Using the rules of the game, how are PCs expected to defeat "high-level" opponents?

[EpicureanDM]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I don't want to put words into your mouth, @EpicureanDM, but are you asking us "How could you defeat these monsters without making it an interesting story or making use of Glorantha's history and mythology in any way?" Because the answer to that, obviously, is "You can't."

There are epic scenarios on the Jonstown Compendium that show you how to bring absurdly powerful creatures into consequential RuneQuest play. Check out Drew's Company of the Dragon, or my own Black Spear. But they aren't about going toe-to-toe with kaiju, or arm-wrestling King Kong into submission, because that'd be silly.

That's not what I meant, but I appreciate the forbearance as I try to express myself the right way. 😉

I didn't use example foes from Secrets of Dorastor because I expect or want to run battles using RQ's rules with those foes. Whenever I see monster stats in an RPG, I expect that they are designed with the understanding that the players can use the game's rules to defeat them. What would be the point of defining them using the game's rules if the game's rules aren't meant to be applied to them? Acknowledging that Secrets of Dorastor isn't an official Chaosium product, I couldn't figure out how the rules of RQG (or RQ2/3) would produce characters that could defeat those foes. But it's not really the production of sufficiently powerful RQ characters that I'm confused about. It's how they're played, round-by-round at the table, using all of their gear and magic, that I can't seem to find. 

I've tried to think about some concrete example that I could point to as what I'm looking for. For now, it's something like this. I'd love to read an Example of Play in the style of the small, green-text examples found the combat chapter that describes a battle between, say, four experienced Rune Lords (complete with allied spirits, magic storage crystals, iron armor and weapons, all the trimmings) against four opponents of comparable skill and equipment. I don't care about whether one side has a massive advantage via stealth or ambush. I don't care if one side gets a bonus because they're fighting on Orlanth's High Holy Day. Set it up however you like.

What I'm curious to see, I suppose, is someone being able to demonstrate what mastery of RQ's rules looks like. Bring every piece of mechanical weight and cleverness to bear to showcase what a battle looks like when both sides squeeze every advantage from the rules. And show me what it looks like at the same granular level as we see in the green-text examples in RQG's Combat chapter: SR by SR; Rune point by Rune point; roll by roll.

Powerful RQ characters have all of these rules and systems built into them. Can no one take them for a spin and show them off?

EDIT: I don't mean to suggest that anyone somehow owes me what I'm trying to find. I've spent a fair amount of time since RQG's release trying to find people who can speak about high-level RQ play and they remain elusive. This is probably the last time I'll pursue this topic.

EDIT, PART TWO: It sometimes feels like sometimes RQG's showing me 18th level characters (in D&D terms), but everyone's playing RQG at "5th level." So when I ask how to play these 18th level characters, no one can tell me how because no one does it. But they're in the books...

Edited April 2, 2022 by EpicureanDM

[EpicureanDM]

I will reply to you as well, @soltakss, but I want to do it properly in consideration of your generosity and patience in replying to me as you did.

[Akhôrahil]

I believe every single one of the PCs in my campaign picked up Mobility, arguing that being able to run away fast counts for a lot near Dorastor.

RQ also isn’t the kind of game where opponents are expected to be balanced and defeatable. If something seems too tough, hopefully your GM isn’t forcing that fight. Extreme monster stats serve to show that some things are really hard to fight (this is true already of the Crimson Bat in the Bestiary, which is a lightweight compared to some Chaos terrors).

[Bill the barbarian]

16 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

I will reply to you as well, @soltakss, but I want to do it properly in consideration of your generosity and patience in replying to me as you did.

You making a great choice in seeking out these two for their opinions (Nick and Simon) based on what you want to know.

1. They differ in opinion (this is great for making decisions)!
2. They both excel in Glorantha and RQ knowledge and lore (and have for decades).

I have my preferences but, you seem smart, so take a look twixt these two and make your own choices for the win and for your table's best experience!

Edited April 2, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Godlearner]

22 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

EDIT, PART TWO: It sometimes feels like sometimes RQG's showing me 18th level characters (in D&D terms), but everyone's playing RQG at "5th level." So when I ask how to play these 18th level characters, no one can tell me how because no one does it. But they're in the books...

Yes, these creatures are not meant to be faced in everyday play, but how do you describe an area without describing the powers that live and rule them. These characters lived alongside gods and demigods. You cannot expect a party of 5th level to take them on, but that same party can face their minions, erode their support, learn their secrets and find their weakness, and once they are 12th level they have a good shot at winning.

[Akhôrahil]

50 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

What I'm curious to see, I suppose, is someone being able to demonstrate what mastery of RQ's rules looks like. Bring every piece of mechanical weight and cleverness to bear to showcase what a battle looks like when both sides squeeze every advantage from the rules. And show me what it looks like at the same granular level as we see in the green-text examples in RQG's Combat chapter: SR by SR; Rune point by Rune point; roll by roll.

One interesting thing is that players (mine, at least, old war gamers as several are…) often manage to wring a lot more effectiveness than you might think out of even fairly new characters. I had to houserule a POW vs. POW for Thunderbolt, because any two Thunderbolts will take out essentially any humanoid opponent, and once two PCs have say six Rune Points each in Orlanth, they can almost instantly take out a full enemy party as long as there’s an overcast sky. Similarly, maxed-out Shields and Weapon Trances are very powerful.

Even the humble Javelin + Atlatl + Multimissile makes for a devastating attack on most creatures (not counting Dorastor baddies).

Edited April 2, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[EpicureanDM]

16 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yes, these creatures are not meant to be faced in everyday play, but how do you describe an area without describing the powers that live and rule them. These characters lived alongside gods and demigods. You cannot expect a party of 5th level to take them on, but that same party can face their minions, erode their support, learn their secrets and find their weakness, and once they are 12th level they have a good shot at winning.

For the sake of clarity, I'd point to NPCs like Leika Black Spear in Gamemaster Pack Adventure Book or Jardarin the Sun Lord from Pegasus Plateau as being "18th level." I know that "18th level" is vague and imprecise, but I'm trying to point to the more powerful stat blocks that everyone seems to think will count as "extremely powerful" within RQG's rules. What I don't want to get distracted by is these NPCs identities. Strip out all of their identity and personality so that Leika becomes High Priest of Orlanth and Wind Lord of Vinga #45 and Jardarin is Sun Lord #8. 

[Bill the barbarian]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even the humble Javelin + Atlatl + Multimissile makes for a devastating attack on most creatures (not counting Dorastor baddies).

Not so humble, I have said this many times but this combo rules the ranged Gloranthan battlefield. Big time! I am glad that Javelins are so expensive!

Edited April 2, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[EpicureanDM]

33 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

RQ also isn’t the kind of game where opponents are expected to be balanced and defeatable. If something seems too tough, hopefully your GM isn’t forcing that fight.

I don't care what the game expects or about balance per se in a particular GM's particular campaign. I want to see the full breadth and majesty of RuneQuest's rules expressed through high-level combat between matched foes. Show me how much fun it can be when players use RQ's rules in a back-and-forth battle of oneupmanship.

I feel like I keep repeating the same thing and it's not making sense to anyone. The problem must lie on my end somewhere.

[svensson]

Just now, EpicureanDM said:

I don't care what the game expects or about balance per se in a particular GM's particular campaign. I want to see the full breadth and majesty of RuneQuest's rules expressed through high-level combat between matched foes. Show me how much fun it can be when players use RQ's rules in a back-and-forth battle of oneupmanship.

I feel like I keep repeating the same thing and it's not making sense to anyone. The problem must lie on my end somewhere.

May I then suggest sending some of the Jonstown Tribal Ring NPCs from the 'Starter Set' up against Branbane the Ghoul King from 'Pegasus Plateau'?

These are fully defined NPC's with a compelling reason to want to eliminate a major threat in their tribal lands, so it would seem to be a natural. That ought to be all the majestic fun you can handle in one's evening's combat 😉

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, svensson said:

May I then suggest sending some of the Jonstown Tribal Ring NPCs from the 'Starter Set' up against Branbane the Ghoul King from 'Pegasus Plateau'?

These are fully defined NPC's with a compelling reason to want to eliminate a major threat in their tribal lands, so it would seem to be a natural. That ought to be all the majestic fun you can handle in one's evening's combat 😉

Agree, trying it out will give a lot better feel than reading about it.

Queen Leika from the GM box or Ironhoof from The Smoking Ruins packs quite a punch.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

30 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

feel like I keep repeating the same thing and it's not making sense to anyone

You are making perfect sense, and, IMO, the responses have been somewhat disappointing.

High level RQ, for better or worse (IMO, worse) often becomes a long battle of attrition of magic points and rune points.  The bad guy disables your leg, you (or a friend or ally) heal it.  They befuddle or demoralize a PC, you dismiss.  They put up Shield 4, you Dispell it, then they recast.  An unlucky crit  kills you, you D.I.  If the PCs go in loaded with MP storage, rune points, and potions, and outnumber the monsters, they might be able to grind them down over time.

Spells that ignore Countermagic or POW v POW are awesome, for both PCs and the GM.  Use them.  Some spells or monsters (Undines) attack CON or INT instead of POW.  Use them. 

Spells that benefit the whole party, like Morale, are great.  We often give our lead fighters a special heroic ability (not in the the rules, so not a real answer to your question) to boost the other fighters abilities, share spells, etc.

This slogfest is, IMO, a good reason to avoid "super runequest", and why I look forward to what @Nick and Chaosium come up with for their hero quest rules.

52 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I had to houserule a POW vs. POW for Thunderbolt

Agree, it's perhaps the 2nd most broken spell, after Lie.  

[Nick Brooke]

39 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This slogfest is, IMO, a good reason to avoid "super runequest", and why I look forward to what @Nick and Chaosium come up with for their hero quest rules.

You can see what I do: it’s in Black Spear. There are five or so heroquests in that story, depending who’s counting. A “magic road” (Act 2), a temple incursion (Act 4), a static power-up (Act 5), disrupting someone else’s ritual (Act 6), and getting lost on the hero plane (Act 7). All you need is a standard RQG character sheet, plus attitude. People telling you that you need new rules and stats and stuff aren’t trying.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Nick Brooke

[g33k]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Apologies for the long post and for quoting everyone ...

At least from my own POV -- no apologies needed; in fact, THANK YOU for taking the time to clearly quote/reply appropriately!

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, EpicureanDM said:

...

I feel like I keep repeating the same thing and it's not making sense to anyone. The problem must lie on my end somewhere.

I think what's missing is Hero-level official rules.
As the RQG "canonical" rules exist, we have no rules to go a-heroquesting, or come back with rare/special/unique/etc rewards.

It's worth noting that many rituals and initiations ARE heroquests; but those are core-mechanical elements (and reliable/repeatable) like initiating to your god, sac'ing POW, and getting Rune magic.

You are correct that ultra-powered foes like in Simon's Dorastor products are "next-level" and not really addressed in the RQG core rulebook; if you want to play against them, you probably need to have completed a bunch of heroquests... for which there are no official rules.  Other people have been HR'ing their HQ's and HQ-rewards; Simon's Dorastor is one example of that.

Edited April 2, 2022 by g33k

[Eff]

2 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I don't care what the game expects or about balance per se in a particular GM's particular campaign. I want to see the full breadth and majesty of RuneQuest's rules expressed through high-level combat between matched foes. Show me how much fun it can be when players use RQ's rules in a back-and-forth battle of oneupmanship.

I feel like I keep repeating the same thing and it's not making sense to anyone. The problem must lie on my end somewhere.

I think it doesn't end up being fun, because RQ's rules are built around fragile people taking serious risks in every battle, and making the numbers big sort of turns these battles into a game of Russian roulette where the live bullet is the first critical or special result.

I think making this kind of fight fun in RQ requires going outside the existing combat rules and into something that allows for a more dynamic back-and-forth than what Strike Ranks and Statements of Intent produce.

[Eff]

That being said, looking at Jardarin, one of the main limiting factors here is that even high-level characters don't do anything silly with spirit magic and Jardarin has no way to amp his melee attacks or defenses directly. No Bladesharp, no Protection, and no Shimmer. He has Firearrow, Multimissile, and Speedart, but the terms of the encounter make it unlikely they will come into play. He has 105%/95% with his weapon skills... but it's within reach of a starting PC to amplify themselves up to that point with their magic and starting skill %s. He does have full iron armor, but you're explicitly not going to fight him unless you make a specific decision to do so.

Leika similarly doesn't have any defensive magic besides Earth Shield and regular Shield. So I think that in terms of dealing with these foes (and Leika probably is meant to be beyond your PCs because she's an experienced heroquester and they're just Vasana Average) they probably should have no dynamic defenses, beyond possibly using Shield Rune Magic, giving PCs one technique for making these fights potentially interesting- PCs have survivability options (assuming you don't just have Leika Dispel Magic all their defenses away with her 78 MP- but again, Leika is an important setting NPC). And Leika tops out at 125% skill with her supernaturally empowered bow. Which is beyond a PC in a way that makes it magical but not hugely out of reach. Leika is just barely a person your PCs could see as a possible future.

[HreshtIronBorne]

On 4/1/2022 at 3:38 PM, EpicureanDM said:

So tell me about the special abilities, magic items, and allied spirits that you've seen used to defeat foes even close to the level of these NPCs. How do the players actually use the rules of the game, round by round, to win this sort of fight?

We played a game using the RQ3 rules that lasted about 2 and a half, maybe 3 years. It was pver a decade ago so I cannot be incredibly specific with the details. 

 

My character was basically Argrath. We were doing a whole Grand Argrath campaign. Started out as River Voices, from Borderlands, I think. Eventually freed the White Bull and sailed down in the Cradle. By that point my PC had 150ish base hit chance, fully buffed around 210 or so I think. He had just acquired the Wind Sword from Griffin Mountain, so had some badass Sylphs and a ton of MP to fuel himself and his allied spirit. I know at one point he had a Spell Enhancing 6 crystal thay would double any spell up to 6, so he was casting protection 12 and bladesharp 12 and so forth. 

At the end of the campaign when we were slaying Kaiju for fun and killed the Avatar of Cacodemon from Dorastor my PC had something like 450% Greatsword skill fully buffed. He had sacrificed for a ton of Teleport (his favorite spell) and Shield. We were playing with the ability to layer Chainmail and Iron Plates, dunno if that is RAW. So, my PC had full Iron which I think was something like 17 points of AP everywhere? That plus a Protection 12 and Shield 12 goes a LONG WAY to surviving against ridiculous enemies. The hardest part is the CHA limit on RP makes it hard to get to crazy levels of Rune Spells with a very seasoned adventurer in RQG as opposed to RQ3, although initiates can now ACTUALLY USE their spells so I will take it! I vividly remember cutting King Kong from Monster Island in half in a single hit, Greatsword + Bladesharp 12 + Truesword + Strength 12 + Strength of Basmol on 22 Str (Thanks Gosman) = a HELLUVA lot of damage. Approx. 4d8+12+4 or 5d6(I can't remember RQ3 DB chart) specialing on a 90 for 8d8 + 12 + 5d6 and critting on a 23 for 76 +5d6.

Most of our adventures came straight out of the books and we found most of our loot from them, some stuff we got was invented by the GM. He specifically gave us a Staff of Chalana Arroy early in the campaign with a Resurrection and a Heal Body as we really liked our PCs and didn't wanna reroll a lot (sue me, I was 16).

We had done a LOT of HeroQuesting throughout the campaign. At that time we were basing our acquired powers on Crits during HeroQuests so he had powers like Always Lands On His Feet because he survived an Impossible Jump/Fall on a Heroquest with a lucky crit. 

In my experience any campaign that runs long enough tends to get PCs that can push 200ish or more percent pretty easily if they have good stats and therefore category bonuses, even in RQG. The last RQG PC I played only 7 or so years of game time at one adventure per season mostly and had 150 or with Greatsword and a dozen or so RP and just had become a Sword of Humakt. He had just slain Brangbane after an epic adventure leading a small party. He was equipped with a mayrix he had sacrificed most of the POW for that the local Sword made for him with linked Strength + Coordination + Mobility and an MP Crystal which is a great buff spell! Our party also contained a Sorcerer capable of casting a +3d6 damage Boon of Kargan Tor for 8 weeks or so, so he maintained it on all of the party warriors. Simply gross on the Humakti! With an Iron Greatsword and armor he was really just getting started though, he would have nearly no way of tackling the stuff that Dorastor would throw at him without very clever tactics or a lot of running. I can definitely see ways you could gain the power to fight those enemies with the tools present in RQG though. An Orlanth Adventurous /Odayla initiate has access to some pretty freaking amazing spells and abilities. Orlanth mixed with almost any allied cult is awesome!

 

Very specific example of battle for the Humakti. Cast Shield 4 on self, cast Truesword on Sword, then Shield 1 on Sword (to precent dispelling for at least 1 swing). Cast Strength, mobility, and Coordination with the Matrix. Allied spirit casts bladesharp 6 on sword, Protection 6 on Self. Orlanthi casts Leap on Humakti. Humakti leaps over battlements and proceeds to destroy entire Lunar garrison, barely slowing until he hits the leader. They have an exciting duel. This is without Sword Trance as the Humakti needed to have presence of mind to get in and out. 

Our party had a lot of passive buffs as well, like Boon of Kargan Tor from the sorcerer which is a huge buff. For really big battles we knew were coming we would use the Humakti's Morale which does a LOT to buff the party for big deal battles. Combining Humakti Morale with am Ernaldan's Bless Champion, (with say Protection 6, Earth Shield, and Shield for example) can turn one guy into an absolute fucking BEAST for a whole adventure. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by HreshtIronBorne
Making a specific example for the thread.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@HreshtIronBorne Did nobody in the Lunar garrison cast Mindblast at the Humakti?  That's a great spell for GMs, or for PCs fighting awesome 400% Dorastor Chaos, because once it works it works: it can't be dispelled.  Just keep trying, with MP to punch through Shield, until you roll lucky on POW v POW.

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Acknowledging that Secrets of Dorastor isn't an official Chaosium product, I couldn't figure out how the rules of RQG (or RQ2/3) would produce characters that could defeat those foes. But it's not really the production of sufficiently powerful RQ characters that I'm confused about. It's how they're played, round-by-round at the table, using all of their gear and magic, that I can't seem to find. 

The PCs were produced using RQ2 rules and several years of play. We converted to RQ3 and used those rules for several years.

Playing a high-level PC is the same as playing a low-level PC.

However, some things need to be taken into account: 

• High Level Characters have more Runemagic, and probably multiple Rune Pools, which means they spend Rune Points more freely
• High Level Characters with Heroic Casting use their personal Magic Points to cast some, or all, Runespells, so spend them even more freely
• High Level Characters are often Rune Lords with D10 Divine Intervention, so can come back from the dead
• High Level Characters often have better Spirit Magic, with lots of bound spirits, so can cast larger variable spells
• RQ3 had things like Strengthening Enchantments, that could increase General and Locational Hit Points, making them harder to disable/kill in combat
• What is important to a Low Level Character could be unimportant to a High Level Character
• High Level Characters are likely to be involved in politics, the future of Kingdoms and the direction of cults
• Multispell with lots of stored Magic Points, is a game-changer

 

11 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I've tried to think about some concrete example that I could point to as what I'm looking for. For now, it's something like this. I'd love to read an Example of Play in the style of the small, green-text examples found the combat chapter that describes a battle between, say, four experienced Rune Lords (complete with allied spirits, magic storage crystals, iron armor and weapons, all the trimmings) against four opponents of comparable skill and equipment. I don't care about whether one side has a massive advantage via stealth or ambush. I don't care if one side gets a bonus because they're fighting on Orlanth's High Holy Day. Set it up however you like.

Unfortunately  the PCs from the Dorastor Campaign were from RQ2/3 and would need a fair amount of conversion to get them to RQG standards. The combats would probably work slightly differently as well. I don't have character sheets for any of the PCs in that campaign, as I was the GM, not a Player.

11 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

What I'm curious to see, I suppose, is someone being able to demonstrate what mastery of RQ's rules looks like. Bring every piece of mechanical weight and cleverness to bear to showcase what a battle looks like when both sides squeeze every advantage from the rules. And show me what it looks like at the same granular level as we see in the green-text examples in RQG's Combat chapter: SR by SR; Rune point by Rune point; roll by roll.

To be honest, the tactics are pretty much the same as you would see in any RQG game.

• First  round, your Allied Spirit casts Multispell 2, maybe, as you cast Shield on yourself.
• Second round, your Allied Spirit casts massive spells on you and your weapons, Protection 8, Bladesharp 8, Mobility. You cast Truesword on your sword.
• Third round, you might use Hate (Chaos) or Death Rune to give you a bonus to combat, then close for combat and your Allied Spirit casts Dispel Magic 8 three times, against your opponent's defensive magic.
• Fourth round, your Allied Spirit casts Demoralise 3 times, or Disruption 3 to shatter a limb.
• After that, you attack and parry, or attack and dodge, hoping to hit them and do enough damage to overcome their armour. Your Allied Spirit keeps healing and Dispel Magic in readiness, in case it is needed. Sometimes, your Allied Spirit casts Runemagic on friends or enemies, as needed.

 

11 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

EDIT: I don't mean to suggest that anyone somehow owes me what I'm trying to find. I've spent a fair amount of time since RQG's release trying to find people who can speak about high-level RQ play and they remain elusive. This is probably the last time I'll pursue this topic.

This thread is the first I have heard this, so apologies if you have asked elsewhere and I have missed it.

11 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

EDIT, PART TWO: It sometimes feels like sometimes RQG's showing me 18th level characters (in D&D terms), but everyone's playing RQG at "5th level." So when I ask how to play these 18th level characters, no one can tell me how because no one does it. But they're in the books...

You play them in much the same way as other PCs.

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

believe every single one of the PCs in my campaign picked up Mobility, arguing that being able to run away fast counts for a lot near Dorastor.

Good point. Winning can mean running away and hiding. If one PC doesn't have Mobility it's even better!

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

RQ also isn’t the kind of game where opponents are expected to be balanced and defeatable. If something seems too tough, hopefully your GM isn’t forcing that fight. Extreme monster stats serve to show that some things are really hard to fight (this is true already of the Crimson Bat in the Bestiary, which is a lightweight compared to some Chaos terrors).

Sometimes I'd force the fight. Heidi popping up and attacking the PCs is one example. 

However, I only do that for one of a few reasons:

1. It's funny
2. The NPC hates the PCs
3. There is a good reason for the NPC to attack
4. The NPC is a mindless, hungry beast

 

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even the humble Javelin + Atlatl + Multimissile makes for a devastating attack on most creatures (not counting Dorastor baddies).

Our RQ2 Players would use Multimissile barrages "to go for the crits", which is not a tactic I'd seen before, but was very effective, especially when multiple PCs targeted the same NPC.

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

You are making perfect sense, and, IMO, the responses have been somewhat disappointing.

Apologies that I have not been able to give round by round examples from a campaign that ended over 25 years ago, for which I do not have any character sheets.

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

High level RQ, for better or worse (IMO, worse) often becomes a long battle of attrition of magic points and rune points.  The bad guy disables your leg, you (or a friend or ally) heal it.  They befuddle or demoralize a PC, you dismiss.  They put up Shield 4, you Dispell it, then they recast.  An unlucky crit  kills you, you D.I.  If the PCs go in loaded with MP storage, rune points, and potions, and outnumber the monsters, they might be able to grind them down over time.

Spells that ignore Countermagic or POW v POW are awesome, for both PCs and the GM.  Use them.  Some spells or monsters (Undines) attack CON or INT instead of POW.  Use them. 

Spells that benefit the whole party, like Morale, are great.  We often give our lead fighters a special heroic ability (not in the the rules, so not a real answer to your question) to boost the other fighters abilities, share spells, etc.

All good points.

Many of the tactics from RuneMasters still work well.

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

You can see what I do: it’s in Black Spear. There are five or so heroquests in that story, depending who’s counting. A “magic road” (Act 2), a temple incursion (Act 4), a static power-up (Act 5), disrupting someone else’s ritual (Act 6), and getting lost on the hero plane (Act 7). All you need is a standard RQG character sheet, plus attitude. People telling you that you need new rules and stats and stuff aren’t trying.

I agree. Most of Secrets of HeroQuesting show how you can use your normal rules for HeroQuesting, or that was the intention, anyway.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

I think what's missing is Hero-level official rules.
As the RQG "canonical" rules exist, we have no rules to go a-heroquesting, or come back with rare/special/unique/etc rewards.

It's worth noting that many rituals and initiations ARE heroquests; but those are core-mechanical elements (and reliable/repeatable) like initiating to your god, sac'ing POW, and getting Rune magic.

I think we need to differentiate between HeroQuesting and High-Level Play.

What EpicureanDM is questioning is how High Level NPCs work in High-Level Play, not how HeroQuesting works.

Sure, some of the NPCs gained their abilities through HeroQuesting, but they don't use HeroQuesting in normal play.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

You are correct that ultra-powered foes like in Simon's Dorastor products are "next-level" and not really addressed in the RQG core rulebook; if you want to play against them, you probably need to have completed a bunch of heroquests... for which there are no official rules.  Other people have been HR'ing their HQ's and HQ-rewards; Simon's Dorastor is one example of that.

In theory, you can defeat any of them without having gone on a HeroQuest at all.

In practice, however, gaining special abilities makes things easier.

8 hours ago, Eff said:

I think it doesn't end up being fun, because RQ's rules are built around fragile people taking serious risks in every battle, and making the numbers big sort of turns these battles into a game of Russian roulette where the live bullet is the first critical or special result.

I think making this kind of fight fun in RQ requires going outside the existing combat rules and into something that allows for a more dynamic back-and-forth than what Strike Ranks and Statements of Intent produce.

Maybe., That is something that RQ6 tried to do, but, in my opinion, ended up over-complicating combat.

8 hours ago, Eff said:

That being said, looking at Jardarin, one of the main limiting factors here is that even high-level characters don't do anything silly with spirit magic and Jardarin has no way to amp his melee attacks or defenses directly. No Bladesharp, no Protection, and no Shimmer. He has Firearrow, Multimissile, and Speedart, but the terms of the encounter make it unlikely they will come into play. He has 105%/95% with his weapon skills... but it's within reach of a starting PC to amplify themselves up to that point with their magic and starting skill %s. He does have full iron armor, but you're explicitly not going to fight him unless you make a specific decision to do so.

Leika similarly doesn't have any defensive magic besides Earth Shield and regular Shield. So I think that in terms of dealing with these foes (and Leika probably is meant to be beyond your PCs because she's an experienced heroquester and they're just Vasana Average) they probably should have no dynamic defenses, beyond possibly using Shield Rune Magic, giving PCs one technique for making these fights potentially interesting- PCs have survivability options (assuming you don't just have Leika Dispel Magic all their defenses away with her 78 MP- but again, Leika is an important setting NPC). And Leika tops out at 125% skill with her supernaturally empowered bow. Which is beyond a PC in a way that makes it magical but not hugely out of reach. Leika is just barely a person your PCs could see as a possible future.

Thanks. I am under a GM embargo as to reading RQG scenarios, so I miss all of these stats.

6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

We played a game using the RQ3 rules that lasted about 2 and a half, maybe 3 years. It was pver a decade ago so I cannot be incredibly specific with the details. 

Excellent stuff, thanks.

Your campaign seems very similar in style to ours and shows that:

• High Level PCs are/were easily achievable
• HeroQuesting is important
• Monsters can be beaten with the right preparation and tactics
• I was not lying about what High Level Campaigns can be like

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by soltakss

[Bill the barbarian]

20 hours ago, soltakss said:

Multispell

For the win!

[HreshtIronBorne]

I did forget to mention that in my post but, Multispell is incredibly powerful for giving your PC or party the edge in terms of action economy and damage/utility throughput. Being able to launch Disrupt 3 for 3d3 or put protection X on half the party in a single round is a huge deal. 

 

An allied spirit with access to a buttload of MP, some solid spirit spells, and Multispell is a force multiplier to be feared! Not to mention God Tier spells like Heal Body. 

 

This also reminds me of how strong Full Shaman are in the RAW. Depending on how your GM rules on combining Multispell and the Shamanic Ability - Spell Barrage you can get truly RIDICULOUS levels of spell flinging. In our last campaign the Shaman was using Multispell 5 and had spell barrage 6, I think he was nuking 6 dudes at a time for 6d3 damage, which almost assuredly disables a hit location on most things. 

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

On 4/1/2022 at 8:03 PM, EpicureanDM said:

50 AP across each location, 30-HP averages across locations, weapon skills in the 300%+ range, damage ratings of 2D6 + 20

Ok, I see a lot of expernced players giving ideas, this is my take for hunting a beast like that. (I'll stay away from Trance, slash, and shield, we all know those are loved.

- Moral, having 50 archers with speeddart , 75% to hit and morale increases your critical output to 3d8+9 per round. 

- Teleport, if someone falls, get them out or stay away from attacks, they can't hit you if you are not there.

- Multispell and an allied spirit with multispell. Heal  and Disruption shine here, someone with 21 pow, a +4 attack gem and multispell 5 ruins anyone with pow bellow 30, heal 6 with a healing gem and multispell 5 is almost a heal body. 

- Most monsters have too much power but a shaman or spirits attacking in spirit combat are a wall usually unguarded, specially by unintelligent beasts. 

-  Tanks. Someone with eartshield, parry and good luck can keep an monster with the aggro spell I don't remember the name and let friends with slash, Trance, firespear do the work. 

- Multispell, a gem of x2 spiritual spells and fanatism/morale/arrow Trance and your chance to crit skyrockets.

I see this as one beast against a hero band, support priests, trade spells if needed, archers, Spearmen and the group, maybe 10 years in game, about 15-18 personal pool, Items, enchants and gems (about 60? Pow)

If you are going against a named monster (for 18 level) I expect you to have an above 15 level character. Bring support, bring scholars that tell you that she casts a shadow that leaves everyone blind and find out how much sunbright you need to revert it, does cateyes work? Or is a fear thing and we need Fearless? 

I like how that sounds as a campaign, I don't know if they had those monsters and "1d6 for each pc" maybe with another ruleset.

Thats my take! I really enjoyed this thread, keep it up!

[French Desperate WindChild]

there are a lot of intersting thinks, but I m somewhat taken aback (thanks linguee, I don't know if I use these words  on a right way) by the  skills%

 

let start with a new RQG characters. Jojo. his player like to optimize a little bit the character so Jojo starts his favoured skill at 100% with a skill bonus of 20%

Jojo is an average guy That means every time jojo rolls the skill's experience he has 21%  (rule of skill > 100% => add your bonus and reach 1000 with your roll)    to gain 1d6%.

I play that there are 6 experience rolls a year (5 seasons + sacred time).

 

After 1 Year, Jojo gains 6 (seasons) * 0.21 (xp check)  * 3.5 (xp average gain) => 4.41% (max +36%)

After 5 Year, Jojo's skill is at 122% (max 280%)

After 20 years, Jojo's skill is at 188% (max 820%)

After 40 years, Jojo's skill is at 276% (max 1540%). But Jojo is now 61 years old

Then it is possible to reach 300 or 400 with the rules, but you need to be lucky 🙂

That is a surprise for me I was thinking that 200% was a high limit but you just need 23 years to break my idea

 

then there are GM's appreciation :

how easy it is to obtain gear, matrix, crystal...

and what are the heroquest rewards (skill progression including) as there is nothing described (for the moment) in the official rule.

and of course what house rules are followed

so depending on GM choices a monster is "easy" or "near impossible" to kill.

Of course it depends too on the group composition (is there a shaman ? a teleport man ? A healer ? etc...) ;

how smart are the players to imagine a strategy

how smart is the monster (and the GM : if the monster is smart but the GM does not try to dispell anything, at the end the monster is not so smart, or was disturbed, or anything)

 

the last option is as described by @SevenSistersOfVinga : hire an army (well at least a company)

[icebrand]

Short Answer: you cant defeat these creatures under normal rules because they aren't generated with normal rules.

Long answer: creatures seem to come from an RQ3 campaign, where you can defeat them (sorta) after a (quite unrealistic for most groups) amount of experience.

My old party could probably tackle all these, but they have 15+ real life years of campaign experience (with hundreds if not thousands of XP and pow rolls) + a hefty amount of house rules (by the end I'm not sure we were still playing RQ, heck, we even converted to a d20 -pendragon like- the last few sessions, but i wasn't the GM by then). I was also exceedingly generous to such party -as in letting their characters live/resurrect-

Last but not least, the combat system is different.

In RQ3 something like a 100% skill zorak zorani with a great maul and some crush (or a babester gor with great parry+slash) will TRASH a 300%+ normal person with a sword, while in RQG the guy with the sword hits 95% of the time and gets hit less than 5% of the time.

Edited April 4, 2022 by icebrand