rune spells can only be cast within the sight of her mountain.

City gods are local by their nature, so is their magic.

[Steve]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

like Kero Fin's three special rune spells can only be cast within the sight of her mountain.

Which must be a loooooooooonnnnggggg way in fair weather, right? Though of course above ground, not inside with no windows in the right direction, etc.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Steve

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

It's specifically City Harmony, so Pavis is limited to within Pavis, Shargash within Alkoth, etc.

Yes, that is as it was previously. What I was saying is that their other spells are not similarly affected. 

[Graeme P]

On 3/17/2022 at 9:05 AM, Richard S. said:

The god is the source of the magic, the myths are the pathway. They can't provide magic where they don't have influence, like how Lunar Magic is weakened when the moon is dark (except within the glowline of course) and the Windstop prevented Orlanth's magic from being used. Pavis, as a city god, only has power within Old and New Pavis.

This seems logical to me - to a point. But if a City God then has a mythic act that occurred outside their city couldn't there be a (perhaps localised) place outside the city itself where worshippers have a connection to that god such that their rune magic would work?

An obvious example for Pavis is when he went to the Paps and healed Waha. Each Pavis High Holy Day this is re-enacted in Pavis, but the actual action itself was outside the City. Pavis's actions have influenced the way that Waha and Eiritha perceive and treat with him and his cult - this action occurred at the Paps and so that location has a connection to him/his cult.  The location where he animated the Faceless Statue as well, perhaps?

I also think that a city God's magic extends some way from the city. The idea that when Pavis was attacked and/or beseiged over the years if any worshipper fought outside the walls they had no access to Rune magic but if they fought inside the walls they then had full access is (in my view) frankly ludicrous.  If that were true Pavis would never have developed cavalry - why develop elite and well-equipped troops with valuable zebras knowing that their abilites are significanly impaired when they are carrying out their primary function?  In RQG terms, do all initiates of Pavis in Pavis County and who can worship locally every week have to make a pilgrimage to Pavis to restore their Rune Points?  Seems like a great time for the nomads (or worse) to raid their farms and towns whilst all the adults are away!  Durng the generations when the Rubble was closed there would never have been any way for Pavis worshippers to get or replenish Rune Points if they had to go to Real City to do it - that also seems ridiculous to me,and probably would have had people turn to other gods such that Pavis worship would have been wiped out in Pavis County.

It is not the case that a clan or town wyter can only act in it's own town - it has influence throughout the clan's lands. Why the restriction on city gods?  Both have geographic limits on their power (which I agree with), shouldn't both work in similar ways insofar as their area of influence?

Am quite interested in other folk's views on this.  🙂 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Graeme P
typos

[Darius West]

6 hours ago, Graeme P said:

It is not the case that a clan or town wyter can only act in it's own town - it has influence throughout the clan's lands.

I can say with certainty that while often true, this isn't entirely the case.  Clan and town Wyters are likely to have foci of worship that is mobile, a bit like a mobile shrine which are present in many religions.  In the Hero Wars, Argrath will teach people how to activate their wyters and weaponize them, and it is likely that he is not the originator of that trick.  Lunar Phalanxes have wyters in their standards and they can be prayed to by phalangites for benefits.  The Sartar Magical Union uses huge wyter spirits to attack the Lunars.  The magic is linked to the illusive 7th Lightbringer Ginna Jar (who may or may not have been Arachne Solara), but who served as the Lightbringer's secret "Esprit de Corps".

6 hours ago, Graeme P said:

Why the restriction on city gods?  Both have geographic limits on their power (which I agree with), shouldn't both work in similar ways insofar as their area of influence?

I believe the restriction is on the spell City Harmony only, as it specifically causes peace within New Pavis and the Big Rubble.  You don't get to cast City Peace in another city, or out in the plains of Prax.  You  can cast your other Rune Spells elsewhere, as in the case of the Pavis cult, most of his magic is from associated cults from memory, and those associated cults don't have restrictions on where they can be cast.  In general, deities are able to project their magic anywhere but the sanctuary of another deity.  At least that's my take on it.

[Jose]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:45 AM, David Scott said:

It's specifically City Harmony, so Pavis is limited to within Pavis, Shargash within Alkoth, etc. The common magic likely works outside, but initiates of a city god are unlikely to stray far from the city as that's where they renew their rune points. There are a couple of other examples of this, like Kero Fin's three special rune spells can only be cast within the sight of her mountain.

City gods are local by their nature, so is their magic.

 I supose Kero fin  can be seen from a very long distance. 12.000 meters high and gloranthan earth is a flat surface. 

[Ian A. Thomson]

In My Glorantha, Pavis walked the bounds of Pavis County, marking out the territory he was granted by Waha. The result of this historical ritual is that Pavic magic also works within the County.

In other places I might have City God magic fade out a few miles from the walls maybe? Less for small settlements, a bit more for larger places?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[soltakss]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:21 AM, Ian Thomson said:

In other places I might have City God magic fade out a few miles from the walls maybe? Less for small settlements, a bit more for larger places?

We just played that Pavis Runemagic just doesn't work, so works inside the walls but not outside the walls. As it works inside Pavis County, as soon as you go outside Pavis County it stops working.

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:35 PM, Steve said:

Which must be a loooooooooonnnnggggg way in fair weather, right? Though of course above ground, not inside with no windows in the right direction, etc.

From the moon, if you’re on the right side?

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:35 AM, Graeme P said:

I also think that a city God's magic extends some way from the city.

I would imagine it could be a full city-state? So including the countryside.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

I would play it by density of worshippers, unless there is a specific arrangement, such as Pavis and Waha. It is a bit of chicken and egg. The farms that feed the city probably worship the city god, even if they are outside the nominal walls as they visit most days to trade, but they count as part of the city once a certain number of worshippers live around there. That way cities outgrow their walls. This is just a qualitative view, I have not really made a hard worshipper number.

Most farms would be out, but a slum or permanent residences will start to extend the cover. A large farm where the owners make sure there is a shrine and workers join may well extend the gods influence there. 

I play you have to be in the domain to cast the spell, but then the magic lasts normally.