Ritual Sacrifice Rules

[Shiningbrow]

What about real sacrifice,  not just paying something you can easily afford?

There should be something for those times when what you want/need is going to *really * cost you...

[JRE]

That is up to the character and the GM, as there are no tables of equivalence. And the deity, of course. But usually at that point it is body parts, chunks of your life or things you cannot buy with money. 

Service is a classic, though less appropiate if you are a rune level 90% committed. Self-mutilation is another classic, though in RQ you also can abstract it by using characteristic points. It has to cost, not only the character but also the player. So maybe that iron sword they are inordinately fond of?

Evil guys can usually find a loophole by sacrificing other people to the right deity, so that is another way.

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What about real sacrifice,  not just paying something you can easily afford?

There should be something for those times when what you want/need is going to *really * cost you...

That sort of sacrifice is a modern idea.  Gods don't care about one's angst anymore than you would care about an ant that chewed its own leg off to honor you.  Would you even notice?  Besides, does any society really want to encourage self-destructive mysticism, or should they reject it as the mentally aberrant behavior of masochists who say "Look how I hurt myself and my own interests for you, mighty deity X...You owe me..."  It's a dreadful form of hubris when you think about it. 

There are of course some exceptions to this...

A deity might send visions of an extreme sacrifice being required.  This gets a bit Old Testament, and may be a test of faith rather than a demand for that outcome, a la Abraham and Isaac.

In shamanic societies, some rituals may require the participant to undergo extreme torture in order to demonstrate the strength of their spirit and receive visions.

In mystical societies, (using a Hindu example here) you can perform severe austerities in order to bend the cosmos to your will, such as holding your hand above your head for a decade or more, and through this act of willpower, bend the cosmos and the gods themselves to do your bidding. Of course the gods don't like these power gamers, and will generally find reasons to destroy them.

On the whole, I suspect that the Gods are simple creatures who only want reasonable sacrifices.  If your boss is coming over for dinner they would prefer a nice lamb roast to eating your first born child... Mostly... Depending on the boss...😉 

[Shiningbrow]

53 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That sort of sacrifice is a modern idea.

Not really, unless you're defining "modern" as within the last few thousand years.

Not quite that far back, Odin famously gave his eye for the knowledge and wisdom he received. And I don't think that it's all that uncommon and idea.

And then there's the propitiation for when things are really bad.

9 hours ago, JRE said:

Self-mutilation is another classic, though in RQ you also can abstract it by using characteristic points

Yes, that makes sense. It's one thing to say you sacrifice a point or 2 of something, however, I think it would make sense that said point reduction manifests itself physically somehow.

[Darius West]

On 5/8/2022 at 1:26 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Not really, unless you're defining "modern" as within the last few thousand years.

You're right.  Perhaps I should have said Classical?  I thought the sensibility was more modern in its inspiration, as I haven't found many good examples of cultures that engage in the sacrifice of their own body parts as part of religious rituals that weren't Classical or post-Classical, and yes, I class Christianity as a Classical religion.  Odin is an interesting example.  The Aztec priests and their "Crimson petals" are another pretty ghastly example.  I have heard of Greek city founders offering a finger in sacrifice to their city's new patron, but there doesn't seem to be much supporting info.  Interestingly, the oldest attributed inscription relating to Odin is about 200AD.  

[French Desperate WindChild]

note that "own sacrifice" could be "sacrifice your child, not your finger", I have in mind Carthage for example (reality or propaganda, there were people able to imagine that at this time)

 

but from a glorantha perspective, I would say it depends on the gods :

those who have a gor in her name, would accept it (at least in mine), same for any vicious cult (who said Chaos ?)

but for others.. seems to me it depends on the intent and the effect :

will Ernalda, the mother, accept a young and fertile woman to sacrifice her breast and then not be able to give milk to her baby ? probably not (for me)

will Orlanth, the every one, accept a man to sacrifice any part of his body only by devotion, without any gain, so losing a part of his effectiveness ? probably not (for me)

will Orlanth, the wise, accept a man to scarify himself, to suffer as his god, and obtain some advise... why not ?

will Yelm the archer accept his initiate to sacrifice his right hand, and then not be able to hit anymore ? mm depends how Yelm is severe and the initiate devoted and loyal

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 5/5/2022 at 4:41 PM, Baron Wulfraed said:

Just making sausages should qualify as some form of ritual sacrifice 😲

If you run on the principle that the gods like the odor of the burning fat and also like incense,

Then the poor man 's version of this is barbecuing pork ribs (the fat drips into the fire) and putting some rosemary twigs on the fire before you put the meat on.  Smells pretty good.  And you know how people anthropomorphize their gods.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Undoing the spelling scrambler.

[Darius West]

On 5/9/2022 at 7:16 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

note that "own sacrifice" could be "sacrifice your child, not your finger", I have in mind Carthage for example (reality or propaganda, there were people able to imagine that at this time)

I strongly suspect this was Roman propaganda.  Children weren't so much sacrificed to Baal Hammon as returned to him if they died prematurely or miscarried from what I can tell; less of a sacrifice than a "return to sender".  It is a very controversial area of archaeology and the matter is up for debate still.

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 5/13/2022 at 11:56 AM, Darius West said:

I strongly suspect this was Roman propaganda.  Children weren't so much sacrificed to Baal Hammon as returned to him if they died prematurely or miscarried from what I can tell; less of a sacrifice than a "return to sender".  It is a very controversial area of archaeology and the matter is up for debate still.

Archaeologists and anthropologists are not as convinced as you are. There is a strong religious movement opposed to child sacrifice starting in the 6th century BCE or so and culminating in the colonisation of Carthage specifically as a site of "we still sacrifice in the old way". The Bible isn't the only place where child sacrifice is mentioned or specifically replaced (the bris [Covenant with Abraham]), the sacrifice of the firstborn in "Egypt"; the Binding of Isaac, the daughter of Jephthah, the son of the king of Moab, the sons of the Kings of Judah Ahaz and Manassah), but it's the one that most people are going to be familiar with. Sites are doubtless predominantly just cemeteries for children, but sacrifice of children is attested.

The ancient Near East was wilder than most people think. I read a letter in a linguistics course at Harvard that was from a Hittite lord regarding a rebellious vassal, and in it he states clearly that he killed and ate the "rebel" king's mother and sister after he captured him. The letter was to a third party subordinate as a kind of update briefing, not apparently a propaganda document for the public. (Little-known fact: Hittite is a cousin of English.)