The line between Chaos and not Chaos

[Darius West]

On 5/4/2022 at 9:09 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Not sure that is in the correct thread but could you explain deeper ? I don’t see the difference (use words for a Frenchie without any philosophical background -or few-) 😝

Okay, the question is the difference between the Void and annihilation.

I draw your attention to Cults of Chaos page 11 (Cosmology)

"The Void unknowable, never knew.

The Mover touched and made touching, but never knew.

Silence woke, and wished up the world, and hoped to know.

Plasma sang and entered the world, and knew the world at last." 

The Void is one of the concepts of creation, formless beyond emptiness and indescribable.  Note there are 4 factors, and each is linked to a type of magic in Glorantha, with the Void being linked to the mystics.  You can go outside the Sky Dome, and hence "into the void" without being annihilated.  We might therefore consider the Void to be akin to the vacuum of space.  Annihilation what happens when a being is absorbed by chaotic monsters.  Allegedly they are consumed, body and spirit.  Now for a mystic, it may be that the states are somehow equivalent, but no other magical style can come back from annihilation.

[Rob Darvall]

On 4/28/2022 at 6:09 AM, Eff said:

Things that are both Chaotic and non-Chaotic:

-Cannibalism
-Reanimating the dead
-Devouring, annihilating, or in some way removing a soul from the normal cycle of life and death

The first 2 differentiate between chaos & not-chaos by ritual and godhead.

IMG the BG can eat the rapists' livers (vit. D poisoning not being a concern in Glorantha) in the temple ritual after she's been purified and consecrated* to undertake their elimination. If she does it as a private act there's a chance (and IMG a very high chance) that she'll attract the attention of Cacodemon. It's still horrific, and the table's reaction demonstrated its power, but it's held from being chaotic by the rituals and the god.
In play terms this stops horrific acts from becoming casual parts of the game. Casual cannibalism frex results in either a cacodemon attack or the PC going ogre. Either way the player is likely to lose their character. All my Waha players try to perform the Peaceful Cut over fallen enemies. It also makes the cults more immanent in play, not just RP fast chargers.

IMG eliminating souls is chaotic. I know of nothing (and stand to be corrected) that does this which is not chaotic.

* I must note that the consecration involved a long and complex make up session involving my BG player and her Ernaldan accomplice.

[Joerg]

On 4/27/2022 at 7:11 AM, Ironwall said:

What exactly is the line when is something cruelty and selfishness and when is something chaos. Is this even a line or is it a blurry image? Gargathi tortures people to create whirlveshes but they aren't chaos so when is something chaos?

Possibly when some heroquesting identity challenge imposes that identification on an opponent (or themselves). While I think that Arkat did embrace Chaos in his ultimate fight against Nysalor in the City of Miracles and had the Chaos credibility to curse the land, Talor only was tormented by Chaos in his sojourn to the Underworld through the Gate of Banir before his rescue by Harmast, but he still was able to impose the explicit chaos nature of the Telmori curse.

[DucksMustDie]

A ZZ Death Lord animates a skeleton, the skeleton obviously does not detect chaotic. What if a vampire does the same using Vivamort's magic ? Or a Thanatar priest using Thanatar's ?

[Bill the barbarian]

18 minutes ago, DucksMustDie said:

A ZZ Death Lord animates a skeleton, the skeleton obviously does not detect chaotic. What if a vampire does the same using Vivamort's magic ? Or a Thanatar priest using Thanatar's ?

reasonably sure undead are not inheritantly chaotic.

[DucksMustDie]

What about the source of the animating spell? It doesn't matter if the source is a Chaos god? One could argue if the enchantment is Chaos magic, it would detect as chaotic? 

Edited August 20, 2022 by DucksMustDie

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, DucksMustDie said:

A ZZ Death Lord animates a skeleton, the skeleton obviously does not detect chaotic. What if a vampire does the same using Vivamort's magic ? Or a Thanatar priest using Thanatar's ?

Not everything resulting from an act of a creature carrying a chaos taint needs to inherit that. Personally, I tend to think that almost half of the deities commonly summed up in the Chaos pantheon don't check out as Chaotic when subject to a series of Sense Chaos tests by a group of highly sensitive Storm Bull detectors.

Gark the Calm doesn't have any obvious obliteration of the soul. Malia, Seseine, Krarsht, and even Vivamort all have worshippers who aren't Chaotic yet, and the same can be said for cults like Ompalam or the Seven Mothers.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, DucksMustDie said:

What about the source of the animating spell? It doesn't matter if the source is a Chaos god? One could argue if the enchantment is Chaos magic, it would detect as chaotic? 

According to WF15, the magic used by Delecti to create hordes of zombies from recently slain dead was taken from Zorak Zoran, which makes it an Underworld magic where the Dead aren't supposed to sit still anyway. The horde of Nontraya or the escapees of Koravaka (the Esrolian Necropolis city in the middle of an artificial lake) are of this type, too. It took efforts of heroes like King Heort to separate the walking dead from the living and sending them to their resting places or realms before the Dawn.

There can be long-duration sorcery animating corpses, possibly outlasting the life expectancy of the dead body even with preservation methods and spells running, in which case the cost has been paid upon creation of the undead.

There can be enslavement of the ghost of the deceased, with the ghost being tapped into animating the body. Ghoul spirits work on a similar premise, but aren't the previous occupant of the corpse they inhabit.

The zombified companions of Vadel in their conflict with the shamanic entity are the result of severing the body from the souls/spirits of their previous inhabitants, who may have been captured and enslaved or destroyed by that shamanic force. Of course, the Vadeli got the idea, and used it themselves later on as one of their sorceries - luckily restricted to the Blue caste, it seems.

 

If you want Gloranthan thermodynamics, Mana or life force is something produced by living beings, but channeled into them by the Source, a well of energies at the uppermost of the Gloranthan cosmos, filtered down by the runes and the deities using those runes. That energy manifests as magic, and then goes down into the Underworld, where it ultimately dissipates into the Void outside of the Cosmos. Underworld magic may not use the Source directly, but use decay or similar forms of taking in ambient environment energies and sends these energies down to dissipate, creating enough of a potential difference so that the magic can flow, enabling things like tireless zombie rowers in Kralori war barges.

[DucksMustDie]

Thanks Joerg, I got the answers I was seeking 🙂

[Erol of Backford]

I am curious if anyone has played in a campaign where a character was so evil/bad they became chaotic by action alone, not eating something chaotic, not getting a chaotic feature just from being a bad person?

I don't recall reading about this or it happening in games I've played and so looking at this, the idea of illumination, realizing that chaos isn't good or evil directly (mind you chaotic beings tend to do what are considered evil things) nor isn't by nature evil?

If one doesn't become chaotic from being a very bad person, killing, raping, pillaging, they are pretty bad but its not seen that way/chaotic if its against any enemy even though the actions may be considered chaotic?

Wouldn't the actions be chaotic as they are outside common law?

Also could a creature not be chaotic-good versus chaotic-evil? Oh but any chaos is bad chaos is all chaos?

It may seem strange but what if say adventurers take an ogre baby from a young age and teach it to eat only herdmen as it grows and they have other races as members of their hero band. Would they have an unquenchable taste/hunger for killing and eating them?

If they are not driven by instinct to kill and eat their friends they are by nature chaotic but not evil?

What if a chaotic cult spell was used via an enchantment of some sort would the character using the spell become tainted with chaos?

Sorry for the rambling...

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If one doesn't become chaotic from being a very bad person, killing, raping, pillaging, they are pretty bad but its not seen that way/chaotic if its against any enemy even though the actions may be considered chaotic?

I think the basic dynamic is that if you are going to do those things, you had better be in a gang of similar people otherwise your life expectancy is going to be measured in weeks. 

For example, tusk riders generally not considered chaotic. Nevertheless, they are as bad as bad can be, doing all those things and more. They mostly get away with it by having a defensible base in the Stinking Forest that they only leave in large raiding parties. They have their own form of community and magic, and so have no need for explicit chaos worship.

Chaos, in the form of scorpion men and broo, is the only such gang that has absolutely no standards for recruitment.

For subtler forms of chaos, it is more that turning to chaos worship is the only prospect of getting away with what you did. If you eat human flesh, but don't want to be treated as an ogre, Cacodemon can teach you the secrets of how to escape detection.

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If one doesn't become chaotic from being a very bad person, killing, raping, pillaging, they are pretty bad but its not seen that way/chaotic if its against any enemy even though the actions may be considered chaotic?

there is a difference between chaos and evil

I may have some house chaotic rules, so to not confuse you, I will try to answer only about what I understand as canon :

- doing chaotic things transform you into chaotic creatures

eat human flesh and you will become an ogre (except when it is organized in some not chaotic worshipping rituals, maran gor,etc)

rape and you will become a broo (having sex with your wife or praxian concubines who doesn't want seems to not be chaotic (for me, no is no, even if you are married or slave... so it should be considered as a rape too))

"will become" is not instant, it may take time. And  you may face  other consequences. probably chaos will come in addition.

Spoiler

for example rape may summon succubus, things like that who affect all your community for example, there is a scenario like that in the sun county

- breaking some rules could summon chaotic things

that doesn't mean you will become a chaotic thing, just that now there is chaos around you. kinstrife, things like that

 

- what is evil depends on people: killing, pillage, ... that's not chaotic ! that's ok for orlanthi, lunar, praxian, ...

sometimes some cults (Uleria, Chalana, ...), honor and other rules ot lox will tell you that killing A is fine and killing B is evil, however. But that is not chaotic because it is evil. It is evil.

 

[house rule] what I think is chaos is summoned when people believe (consciously or not) that chaos will appear.

Illumination reduces this risk but not completly (you are a new you, yes, but there are remnants of your past), but at the end of the day you illuminate don't care if there is chaos or not, except if this new thing is a threat for you, as the villagers may be a threat for you.

 

Of course if chaos is already here, you can try to believe there is no chaos, that doesn't change the fact that chaos is here.

there are probably other way to "summon" chaos even when you are/were not yet chaotic. But it seems to me something to keep in mind, there is probably chaos if you think/fear there is chaos
[/house rule]

 

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

what if say adventurers take an ogre baby from a young age and teach it to eat only herdmen as it grows and they have other races as members of their hero band. Would they have an unquenchable taste/hunger for killing and eating them?

baby ogre is an ogre. there is instinct, there is hunger, there is chaos.

could baby now adult not hear his instinct ? yes until there is a crisis. In my opinion a lot of reason may trigger the "call of his true nature", no food of course, a big threat, a too big anger against him, ... or just blood smell...

and remember his "new parents" are not ogres: they are human, they smell human: they are preys, lovely preys perhaps, but preys.

 

Illumination may help him, still an ogre but less ... passionate.

or a heroquest to clean him : no more chaotic, no more an ogre (no more STR bonus too, if it is the question) just a human

Edited September 6, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Erol of Backford]

That helps and even recalls for me some scenarios we ran back in the 90's that had in them a good bit of what you described. Forgot about those instances!

Thank you.

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:09 PM, Eff said:

In conclusion, the line between that which is Chaos and that which isn't is perhaps very highly socially constructed- if you can construct a social order of cannibalism (Cannibal Cult), or reanimating zombies (Zorak Zoran), or of holding up the annihilation of souls as a natural phenomenon (draconism), you're not Chaotic, but if you're just an ogre or a vampire or a flayed bat, that's real rough, buddy. 

This is my interpretation as well. Note how often "Chaos" is just what the society is unable to handle. In Heortling society regular murder is fine (well, perhaps not "fine" exactly, but it's a civil offence and certainly not inherently Chaotic) while Secret Murder is Chaotic. It's not hard to connect this to how society is primed to handle open murder, but not secret murder. And Kinslaying is particularly bad (and presumably Chaotic) because Heortling society doesn't even have the conceptual framework to handle it in a way with just outcomes.

Cannibalism? Yeah, it's going to be really bad for a society if people start murdering each other for food when there's a famine (= Chaotic), but if you have a ritual framework around it, it doesn't have to be. Rape? Assault rape is widely considered (and not just considered - clearly is) Chaotic, but there's plenty of things we would consider rape (like marital rape, or sexually abusing your slaves) that evidently don't turn people into Broos (or I'm sure Dara Happa would be overrun by them...). The latter kinds don't threaten to upend society, so no Chaos there.

And sometimes even this measurement doesn't work. Why is hyperviolent and exceedingly anti-social Zorak Zoran making zombies non-Chaotic, while it's Chaotic when pro-social Gark the Calm does it in a controlled, consensual and regulated manner? Damned if I know - I don't have a better answer than "It's Chaos because it's Chaos that does it", and that's not exactly satisfying.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

IMG moral Chaos is the domain of Wakboth, and it is actually a breaking of the social contract. The social contract is relative and different in different cultures. Assault rape is probably socially accepted in cultures like the Uz, or most nomads (outside the Tribe), so no chaotic risk there, but it is among the orlanthi or the solars, so for them it can be a source of corruption. Similar with most things, from cannibalism to murder.

The Orlanthi have several escape routes so that antisocial elements can find a place that does not end in Chaos. Options like the Gagarthi break most orlanthi taboos, but as a recognized way, even if disliked and outlawed, it will not ened in chaos. Other cults and social structures offer ways to do forbidden things without the risk of corruption.

I would communicate to the players when they do something that really is "beyond the pale", and mechanistically assign some corruption points. Then it is their choice of what to do. Corruption from secret murder will not go away after joining Black Fang, but you will not get more.

We say it is a social construct, but anything that involves people in Glorantha involves magic, even unconscious magic, and it has teeth. That is why right living is so important for the Gloranthan cultures, because the risks and penalties are real.

Unless you are illuminated. Once everyone is us, morals will really become relative.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, JRE said:

Assault rape is probably socially accepted in cultures like the Uz,

As uz society is dominated by women, (and women pack more than one individual) I think the opposite. 

how fool would be a troll to try to touch someone with 6 sisters priestess 2 shamans and one sorcery mistress and of course 56 husbands and sons from the pack ?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

As uz society is dominated by women, (and women pack more than one individual) I think the opposite. 

Agree, but it is an example where cannibalism is completely accepted and even expected.

[Darius West]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

As uz society is dominated by women, (and women pack more than one individual) I think the opposite. 

how fool would be a troll to try to touch someone with 6 sisters priestess 2 shamans and one sorcery mistress and of course 56 husbands and sons from the pack ?

Troll society isn't dominated by women, it is dominated by female trolls.  There's a huge difference, and not just in SIZ stat.  

Remember that not every female in a troll clan is necessarily related to the upper hierarchy.  Many will be lesser females affected by the trollkin curse who can only birth trollkin, and thus has a pretty low status, as they are effectively a mother of many slaves.

While every clan will pull together in a time of crisis, some trolls inevitably are more disposable than others.

On the other hand, I think trolls hate Thed and Broos, and while their mating customs will be more brutal and stinky than human ones, just like everything that trolls do is more brutal and stinky than human customs, I don't think they are rapists either, it likely just seems that way to outsiders who fail to grasp the "nuances" of troll romance.  Males will likely need to display their strength to impress a female, and this may seem like force, but it actually just how trolls roll, and is part of the mating process.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Darius West

[JRE]

I was actually thinking of reverse rape, and also present in several arthropods when the female is larger, which also can be present among the Uz. Arachne Solara does that to Wakboth, after all. Assault him, rape him and devour him. I still think it is quite trollish.

As well, in his weak attempt to reverse Uz social order, I am sure ZZ would really rape females if he could, but he is at the end of the day the weakest of the Uz deities. Some of his devotees would try it, though that would bring retribution from KL. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Troll society isn't dominated by women, it is dominated by female trolls.  There's a huge difference, and not just in SIZ stat.  

for once, that is not my french accent but my decision to use "women". maybe too annoyed by some irl commentators about the international situation...

Yes I choose women for troll as I don't want to make a hierarchy between human (on the top) and troll (on the bottom) societies. They are different, they are not fine in my opinion (both) but they are both civilized (in they ways, adn many ways not only one human and one troll)

So yes we have women who lead Esrolia, and we have (dark)women who lead Troll societies (maybe not all by the way)  🙂

 

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Remember that not every female in a troll clan is necessarily related to the upper hierarchy.

that's true, and in this aspect it seems to me that it is the same relationship type (subordination) than not voluntary marriage (or not tonight I don't want), slavery, etc..

but you're right to point it

but in all cases :

35 minutes ago, JRE said:

I was actually thinking of reverse rape,

i did not understand it, apologies,

so you raise  an interesting question, more arachne or more thed is this activity ? I don't know

[Eff]

10 hours ago, JRE said:

I was actually thinking of reverse rape, and also present in several arthropods when the female is larger, which also can be present among the Uz. Arachne Solara does that to Wakboth, after all. Assault him, rape him and devour him. I still think it is quite trollish.

As well, in his weak attempt to reverse Uz social order, I am sure ZZ would really rape females if he could, but he is at the end of the day the weakest of the Uz deities. Some of his devotees would try it, though that would bring retribution from KL. 

I don't really see the connection between Arachne Solara and uz here, because, uh, Cragspider's contact with Arachne Solara is what gives her the transcendence necessary to command the Pillar of Fire. So even if we take it as granted that the encounter in the Great Net was sexual and non-consensual, I'm not sure of the chain of reasoning that goes from there to uz approving of rape. (Quite apart from asking why we would invent a culture that approves of rape given the existence and symbolism of broos in the setting.) 

[AlHazred]

"The Devil is the Howling Void -- all chaos voids in Glorantha are The Devil. Each hole is a part of the Devil -- like individual leaks in a boat, yet all let in the same Ocean. The Devil is the Ocean. The personification of the Devil is a mistake or misconception resulting from ignorance. Wakboth is the Guise of the Devil -- the insulation between the Devil and Glorantha. He was the ultimate scab formed by the world to protect itself from the invasion of chaos.

"Thed is called the Mother of the Devil, which is to say that she opened the hole into the Void. Her broo followers recreate this act when they worship her, creating other holes into chaos to sacrifice their foes and gain new allies.

"Rashoran knew this secret, and tried to teach it to the gods of the world; but only a few understood it. The Unholy Trio killed him when they thought they had all his knowledge. They planned to reduce the world to its primal essence and then remake it in their own image, but they failed because they did not understand what Rashoran had tried to teach them. Thus, they were doomed to ultimate failure: The Devil remade them even as they made Wakboth, and they became their own nightmares.

"Only I understand the terrible secret of Rashoran, and this has brought me to the sill of sanity. We are all chaos, for life itself does not exist. We are all Wakboth, fighting against ourself to save the non-existent world. I am Wakboth, I am The Devil, and I write this book to show you that you too are The Devil, if only you could realize it."

-- The Book of Drastic Resolutions

[Ormi Phengaria]

On 9/7/2022 at 1:34 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Why is hyperviolent and exceedingly anti-social Zorak Zoran making zombies non-Chaotic, while it's Chaotic when pro-social Gark the Calm does it in a controlled, consensual and regulated manner? Damned if I know - I don't have a better answer than "It's Chaos because it's Chaos that does it", and that's not exactly satisfying.

Gark's world is a forever diminished one which cannot see value in agency or personality or even change. Gark's peace is oblivion. Zorak Zoran's world is, ultimately, the one you see around you. If he killed and destroyed everything, he would lose himself, and the world would find itself reborn in any case.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Ormi Phengaria

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, AlHazred said:

"The Devil is the Howling Void -- all chaos voids in Glorantha are The Devil. Each hole is a part of the Devil -- like individual leaks in a boat, yet all let in the same Ocean. The Devil is the Ocean. The personification of the Devil is a mistake or misconception resulting from ignorance. Wakboth is the Guise of the Devil -- the insulation between the Devil and Glorantha. He was the ultimate scab formed by the world to protect itself from the invasion of chaos.

"Thed is called the Mother of the Devil, which is to say that she opened the hole into the Void. Her broo followers recreate this act when they worship her, creating other holes into chaos to sacrifice their foes and gain new allies.

"Rashoran knew this secret, and tried to teach it to the gods of the world; but only a few understood it. The Unholy Trio killed him when they thought they had all his knowledge. They planned to reduce the world to its primal essence and then remake it in their own image, but they failed because they did not understand what Rashoran had tried to teach them. Thus, they were doomed to ultimate failure: The Devil remade them even as they made Wakboth, and they became their own nightmares.

"Only I understand the terrible secret of Rashoran, and this has brought me to the sill of sanity. We are all chaos, for life itself does not exist. We are all Wakboth, fighting against ourself to save the non-existent world. I am Wakboth, I am The Devil, and I write this book to show you that you too are The Devil, if only you could realize it."

-- The Book of Drastic Resolutions

So, wouldn't killing the Devil Wakboth mean the scab is broken, and Chaos can seep into Glorantha the way the pus and blood does after you've hacked away at that scab?

[JRE]

My point is in my own version of Glorantha. Uz have non-consensual sex, usually high status females imposing on males, but even a low status female will be higher than many males. Adding the male devouring tradition of several of the popular insect deitis, such as Gorakiki Mantis or Aranea, I extrapolate that there will be priestesses that actually do not wait for their partners to accept due to social pressure. It is just another tool in the status competition, complicated by the strength makes right attitude of Uz. 

Considering there was an offspring, I do consider Arachne and Wakboth to have something that can be mythically considered sex, and I would affirm it was involuntary on the part of Wakboth, so rape. I also consider Aranea will have similar rituals, and they are the basis of what Arachne Solara did.

As I said above, I do not consider that rape is intrinsecally chaotic, the same as other evil acts. Broos issue from an act of rape, but they became chaotic afterwards, when their mother used the anger and spite from her rape to bring chaos into the world, and they joined her. Their chaotic trait is not rape itself, but their twisted fertility.

We have many myths of elemental conflict that seem to show disguised rape stories, many involving the Storm tribe, presented as kidnapping and involuntary marriages, though the storm tribe are not the only ones.