Using the rules of the game, how are PCs expected to defeat "high-level" opponents?

[EpicureanDM]

Reading the Personalities section of @soltakss's excellent Secrets of Dorastor, I found creatures and opponents with eye-watering stats. 50 AP across each location, 30-HP averages across locations, weapon skills in the 300%+ range, damage ratings of 2D6 + 20D6. It makes me wonder if these are really intended to be used at the table or if they're "stunt stats" in some way.

I know that there's no such thing as "levels" in RuneQuest, but these creatures represent the top of the power range. In D&D terms, they're the ancient red dragons, the pit fiends, the Tarrasques, etc. Having played enough D&D over the years, I can look at these monsters and get some rough sense of what the characters that can defeat them will look like, their level, spells, magic items, etc. I can also figure out what their tactics might be, how they'll use their advantages to try and defeat the monster.

Stats like those in Secrets of Dorastor (and in other sources throughout RQ's published history) seem unapproachable, almost ludicrous. They strike me the same way as someone telling me that this ancient red dragon in D&D has AC 100, not AC 22 (in 5e terms) or AC -1 (in 1e terms). The numbers for high-level RQ opponents feel like they're off by an order of magnitude, even if they aren't off by the strict definition of that term.

In the Prologue for Secrets of Dorastor, @soltakss writes that the book springs from long-running RQ2 and RQ3 games that featured "High Level" characters. I assume that some of the PCs in that game actually fought and defeated some of the high-level opponents mentioned in the book. On the basis of that assumption, I have these questions:

1. What were those PCs stats, skills, spells, gear, etc.? I can look at Rune Masters to see what "High Level" characters looked like in the RQ2 days. Is that what they looked like in this campaign?
2. What tactics did the PCs use to actually win these fights using the rules and dice? How did the players use what was on their character sheets and the rules of the game to win?
3. How long were these fights? Were they over in three rounds? Ten? How did the rules of the game impact their length?

I know that Secrets of Dorastor is technically an RQG product and the source campaign ran under RQ2/3. I'm familiar enough with the rules of RQ2, RQ3, and RQG to spot how differences in how RQ2/3 did things might impact how they're done in RQG. Just tell me how it was done in RQ2/3. 😉

If anyone else has specific examples of how their groups used the rules of the game to defeat an opponent on par with the heavyweights from Secrets of Dorastor, I'm all ears.

[g33k]

1.  Dorastor is a deadly place.  If your PC only has a few years' experience -- at 1 adventure per season -- they can probably only survive in minor actions; not against the heavy hitters.

OTOH, the same is true of figures like the Argrath, Jar-Ell, Sir Ethilrist, etc:  your PC's need to be Hero-Wars-Ready to play in those leagues.

2.  Very, very experienced characters can nevertheless become competetive.  Taking one element -- skills at 300% -- I'll observe than natural skills above 100% aren't too hard to achieve.  From there, add things like MP-boosted Rune Magic (True Sword with 20+ MP's, etc), and rare-or-unique abilities gained from Heroquesting, etc (more on this (in canon) is likely to be in the forthcoming GM's book; before that, I'd look to another @soltakss title, Secrets of Heroquesting (I would presume this, in particular, to be the author's own answer to "how our PCs survived") ).

[Godlearner]

Having written some of the Dorastor stuff with Simon, and having played in similarly high-powered games, I must admit that there is a specific thing that led to a victory, and that was "Economy of Actions". The bad guy could kick out butts one on one, but it did not matter if his skill was 500% because he is still limited to so many actions per round. He may take down several PCs, but then the rest would overwhelm him.

[EpicureanDM]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Very, very experienced characters can nevertheless become competetive.  Taking one element -- skills at 300% -- I'll observe than natural skills above 100% aren't too hard to achieve.  From there, add things like MP-boosted Rune Magic (True Sword with 20+ MP's, etc), and rare-or-unique abilities gained from Heroquesting, etc (more on this (in canon) is likely to be in the forthcoming GM's book; before that, I'd look to another @soltakss title, Secrets of Heroquesting (I would presume this, in particular, to be the author's own answer to "how our PCs survived") ).

My group played RQ3 steadily for two or three years and intermittently throughout the '80's. Skills started much lower than they do in RQG and even during our steady years, I don't think I saw anyone advance a skill much past 120-130% naturally using skill checks. Once you get to 100%, the odds of increase were so low that plenty of skill advancement rolls just failed. And that was in the days when attack and parry advanced separately. If part of the answer to my question is that PCs need to naturally achieve 150% in their primary weapon skill and that will require three years of weekly play, that's fine. I just want to hear how the rules produce characters of sufficient power to take down the big threats.

What do characters who can beat these creatures look like? How do the rules produce them? I'm looking for responses from people who have produced these characters using the game's rules in play.

As for True Sword, aren't you thinking of Axe Trance? In both RQ3 and RQG, that seems to be the one that allows you to funnel magic points, not True Sword. True Sword just doubles your damage and isn't stackable with itself.

I also own and admire Secrets of Heroquest, but it doesn't have the sort of information I'm looking for. 😉

27 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Having written some of the Dorastor stuff with Simon, and having played in similarly high-powered games, I must admit that there is a specific thing that led to a victory, and that was "Economy of Actions". The bad guy could kick out butts one on one, but it did not matter if his skill was 500% because he is still limited to so many actions per round. He may take down several PCs, but then the rest would overwhelm him.

Dorastor's a great book. Congratulations. 😉

I'm familiar with the concept of the "action economy," but it's a little underwhelming as an answer. With the greatest good humor, it reads like this to me:

• "How did the PCs beat this monster?"
• "The GM played the monster badly."

How many PCs is "several'? Even that's helpful, particular information. As a GM, am I expected to understand that only groups with 8 PCs have a chance against a particular monster because 6 will die guaranteed over the first four rounds? Besides, lots of the write-ups of Personalities in Secrets of Dorastor mention allied spirits, fetches, damage immunities, special Rune magic, or retinues that make it unlikely that it's just one monster against a group of PCs. The stats for The Mistress of Light on pg. 87 of Secrets says that the Mistress exudes a shimmering glow that subtracts 200% from opponents attacks. 200%! So my PCs need to have some sort of magic or gear that gives them at least +200% to even get them back on level ground! 

Has anyone fought The Mistress of Light? What rules did they use to counteract that massive penalty?

[French Desperate WindChild]

note that if I remember well @soltakss used some heroquesting house rules helping you to raise your skill a lot (+xd6 % things like that after 1 heroquest)

 

but that is house rules. I cannot imagine, on my table, just a group of pc fighting the soltakss pc or opponents.

we have two different ways of play

 

so three options (I would use the first, and maybe once the last, but not the second) :

- reduce the stats to have dangerous opponents but not impossible opponents

- use soltakss heroquesting rules (but that means your pc would probably not be able to follow official scenarios - too easy - except if you  raise the stats to have dangerous opponents and not too weak opponents)

- tell your pc there is always another way (of course explain them that the people they will fight are too strong for standard human), and maybe you will have the surprise to see them able to succeed, but not with a "standard"  fight. And if not, maybe it was just a dream or some external hq and your players were defeated only in dreams or god time but not dead once awake

[Godlearner]

42 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

he stats for The Mistress of Light on pg. 87 of Secrets says that the Mistress exudes a shimmering glow that subtracts 200% from opponents attacks. 200%! So my PCs need to have some sort of magic or gear that gives them at least +200% to even get them back on level ground! 

Look, your average PCs will go up against her and die. The players need to have their own special abilities, magic items, allied spirits, etc. Taking on a hero is a job for a hero. You are also assuming that the enemy is always prepared and is able to use everything they have. That is not the case. They can be surprised, outwitted, distracted PCs can may search and find their weakness, or something that strips certain abilities. This is a Boss  fight and needs to be approached as one.

[EpicureanDM]

44 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so three options (I would use the first, and maybe once the last, but not the second) :

- reduce the stats to have dangerous opponents but not impossible opponents

- use soltakss heroquesting rules (but that means your pc would probably not be able to follow official scenarios - too easy - except if you  raise the stats to have dangerous opponents and not too weak opponents)

- tell your pc there is always another way (of course explain them that the people they will fight are too strong for standard human), and maybe you will have the surprise to see them able to succeed, but not with a "standard"  fight. And if not, maybe it was just a dream or some external hq and your players were defeated only in dreams or god time but not dead once awake

All fair enough, but these NPCs and opponents (not just in Secrets) are presented in the same format as bandits to be dispatched in the Rubble. It suggests that I should be able to use those stats as they're found, just as I would for bandits my PCs find in the Rubble. But I see stuff like "-200% to all PC attacks" and it doesn't seem like I'm meant to take that seriously in the same way that I'm supposed to accept that a Rubble bandit has Bladesharp 3.

36 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Look, your average PCs will go up against her and die. The players need to have their own special abilities, magic items, allied spirits, etc. Taking on a hero is a job for a hero. You are also assuming that the enemy is always prepared and is able to use everything they have. That is not the case. They can be surprised, outwitted, distracted PCs can may search and find their weakness, or something that strips certain abilities. This is a Boss  fight and needs to be approached as one.

I agree with all of that. So tell me about the special abilities, magic items, and allied spirits that you've seen used to defeat foes even close to the level of these NPCs. How do the players actually use the rules of the game, round by round, to win this sort of fight? Don't describe it in the abstract. "Boss monsters can be surprised, outwitted, distracted, PCs can search and find their weaknesses, or something that strips certain abilities" is a statement that can be made about any game. I could write that about D&D, Rolemaster, Cyberpunk 2020, GURPS, you name it. 

Tell me how to beat these opponents using RuneQuest's rules, dice, and numbers. How many rounds did you have to prep your magic? What spells did you cast during that prep? What were your allied spirits doing during a combat round while your character did their thing? Was the battle only won with a critical hit? How many times did Rune Lords invoke Divine Intervention to return to the battle? Has nobody ever actually fought these opponents using the rules of the game? Why can't anyone give me some sort of "battle report" describing how one of these fights goes?

It's fine if the answer is, "We've never done it by the rules," or "We make up a bunch of house rules and handwave some stuff." But that should be made clear when presenting these high-level monsters. There should be a sidebar explaining to the GM that these stats are theoretical somehow or that they aren't really meant to be used in play. 

If someone has done it fair-and-square using published rules, I'm quite keen to know how it's done.

Edited April 1, 2022 by EpicureanDM

[svensson]

Three things...

Luck, Rune Points, and Heroquesting.

High 'level' opponents got that way through extraordinary circumstances. In order to square off with them with any kind of chance for success, your players need to be equally extraordinary.

Good Lord, Queen Leika isn't even a 'Hero-with-a-capital-H', and she's in the upper 5% of the human genome on sheer characteristics alone. The woman has no 'dump stat' like most PCs do. She has Heroquested for powers and skills, fought major opponents and survived, and has risen from defeat after defeat to stand as Queen of the Colymar. Most of her Tribal Ring is in the same category! And those people would have a seriously hard time going up against the likes of Brangbane the Ghoul King from the 'Pegasus Plateau' scenarios book. Take a look at the Gamemaster's Adventures book from the 'Gamemaster's Screen Pack'. Look at the incredibly high speed /low drag gear that the players are going to need to handle the dream dragon Yerezum Storn. That's the kind of gear PCs require to handle the big boys in RQ.

RQG give us characters that are still mortals, who haven't reached the level of Heroes yet. And at that level, they're just not packing the gear to face off against major enemies like Mistress of Light.

Edited April 2, 2022 by svensson

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Reading the Personalities section of @soltakss's excellent Secrets of Dorastor, I found creatures and opponents with eye-watering stats. 50 AP across each location, 30-HP averages across locations, weapon skills in the 300%+ range, damage ratings of 2D6 + 20D6. It makes me wonder if these are really intended to be used at the table or if they're "stunt stats" in some way.

 

One thing of import... as you are playing RQ there is much less reason to kill all these tough beasties to defeat them.

 

7 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

they're the ancient red dragons,

Precisely my point. Tough!

 

7 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

from long-running RQ2 and RQ3 games that featured "High Level" characters. I assume that some of the PCs in that game actually fought and defeated some of the high-level opponents mentioned in the book.

...fought, defeated and were killed ( I am positive, but this is what makes a hero different from you and I) and had to DI themselves back to go at it again. 

 

7 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I know that Secrets of Dorastor is technically an RQG product

Actually, as much as I love Simon (sorry, did I use my outdoor voice... my bad... i meant “like", honest) he is not putting out RQG products. He is putting out great fan products for the Jonstown Compendium that use the RQG rules. 

...and I will let some else (perhaps Simon) answer those three great questions.

7 hours ago, g33k said:

1.  Dorastor is a deadly place. 

YES!!!!

 

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Having written some of the Dorastor stuff with Simon, and having played in similarly high-powered games, I must admit that there is a specific thing that led to a victory, and that was "Economy of Actions".

Tactics go a long way against a critter with STR SIZ and DEX of 3000 (exaggerating) and an INT of 7 (not necessarily exaggerating)!

 

5 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

My group played RQ3 steadily for two or three years and intermittently throughout the '80's. Skills started much lower than they do in RQG and even during our steady years, I don't think I saw anyone advance a skill much past 120-130% naturally using skill checks.

Yeah, I call the current crop of new PCs superheroes! A 700% attack is possible with a freshly minted PC these days! (not kidding)

 

5 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

• "The GM played the monster badly."

See above comment on INT (they might be doing so with good reason).

 

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

That is not the case. They can be surprised, outwitted, distracted PCs can may search and find their weakness, or something that strips certain abilities. This is a Boss  fight and needs to be approached as one.

and a visit to the friendly local LM temple will be a good start in making those things kind of things happen.

 

4 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

If someone has done it fair-and-square using published rules, I'm quite keen to know how it's done.

A fair question, @soltakssand @Godlearner maybe this gourmand game master deserves an example. He has been asking!

 

3 hours ago, svensson said:

Luck, Rune Points, and Heroquesting.

 

I will go with the first and third for sure!

Hey, yer a military man, any great ideas from Real World History for doing the impossible (i.e. beating the denizens of Dorastor... impossible, right)? Perhaps soltakss and Godlearner could use a bit of help in some good examples. Me, I just say you don’t have to kill them to win... (victory conditions may be flexible).

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Nick Brooke]

If your group is playing SuperRuneQuest variants like Simon’s, with loads of “heroquest rewards” to escalate adventurers’ capabilities, you can certainly power up enough to go toe-to-toe with those grossly-statted monsters, defeat Harrek, and so on. The problem is, you’re not really playing RuneQuest the way the rest of us do at that point, and anything Chaosium brings out won’t easily work in your games. That’s kinda why many of us have moved past that model. But if you and your GM like “levelling up,” there’s nothing wrong with that, and you can treat those gross stats as a challenge, rather than a warning.

Dorastor: Land of Doom for RQ3 had similarly gross monster statblocks: Sandy (Call of Cthulhu) Petersen likes writing them that way. The problem is that there wasn’t a campaign structured to let you toughen up enough to beat them. (There isn’t one in Call of Cthulhu, either, which may explain why he wrote them that way: these are ancient terrors, not monsters to be defeated in attritional melee rounds).

But people play RuneQuest with different expectations. Work out where you’re happiest, and play it that way.

[svensson]

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I will go with the first and third for sure!

Hey, yer a military man, any great ideas from Real World History for doing the impossible (i.e. beating the denizens of Dorastor... impossible, right)? Perhaps soltakss and Godlearner could use a bit of help in some good examples. Me, I just say you don’t have to kill them to win... (victory conditions may be flexible).

 

There are many stories in military history of normal men doing incredible things. The problem is the casualty count among them! VERY few PC's are willing to look around the table and play the 'OK which one of you buys it' game.

After all, Leonidas didn't live to bask in his glory and Themistocles was exiled. Cuz, 'thank you for your service'....

Reinforcing @Nick Brooke's point, there are some opponents that have stats to deter players from going toe-to-toe with them. Player characters need to know when something is simply above their pay grade. Even Lady Nameless of the Colymar and Sarostip Prince-Killer of Jonstown, as badass a  pair of Swords of Humakt as you're ever likely to meet, say 'yes, ma'am' in real respectful tones when Jar-Eel comes to call.

[Russ Massey]

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

 Even Lady Nameless of the Colymar and Sarostip Prince-Killer of Jonstown, as badass a  pair of Swords of Humakt as you're ever likely to meet, say 'yes, ma'am' in real respectful tones when Jar-Eel comes to call.

Unless they have 'Hate Lunars' above 80% of course, and the GM forces them to attack...

[Nick Brooke]

54 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

Unless they have 'Hate Lunars' above 80% of course, and the GM forces them to attack...

Then you need a better GM. Luckily this campaign just ended, so it’s time to shop around.

[JRE]

How I would do it, if I needed to, though we never had the need. 

This is not a chance encounter, it must be something deliberate. The Gloranthan solution of course involves heroquests. The players must research or improvise them, depending on the game's style. I would require at least three, one to weaken the monster, one to turn a character into a temporary monster killer, and a third one to make sure the monster will be when and where you want it. Depending on the monster a fourth one to make it stay in hell or wherever you sent it would be necessary after you send it there.

After the quests you still need to do the deed in Time, which would require the other characters and usually a host of cannon fodder to take the primed character to the monster and use whatever power I gave them (all hits are  criticals, or ignore its armor, or immunity to its magic... it would depend on the monster, but also on the shared design quest). Who will be the hero has to be decided before even the quests start, so the character still needs to do her part well, and probably roll well, or have some people sacrifice themselves to hava another roll. The kind of show where several Divine Interventions will be planned in advance, and some characters need a year to recover magic and POW.

Jar Eel probably would do it in the same way, but she can set up the quests in three weeks rather than three seasons and the Sacred Time. Harrek would just go, and the smart monsters would not be there when he arrives, so he is good for the dumb ones.

Or you could convince someone and send a three mile long iron bolt, or a chunk of the moon, or the mother of all Sunspears. But you still need to make sure the monster is there, and that it is not coming back... Not all violence needs to be yours.

[Martin Dick]

 

I have to say, I read Secrets of Dorastor and was boggled at how tough these creatures were and I couldn't imagine how these creatures had been defeated by any possible RQ2/3 character in the campaign.

But isn't this a bit more relevant to mainline campaigns than might be thought. Don't the Lunar bring Cwim to one of the battles in Prax? And down the track in the Hero Wars, Dorastor level opponents appear from my reading of it and of course Harrek, Sheng and Jar-Eel are at that level too, so won't there be some Super RQG in our campaign's futures?

[Nick Brooke]

52 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

But isn't this a bit more relevant to mainline campaigns than might be thought. Don't the Lunar bring Cwim to one of the battles in Prax? And down the track in the Hero Wars, Dorastor level opponents appear from my reading of it and of course Harrek, Sheng and Jar-Eel are at that level too, so won't there be some Super RQG in our campaign's futures?

"How did Jack get to be as big and strong as all those Giants he killed?"

"How did Bilbo Baggins, a hobbit, get to be more powerful than Smaug, an ancient red dragon?"

If those look like sensible questions to you, you'll probably enjoy SuperRuneQuest.

[svensson]

53 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

"How did Jack get to be as big and strong as all those Giants he killed?"

"How did Bilbo Baggins, a hobbit, get to be more powerful than Smaug, an ancient red dragon?"

If those look like sensible questions to you, you'll probably enjoy SuperRuneQuest.

Quick answer: THEY DIDN'T.

Bilbo knew good and Eru-be-damned well that if he tried to face off with Smaug, he'd be a rat-kabob.

Jack talked too much and found himself at the deep end of the pool before he knew how to float.

We need to accept two things as RQ players:

a] Our characters are not central to the story of the Hero Wars and the defeat of the Red Goddess. Those roles are reserved for Argrath, Jar-Eel, Harrek the Berserk, and the Red Emperor. Our characters, if they are tough, smart, and lucky, will be the equivalent of Merry and Pippin in LOTR... amusing little fellows that have a couple of sideshow scenes and that's about it.

b] We are never going to be tough enough to square off against the likes of Cragspider. Your character is not, and never will be that bad ass. Your entire party would get its ass handed to it by the 'upper middle-weight' division of RQ opponents, like K'Rana the Humakti Scorpion Queen or Mistress the Last.

When I talk about RQ to d20 players, I tell them that no matter how good or how experienced they are their character ALWAYS has a minimum 5% of getting killed out right by a 'goblin'... A trollkin gets an Impale result with his short spear and hits you in the head [2d6+1d4 damage x 0.75 = 11 pts. of damage vs the average 5 pts. of head armor and 5 pts. of head HP]. In RuneQuest, you don't get 'warm up fights', you treat each fight like it may be your last because it is. Players need to understand that the way the story and mythology of RQ is written, you will never be Elminster or Mordenkainen. Ever.

Edited April 2, 2022 by svensson

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

We need to accept two things as RQ players:

that is my glorantha (or an aspect of my glorantha) too 🙂

 

But I would accept other players/GMs would see the thing differently and would like to defeat the red emperor, harreck or why not the invisible god. After all our glorantha may vary

that is not my pleasure to have pc able to kill all the colymar court in few rounds, for sure. Except when the campain is dedicated to pc living in underworld/godtime/etc

the issue with jonstown publications is "if your pc are qualified to this scenario, they may be too powerful for this one or too week for this one. If your pcs follow this house rule, they may be absolutly unbalanced for the chaosium publications, etc....)

it could be relevant to define a kind of notation like

A: scenario/rules for weaker pc than new pc created with the rqg core rules

B: scenario/rules for standard pc (created with rqg core rules)

C scenario/rules for experimented pc (able to fight a full phalanx)

D scenario/rules for pc able to fight a clan

E scenario/rules for pc able to fight a tribe

...

X scenario/rules for pc able to challenge Argrath / Red emperor / ...

Y scenario/rules for pc able to challenge a god

Z scenario/rules for pc able to challenge the cosmic dragon

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Soccercalle]

Ralzakark who may be the most powerful being in Dorastor was killed by the human Uroxi Oddi from Talastar. I wonder how powerful Oddi is. 

[EpicureanDM]

If the consensus is that we're talking about "stunt stats," that's fine. It strikes me as a bit silly, like someone publishing that a D&D monster has AC 500 and immunity to all spells. Even the Bestiary's authors can't resist the temptation, but they at least call out the fact that they're goofing off.

I still think it's weird that no one seems capable of talking about RuneQuest's power curve in terms of actual play using the rules. I can read a few pages in Rune Masters - a book that's almost 40 years old - about what high-level combat is like, but can't find any modern players who can describe having done it themselves. People seem to know what a high-level stat block looks like, but no one ever talks about using them in play. It's all vague references and allusions to Gloranthan battles and history that I'm told I should ignore when I ask how I can create those moments in my RuneQuest game.

 

[JRE]

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

Ralzakark who may be the most powerful being in Dorastor was killed by the human Uroxi Oddi from Talastar. I wonder how powerful Oddi is. 

If I remember right, Ralzakark was killed by Oddi with the Ironbreaker Sword of the Bilini, that you can order to kill anyone, but that will also cost you your life. Ralzakark came back. Oddi did not.

Getting such a weapon would be an example of heroquest. You can have mundane or mythical heroquests, but achieving them is the mark of a hero. 

[Nick Brooke]

I don't want to put words into your mouth, @EpicureanDM, but are you asking us "How could you defeat these monsters without making it an interesting story or making use of Glorantha's history and mythology in any way?" Because the answer to that, obviously, is "You can't."

There are epic scenarios on the Jonstown Compendium that show you how to bring absurdly powerful creatures into consequential RuneQuest play. Check out Drew's Company of the Dragon, or my own Black Spear. But they aren't about going toe-to-toe with kaiju, or arm-wrestling King Kong into submission, because that'd be silly.

[soltakss]

Apologies for the long post and for quoting everyone.

16 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Reading the Personalities section of @soltakss's excellent Secrets of Dorastor, I found creatures and opponents with eye-watering stats. 50 AP across each location, 30-HP averages across locations, weapon skills in the 300%+ range, damage ratings of 2D6 + 20D6. It makes me wonder if these are really intended to be used at the table or if they're "stunt stats" in some way.

They are definitely no stunt-stats, all were used in my RQ3 Dorastor Campaign.

16 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I know that there's no such thing as "levels" in RuneQuest, but these creatures represent the top of the power range. In D&D terms, they're the ancient red dragons, the pit fiends, the Tarrasques, etc. Having played enough D&D over the years, I can look at these monsters and get some rough sense of what the characters that can defeat them will look like, their level, spells, magic items, etc. I can also figure out what their tactics might be, how they'll use their advantages to try and defeat the monster.

Yes, these are the truly awe-inspiring and dangerous monsters of Glorantha.

Taking them on is the province of Heroes.

Are your Adventurers Heroes? Yes? Then come and try to take them on. No? Then work towards becoming Heroes.

By the way, there are Levels in RQG, as described on p63 of the RQG Rules:

• Novice (25% or less): A skill rating in this range suggests a largely untrained skill. The adage “knows enough to be dangerous” applies well here. 
• Amateur (26–50%): Ratings in this range indicate a little talent, some rudimentary training, or dabbling in the skill.
• Professional (51–75%): At this rating, the adventurer can make a living using the skill. 
• Veteran (76–90%): Skills in this range indicate advanced expertise. 
• Master (91%+): Ratings of 91% or more indicate mastery of the skill.

I would add at least one more level, maybe Legendary at 150% and Heroic at 450%.

16 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Stats like those in Secrets of Dorastor (and in other sources throughout RQ's published history) seem unapproachable, almost ludicrous. They strike me the same way as someone telling me that this ancient red dragon in D&D has AC 100, not AC 22 (in 5e terms) or AC -1 (in 1e terms). The numbers for high-level RQ opponents feel like they're off by an order of magnitude, even if they aren't off by the strict definition of that term.

The PCs in our shared RQ2 Campaign reached similar power levels through normal play. 1 scenario a week, 40 weeks a year for 3 tears.

It depends on your Campaign, really. If you hit similar levels then you might need similar levels of opponents to battle.

20 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

n the Prologue for Secrets of Dorastor, @soltakss writes that the book springs from long-running RQ2 and RQ3 games that featured "High Level" characters. I assume that some of the PCs in that game actually fought and defeated some of the high-level opponents mentioned in the book. On the basis of that assumption, I have these questions:

1. What were those PCs stats, skills, spells, gear, etc.? I can look at Rune Masters to see what "High Level" characters looked like in the RQ2 days. Is that what they looked like in this campaign?
2. What tactics did the PCs use to actually win these fights using the rules and dice? How did the players use what was on their character sheets and the rules of the game to win?
3. How long were these fights? Were they over in three rounds? Ten? How did the rules of the game impact their length?

Yes, the PCs in those campaigns fought most, or all of the NPCs described in Secrets of Dorastor.

When I put out an NPC opponent, I give no thought at all as to how PCs can defeat it. In fact, PCs defeating NPCs is nothing to do with me, so I give no thought to it at all. If Players cannot find a way to defect an NPC, then tough.

20 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

1. What were those PCs stats, skills, spells, gear, etc.? I can look at Rune Masters to see what "High Level" characters looked like in the RQ2 days. Is that what they looked like in this campaign?

Here is the writeup of Soltak Stormspear, my main PC in the RQ2 Campaign. He was by no means the most powerful PC in the campaign, but was versatlile.

They ranged from about 130% to 300% in terms of skill. Raven was an INT 24 Elf and had Elf Bow of 300%, I think, she also had some Power Arrows that turned a normal hit into a special, a special into a critical; and a critical into a critical special (Impaling damage, ignoring armour). Derak the Dark Troll had about 300% Troll Maul and a higher Sense Chaos, being in Storm Bull as well as Zorak Zoran. Shergar Sunhoof, Centaur Extraordinaire, was my other main PC but his highest skill was about 130%, although he made up for it in sheer bulk and variety of attacks.

They were more balanced than RuneMasters and had more magical items, but yes, RuneMasters is not far off.

20 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

2. What tactics did the PCs use to actually win these fights using the rules and dice? How did the players use what was on their character sheets and the rules of the game to win?

Tactics varied according to the Personality they fought.

They just killed the Man of Light in normal combat.

Derak killed Heidi the Hydra using nothing but a Golden Dagger, as she really annoyed him by destroying some of his armour. He dove beneath the water and impaled her in the body, then kept pressing it in until she died. He merged with 3 HPs, 1 MP and no Rune Spells left to cast, pretty much.

When Ralzakark had Heidi Resurrected, the Party were so appalled that they HeroQuested for tools to kill her. One of the things they gained was Stone to Kill Chaos. They went after Heide with a view to killing her and when they found her, they cast Sureshot on the Stone to Kill Chaos and threw it at her, rolling a 100, a Fumble. I laughed and laughed. Then Brankist Farlow, the Orlanthi, cast Flight on it and argued that it was still moving, so, feeling generous I allowed it and asked him to roll 1D4 for the number of pieces Heidi fell into, they rolled 3, so I asked then to roll 1D20 three times, they rolled two heads and a body, so I said that two of her heads fell off and started to regrow. You should have heard the complaints, out came rulebooks and so on, as they argued their point. I left them to stew for almost 30 minutes before "reluctantly" agreeing, even though I knew that she was dead. I laughed at that, as well.

They did not kill the Great Gorp of Slimestone, as all it did when it died was to break up into smaller Gorp that simply merged again afterwards.

Brankist killed the Son of Thed with a single blow, but he had an ability that doubled his skill against Broo and another ability that allowed him to double damage against Broo, also his Humakti Gift gave him double penetrating damage against Chaos, so he Teleported to its head and swung with an over 500% attack, doing over 50 points of damage direct to its head. Game Over. It came back later and he did it again. Both times it lasted 1 round of combat.

Bolgar, Brother of the Bull, used a Garrotte to kill Cacodemon, by Teleporting behind his head and just pulling until he cut his head off. It also protected him from Cacodemon's Vomit Acid effect.

20 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

3. How long were these fights? Were they over in three rounds? Ten? How did the rules of the game impact their length?

Brankist's combat with the Son of Thed lasted 1 round each time.

Derak's combat with Heide lasted probably 50 rounds, or something like that, it took about one session, with the other PCs helping with Mind Link and casting healing spells on him.

I used the Fatigue rules, as we played RQ3 then, so combats tired them out. Apart from that, Magic Points was the major limiting factor.

Had I used RQ2 Anti-Parry, the fights would have been shorter.

20 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I know that Secrets of Dorastor is technically an RQG product and the source campaign ran under RQ2/3. I'm familiar enough with the rules of RQ2, RQ3, and RQG to spot how differences in how RQ2/3 did things might impact how they're done in RQG. Just tell me how it was done in RQ2/3. 😉

Most things would work the same. 

Anti-Parry, as used in RQ2 and RQG changes combat.

Having limited Rune Points would definitely affect things and makes the game less Heroic, in my opinion.

20 hours ago, g33k said:

1.  Dorastor is a deadly place.  If your PC only has a few years' experience -- at 1 adventure per season -- they can probably only survive in minor actions; not against the heavy hitters.

Exactly, Dorastor is meant as a gross theme park where Adventurers come to die. My games are not like that, of course, as I am a notoriously kind and lenient GM.

20 hours ago, g33k said:

OTOH, the same is true of figures like the Argrath, Jar-Ell, Sir Ethilrist, etc:  your PC's need to be Hero-Wars-Ready to play in those leagues.

Exactly. You have to be near-Heroic to take down Heroes. Sometimes, taking down Heroes makes you a Hero.

20 hours ago, g33k said:

2.  Very, very experienced characters can nevertheless become competetive.  Taking one element -- skills at 300% -- I'll observe than natural skills above 100% aren't too hard to achieve.  From there, add things like MP-boosted Rune Magic (True Sword with 20+ MP's, etc), and rare-or-unique abilities gained from Heroquesting, etc (more on this (in canon) is likely to be in the forthcoming GM's book; before that, I'd look to another @soltakss title, Secrets of Heroquesting (I would presume this, in particular, to be the author's own answer to "how our PCs survived") ).

Exactly. Gaining skills of 300% was not impossible in RQ2 with a long campaign.

We did use HeroQuesting in my campaigns, surprisingly enough, but it generally didn't increase skill levels that much.

When PCs went to the God Plane, all their skills and Characteristics were divided by 5, making most of them minor players, If they succeeded in using a skill and gained experience, they gained 5D6 points in the skill. This came from correspondence with Greg Stafford and Steve Perrin, a long time ago. However, they didn't do that very often.

19 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Having written some of the Dorastor stuff with Simon, and having played in similarly high-powered games, I must admit that there is a specific thing that led to a victory, and that was "Economy of Actions". The bad guy could kick out butts one on one, but it did not matter if his skill was 500% because he is still limited to so many actions per round. He may take down several PCs, but then the rest would overwhelm him.

Yes, there are only so many times you can parry several attackers. Certainly in RQ3 you had to split your skill N-ways to parry N people, so ganging up really helped. 

Anti-Parry also helps, by reducing the NPC's skill, so that Parrying gets harder, especially with RQG's subsequent parries at -30.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

My group played RQ3 steadily for two or three years and intermittently throughout the '80's. Skills started much lower than they do in RQG and even during our steady years, I don't think I saw anyone advance a skill much past 120-130% naturally using skill checks. Once you get to 100%, the odds of increase were so low that plenty of skill advancement rolls just failed.

We did. maybe we were lucky with rolls, or had more scenarios. We tended to have one-session scenarios rather than scenarios that went on for multiple sessions.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

What do characters who can beat these creatures look like? How do the rules produce them? I'm looking for responses from people who have produced these characters using the game's rules in play.

See above, Soltak Stormspear's Stats.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I also own and admire Secrets of Heroquest, but it doesn't have the sort of information I'm looking for. 😉

Thanks.

Special Abilities can be a real game-changer. So, Brankist Farlow gained an ability to double skills chances against Broos once per day, by defeating a Broo Hero. He also gained the ability to double damage against Broos once per day, on a different HeroQuest. He used both those abilities against the Son of Thed and cut its head off, by scoring a Critical, as he was attacking at 500% he had a 25% chance of criticalling, and double-doubling damage.

They HeroQuested for specific items or powers to destroy specific creatures. So, they gained the Stone to Kill Chaos to kill Heidi, learned how to restore the Mistress of Light, Guardian of the Fires of Heaven, back from a Vampire to an Angel and so on.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I'm familiar with the concept of the "action economy," but it's a little underwhelming as an answer. With the greatest good humor, it reads like this to me:

• "How did the PCs beat this monster?"
• "The GM played the monster badly."

Oh, I never played the NPC badly, I can assure you of that. The PLs knew that they had been in very dangerous fights.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

How many PCs is "several'? Even that's helpful, particular information. As a GM, am I expected to understand that only groups with 8 PCs have a chance against a particular monster because 6 will die guaranteed over the first four rounds? Besides, lots of the write-ups of Personalities in Secrets of Dorastor mention allied spirits, fetches, damage immunities, special Rune magic, or retinues that make it unlikely that it's just one monster against a group of PCs. The stats for The Mistress of Light on pg. 87 of Secrets says that the Mistress exudes a shimmering glow that subtracts 200% from opponents attacks. 200%! So my PCs need to have some sort of magic or gear that gives them at least +200% to even get them back on level ground! 

We had four major PCs in the RQ3 Campaign and one secondary PC who was a Sorcerer.

Each of the major PCs had skill levels between 150%-300%.

Having 4 of those ganging up on you, tooled up with big Bludgeon/Bladesharp and so on was very effective. Derak attacked at SR1 with his Troll Maul and always came in first if there was a SR tie, due to a special ability. With Bludgeon and Crush, he was attacking at between 400-500%, I can't remember exactly how much. So, he would be parried first. Then Solarus Skywatch hit with a Long Spear on SR3, I think, then Brankist Farlow on SR4 and Rilldick Fairplain on about SR4 as well. All were about 200% tooled up. So, to parry all four, the NPC had to split their parry 4 ways, so needed a Parry of 400% to be sure of doing that. Ignoring one of them generally meant a short combat.

19 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Has anyone fought The Mistress of Light?

Yes, the PCs fought her once and then backed off almost immediately. Soarus Skywatch then sold his soul to her, offering to marry her and make her his queen. He also said that they could make her into a non-Vampire, as Derak had previously turned Uzarl, a Mistress race Troll Vampire, back into a Mistress Race Troll, so they knew how to do it. As she hated being a Vampire, she agreed and left the Tower of Lead. So, there are more ways to defeat opponents than combat.

 

19 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

What rules did they use to counteract that massive penalty?

Close your eyes and use Darksense?

Seriously, if you don't know how to fight her, you shouldn't be fighting her.

18 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

note that if I remember well @soltakss used some heroquesting house rules helping you to raise your skill a lot (+xd6 % things like that after 1 heroquest)

 

but that is house rules. I cannot imagine, on my table, just a group of pc fighting the soltakss pc or opponents.

we have two different ways of play

Which is fair enough. I have played in a High Level campaign for many years and have enjoyed myself immensely.

It doesn't suit everyone, though.

18 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so three options (I would use the first, and maybe once the last, but not the second) :

- reduce the stats to have dangerous opponents but not impossible opponents

- use soltakss heroquesting rules (but that means your pc would probably not be able to follow official scenarios - too easy - except if you  raise the stats to have dangerous opponents and not too weak opponents)

- tell your pc there is always another way (of course explain them that the people they will fight are too strong for standard human), and maybe you will have the surprise to see them able to succeed, but not with a "standard"  fight. And if not, maybe it was just a dream or some external hq and your players were defeated only in dreams or god time but not dead once awake

All good points.

18 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Look, your average PCs will go up against her and die. The players need to have their own special abilities, magic items, allied spirits, etc. Taking on a hero is a job for a hero.

Exactly.

Joe Bloggs, straight from the Fyrd has no chance against these, unless he Criticals and they Fumble, even then he might struggle.

18 hours ago, Godlearner said:

You are also assuming that the enemy is always prepared and is able to use everything they have. That is not the case. They can be surprised, outwitted, distracted PCs can may search and find their weakness, or something that strips certain abilities. This is a Boss  fight and needs to be approached as one.

Exactly.

Although Boss Fights are out of flavour, these were often Boss Fights.

Not always, though, Heidi was an amusing Random Encounter, as she popped her heads out of a pond, spat acid venom at the party, destroyed some of their armour and disappeared again. She resurfaced, only to be hot by an awesomely powerful volley of missile fire that cut off all her heads, so she sank beneath the pond. She then reappeared with twice the number of heads and spat even more acidic venom at them. I laughed and laughed. In fact, I used to laugh a lot as a GM in the Dorastor Campaign.

17 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

All fair enough, but these NPCs and opponents (not just in Secrets) are presented in the same format as bandits to be dispatched in the Rubble. It suggests that I should be able to use those stats as they're found, just as I would for bandits my PCs find in the Rubble. But I see stuff like "-200% to all PC attacks" and it doesn't seem like I'm meant to take that seriously in the same way that I'm supposed to accept that a Rubble bandit has Bladesharp 3.

I use their stats as written.

If the PCs cannot take them down they shouldn't be fighting them.

If they meet them as a random encounter, the PCs don't have to fight them. They can talk to them, side with them, run away from them and so on. We had a very political game, with the PCs siding with various Personalities against other Personalities.

17 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I agree with all of that. So tell me about the special abilities, magic items, and allied spirits that you've seen used to defeat foes even close to the level of these NPCs. How do the players actually use the rules of the game, round by round, to win this sort of fight? Don't describe it in the abstract. "Boss monsters can be surprised, outwitted, distracted, PCs can search and find their weaknesses, or something that strips certain abilities" is a statement that can be made about any game. I could write that about D&D, Rolemaster, Cyberpunk 2020, GURPS, you name it. 

That game ran in the mid-80s to the late-90s. There is no way that I can remember a blow-by-blow account of tall their battles.

Basically, they went into combat, hit the NPCs often enough and hard enough that they fell over and died.

Sometimes they uses spells like Seal Wound, to stop the NPCs from Healing.

Quite often they go the first blows in, or Teleported to attack with surprise.

They used spells such as Counter Chaos to ignore some chaotic features.

As they were in different cults, they were quite versatile. 

They had also gained special abilities and powers through HeroQuesting.

17 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Tell me how to beat these opponents using RuneQuest's rules, dice, and numbers. 

You cast lots of magic and then attack with high skills and doing high damage.

It isn't rocket science.

17 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

How many rounds did you have to prep your magic?

Probably two or three rounds.

17 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

What spells did you cast during that prep?

Protection, Shield, Bladesharp/Bludgeon, Truesword/Crush.

Don't forget that allied spirits can cast magic as well, as could some bound spirits in RQ3.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

What were your allied spirits doing during a combat round while your character did their thing?

Casting Healing, casting offensive magic such as Fear, casting spells such as Teleport, using Multispell.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Was the battle only won with a critical hit?

Sometimes, but not always.

Brankist Farlow defeated the Son of Thed twice with Critical Hits.

Derak the Dark troll did a Critical Impale on Heidi and just kept pushing it in and wiggling it about, using Seal Wound to stop it  healing.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

How many times did Rune Lords invoke Divine Intervention to return to the battle?

Fairly often, but they were all Rune Lord-Priests.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Has nobody ever actually fought these opponents using the rules of the game?

Yes, all the RQ3 fights used the rules of the game. Sure, we also used Critical Impales and Hyper Criticals to do extra damage on really good hits with really high skills, but apart from that it used the normal RQ3 rules.

Why is this so difficult to believe?

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Why can't anyone give me some sort of "battle report" describing how one of these fights goes?

Because we finished playing in 1995 or 1996, more than 25 years ago. Can you remember battles in detail from 25 years ago? If so, you are a far better person than I am.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

It's fine if the answer is, "We've never done it by the rules," or "We make up a bunch of house rules and handwave some stuff." But that should be made clear when presenting these high-level monsters. There should be a sidebar explaining to the GM that these stats are theoretical somehow or that they aren't really meant to be used in play. 

We used the RQ3 rules.

It's as simple as that.

None of the Monsters presented in Secrets of Dorastor are particularly more powerful than those presented in Dorastor Land or Doom or Lords of Terror. In fact, half the Dorastor Campaign happened before Dorastor Land of Doom came out.

Nothing in Secrets of Dorastor is hypothetical or needs soemthing special to defeat them.

All are meant to be used in play.

18 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

If someone has done it fair-and-square using published rules, I'm quite keen to know how it's done.

Hopefully, the above helps.

If not, all I can suggest it to time-travel to our games at Warwick University and afterwards in Coventry and watch the games.

17 hours ago, svensson said:

Three things...

Luck, Rune Points, and Heroquesting.

Yes, in RQG, those would be the case. In our RQ2/RQ3 game, we had an awful lot of Rune Magic.

 

17 hours ago, svensson said:

Good Lord, Queen Leika isn't even a 'Hero-with-a-capital-H', and she's in the upper 5% of the human genome on sheer characteristics alone. The woman has no 'dump stat' like most PCs do. She has Heroquested for powers and skills, fought major opponents and survived, and has risen from defeat after defeat to stand as Queen of the Colymar. Most of her Tribal Ring is in the same category! And those people would have a seriously hard time going up against the likes of Brangbane the Ghoul King from the 'Pegasus Plateau' scenarios book. Take a look at the Gamemaster's Adventures book from the 'Gamemaster's Screen Pack'. Look at the incredibly high speed /low drag gear that the players are going to need to handle the dream dragon Yerezum Storn. That's the kind of gear PCs require to handle the big boys in RQ.

Agreed.

17 hours ago, svensson said:

RQG give us characters that are still mortals, who haven't reached the level of Heroes yet. And at that level, they're just not packing the gear to face off against major enemies like Mistress of Light.

Unless they appeal to her nature and defeat her that way, as Solarus did.

17 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

One thing of import... as you are playing RQ there is much less reason to kill all these tough beasties to defeat them.

That is really important.

Sometimes, just surviving counts as a victory.

Did you break an alliance between two Personalities? Did you ally with a Personality? Did you gain something you need by negotiating with a Personality? Then you won that encounter.

17 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

...fought, defeated and were killed ( I am positive, but this is what makes a hero different from you and I) and had to DI themselves back to go at it again. 

There is a difference between being Dead and Really Dead.

Divine Intervention was used a lot in that campaign.

17 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Actually, as much as I love Simon (sorry, did I use my outdoor voice... my bad... i meant “like", honest) he is not putting out RQG products. He is putting out great fan products for the Jonstown Compendium that use the RQG rules. 

...and I will let some else (perhaps Simon) answer those three great questions.

Love is fine. 

The Dorastor range uses RQG rules and is for Glorantha, so they are RQG supplements.

Sure, they aren't Chaosium products, except under the Chaosium Banner, but they are still RQG products.

17 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and a visit to the friendly local LM temple will be a good start in making those things kind of things happen.

Preparation and knowing your enemy is key.

17 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

A fair question, @soltakssand @Godlearner maybe this gourmand game master deserves an example. He has been asking!

Hopefully, I have supplied some examples.

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If your group is playing SuperRuneQuest variants like Simon’s, with loads of “heroquest rewards” to escalate adventurers’ capabilities, you can certainly power up enough to go toe-to-toe with those grossly-statted monsters, defeat Harrek, and so on. The problem is, you’re not really playing RuneQuest the way the rest of us do at that point, and anything Chaosium brings out won’t easily work in your games. That’s kinda why many of us have moved past that model. But if you and your GM like “levelling up,” there’s nothing wrong with that, and you can treat those gross stats as a challenge, rather than a warning.

My HeroQuesting stuff was based on correspondence with Greg Stafford and Steve Perrin, though Sandy might have answered a few queries.

Things that they mentioned as normal HeroQuest opponents were a Dragon with Infinite Armour Points, and a Great Troll with Shield 20/Crush 30.

So, they were certainly in the ballpark of the creatures from Secrets of Dorastor.

They also said that skills and Characteristics should be divided by 10 on the God Plane. I thought that was too much, so divided by 5.

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Dorastor: Land of Doom for RQ3 had similarly gross monster statblocks: Sandy (Call of Cthulhu) Petersen likes writing them that way. The problem is that there wasn’t a campaign structured to let you toughen up enough to beat them. (There isn’t one in Call of Cthulhu, either, which may explain why he wrote them that way: these are ancient terrors, not monsters to be defeated in attritional melee rounds).

But people play RuneQuest with different expectations. Work out where you’re happiest, and play it that way.

Exactly.

A lot of people are very sneery and dismissive of Super RuneQuest. We played using high-level RuneQuest for very many years, with two campaigns lasting well over 10 years each, and enjoyed every minute of them.

10 hours ago, svensson said:

There are many stories in military history of normal men doing incredible things. The problem is the casualty count among them! VERY few PC's are willing to look around the table and play the 'OK which one of you buys it' game.

After all, Leonidas didn't live to bask in his glory and Themistocles was exiled. Cuz, 'thank you for your service'....

There is nothing wrong with going out in a blaze of glory.

10 hours ago, svensson said:

Reinforcing @Nick Brooke's point, there are some opponents that have stats to deter players from going toe-to-toe with them. Player characters need to know when something is simply above their pay grade. Even Lady Nameless of the Colymar and Sarostip Prince-Killer of Jonstown, as badass a  pair of Swords of Humakt as you're ever likely to meet, say 'yes, ma'am' in real respectful tones when Jar-Eel comes to call.

Yes, you do not have to defeat all the monsters in Secrets of Dorastor to win.

Surviving is winning.

Making a name for yourself is winning.

Curing the Great Tree of Hellwood of Chaos is winning.

10 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

Unless they have 'Hate Lunars' above 80% of course, and the GM forces them to attack...

Sure, GMs can always be a dick.

I was more interested in a Campaign in Dorastor.

9 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Then you need a better GM. Luckily this campaign just ended, so it’s time to shop around.

Agreed.

8 hours ago, JRE said:

How I would do it, if I needed to, though we never had the need. 

This is not a chance encounter, it must be something deliberate. The Gloranthan solution of course involves heroquests. The players must research or improvise them, depending on the game's style. I would require at least three, one to weaken the monster, one to turn a character into a temporary monster killer, and a third one to make sure the monster will be when and where you want it. Depending on the monster a fourth one to make it stay in hell or wherever you sent it would be necessary after you send it there.

After the quests you still need to do the deed in Time, which would require the other characters and usually a host of cannon fodder to take the primed character to the monster and use whatever power I gave them (all hits are  criticals, or ignore its armor, or immunity to its magic... it would depend on the monster, but also on the shared design quest). Who will be the hero has to be decided before even the quests start, so the character still needs to do her part well, and probably roll well, or have some people sacrifice themselves to hava another roll. The kind of show where several Divine Interventions will be planned in advance, and some characters need a year to recover magic and POW.

Jar Eel probably would do it in the same way, but she can set up the quests in three weeks rather than three seasons and the Sacred Time. Harrek would just go, and the smart monsters would not be there when he arrives, so he is good for the dumb ones.

Or you could convince someone and send a three mile long iron bolt, or a chunk of the moon, or the mother of all Sunspears. But you still need to make sure the monster is there, and that it is not coming back... Not all violence needs to be yours.

Exactly, preparation can be the key.

8 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

I have to say, I read Secrets of Dorastor and was boggled at how tough these creatures were and I couldn't imagine how these creatures had been defeated by any possible RQ2/3 character in the campaign.

Believe me, they were.

8 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

But isn't this a bit more relevant to mainline campaigns than might be thought. Don't the Lunar bring Cwim to one of the battles in Prax? And down the track in the Hero Wars, Dorastor level opponents appear from my reading of it and of course Harrek, Sheng and Jar-Eel are at that level too, so won't there be some Super RQG in our campaign's futures?

It depends on how these things go.

Apart from the Terrors in the Bestiary, we don't have any examples of Heroes in official Chaosium supplements. I, for one, would love to see how they are written up.

7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

"How did Jack get to be as big and strong as all those Giants he killed?"

"How did Bilbo Baggins, a hobbit, get to be more powerful than Smaug, an ancient red dragon?"

If those look like sensible questions to you, you'll probably enjoy SuperRuneQuest.

You can always kill dangerous creatures with a Critical Hit, or through trickery.

Again, no need to be sneery about other people's playing styles.

6 hours ago, svensson said:

Quick answer: THEY DIDN'T.

Bilbo knew good and Eru-be-damned well that if he tried to face off with Smaug, he'd be a rat-kabob.

Jack talked too much and found himself at the deep end of the pool before he knew how to float.

They got lucky, but killed things according to the rules.

David and Goliath is another good example, a Critical Impale with a Speedarted sling, doing 23 points of damage to Goliath's head. Easy-peasy.

6 hours ago, svensson said:

We need to accept two things as RQ players:

a] Our characters are not central to the story of the Hero Wars and the defeat of the Red Goddess. Those roles are reserved for Argrath, Jar-Eel, Harrek the Berserk, and the Red Emperor. Our characters, if they are tough, smart, and lucky, will be the equivalent of Merry and Pippin in LOTR... amusing little fellows that have a couple of sideshow scenes and that's about it.

No, no, no, no!

Not in my games.

In my ghames, the PCs can become Argrath and perform his deeds. 

In my RQ2/3 Campaign, the PCs killed Argrath, as he was seen by Brankist Farlow as a rival to him becoming King of Sartar. They killed Harrek because he was Argrath's mate.

In my last RQ Campaign, the PCs did all the things that Argrath did, albeit unintentionally. They found the White Bull Spirit and became cultists, then spread it amongst the Praxians and Pentians. They performed a fertility ritual that allowed the Giants to produce a baby, then sailed the Cradle down into the Underworlds. They summoned a True Dragon at the Dragonrise. In fact, there was a scene where they needed Argrath's help and went to look for him, finding him in a tavern where he was burbling "You know, I could have been somebody if it hadn't been for those blasted River Voices".

6 hours ago, svensson said:

b] We are never going to be tough enough to square off against the likes of Cragspider. Your character is not, and never will be that bad ass. Your entire party would get its ass handed to it by the 'upper middle-weight' division of RQ opponents, like K'Rana the Humakti Scorpion Queen or Mistress the Last.

Why not?

I have grave doubts when someone says "You can never be as powerful as someone", my first thought is Why Not?

I can HeroQuest, gain powers, become a Hero and so on.

After all, Arkat, Sir Ethilrist, all of the Seven Mothers, Harrek, Argrath, Jar-Eel and all the other did it, so why can't I do it?

6 hours ago, svensson said:

When I talk about RQ to d20 players, I tell them that no matter how good or how experienced they are their character ALWAYS has a minimum 5% of getting killed out right by a 'goblin'... A trollkin gets an Impale result with his short spear and hits you in the head [2d6+1d4 damage x 0.75 = 11 pts. of damage vs the average 5 pts. of head armor and 5 pts. of head HP]. In RuneQuest, you don't get 'warm up fights', you treat each fight like it may be your last because it is. Players need to understand that the way the story and mythology of RQ is written, you will never be Elminster or Mordenkainen. Ever.

The difference is, powerful PCs can come back from those things. A PC with an allied Spirit can have Heal Wound or Heal Body cast to heal them from a mortal blow. Divine Intervention can bring you back. You could have higher Hit Points, or tougher hit locations.

 

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is my glorantha (or an aspect of my glorantha) too 🙂

 

But I would accept other players/GMs would see the thing differently and would like to defeat the red emperor, harreck or why not the invisible god. After all our glorantha may vary

Different people have different styles of play.

None are right and none are wrong.

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is not my pleasure to have pc able to kill all the colymar court in few rounds, for sure. Except when the campain is dedicated to pc living in underworld/godtime/etc

The people who go toe-to-toe against Heroes or the monsters from Secrets of Dorastor would probably have little interest in the Colymar court. It is too insignificant for them.

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the issue with jonstown publications is "if your pc are qualified to this scenario, they may be too powerful for this one or too week for this one. If your pcs follow this house rule, they may be absolutly unbalanced for the chaosium publications, etc....)

As a writer for Jonstown Compendium, I have no interest in making sure that my scenarios of NPCs are balanced with those of other authors, or with other scenarios published in the Jonstown Compendium. Similarly, I don't expect anyone to look at Secrets of Dorastor and say "Oh, I must make sure that the Broo Son of Thed ruler of Than Ulbar is of the same power level as the monsters from Secrets of Dorastor.

Each of the Jonstown Compendium supplements should be treated as standalone supplements.

GMs should be able to mix and match them to fit into their campaigns.

If they can't, then that is their failing as a GM, not my failing as an author.

2 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Ralzakark who may be the most powerful being in Dorastor was killed by the human Uroxi Oddi from Talastar. I wonder how powerful Oddi is. 

Exactly.

Also, Hahlgrim killed the Vampire Queen from the Tower of Lead.

Both were normal humans.

1 hour ago, EpicureanDM said:

If the consensus is that we're talking about "stunt stats," that's fine. It strikes me as a bit silly, like someone publishing that a D&D monster has AC 500 and immunity to all spells. Even the Bestiary's authors can't resist the temptation, but they at least call out the fact that they're goofing off.

We are not talking stunt stas.

Sure, you had not seen my reply then, but you keep repeating this assertion.

These were all NPCs that the PCs in my campaigns fought and defeated.

1 hour ago, EpicureanDM said:

I still think it's weird that no one seems capable of talking about RuneQuest's power curve in terms of actual play using the rules. I can read a few pages in Rune Masters - a book that's almost 40 years old - about what high-level combat is like, but can't find any modern players who can describe having done it themselves. People seem to know what a high-level stat block looks like, but no one ever talks about using them in play. It's all vague references and allusions to Gloranthan battles and history that I'm told I should ignore when I ask how I can create those moments in my RuneQuest game.

I had not seen your post until today, so could not have replied.

Hopefully, I have provided you with some examples.

50 minutes ago, JRE said:

f I remember right, Ralzakark was killed by Oddi with the Ironbreaker Sword of the Bilini, that you can order to kill anyone, but that will also cost you your life. Ralzakark came back. Oddi did not.

Not the first time. The first time, Oddi killed Ralzakark using Ironbreaker as a normal sword.

The second time, certainly, he killed Ralzakark with Ironbreaker's You Die, I die, ability, to make sure that he stayed dead.

52 minutes ago, JRE said:

Getting such a weapon would be an example of heroquest. You can have mundane or mythical heroquests, but achieving them is the mark of a hero. 

Yes.

In Oddi's case, he was given it by Hahlgrim, who was given it by Bolthor, who had inherited it from a line stretching back to the king who first gained it.

24 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I don't want to put words into your mouth, @EpicureanDM, but are you asking us "How could you defeat these monsters without making it an interesting story or making use of Glorantha's history and mythology in any way?" Because the answer to that, obviously, is "You can't."

Sure, it is an interesting story and can use Glorantha's myths.

25 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

There are epic scenarios on the Jonstown Compendium that show you how to bring absurdly powerful creatures into consequential RuneQuest play. Check out Drew's Company of the Dragon, or my own Black Spear. But they aren't about going toe-to-toe with kaiju, or arm-wrestling King Kong into submission, because that'd be silly.

Would it?

I beg to differ.

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Apologies for the long post and for quoting everyone.

23 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

And this is why I love that guy (actually volunteered to do the editing for his early JC work for free as a payback for what he has given the Gloranthan community for decades, and started to do it, when pressures of a failed podcast...well, never mind)!

Edited April 2, 2022 by Bill the barbarian