Secret identity in Glorantha: How?

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Of such things are Eurmal cultists made!

With all the Illusion spells available to them, Eurmal and Lanbril cultists are a natural for short- and medium-term infiltration.

from a orlanthi perspective, that seems the good choices. Probably some issue of loyalty , but the good ones. Of course be able to send the lambril guy with some smogscreen in case of... I focus on lambrili, because eurmali would have probably already a smogscreen in there mind, better than anything you may imagine (best option send your eurmali hiring the lambrili, no one except a malkavian other eurmali will be able to undestand something)

 

 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

 And with enough points of Extension, you can make the illusion last YEARS.

no no no. After few weeks your eurmali will believe she is really what she pretends to be ! 😛

 

 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

In other editions, there has been some discussions about cult tattoos magically changing if someone becomes apostate and so on, but as far as I know that hasn't been much discussed in RQG. That probably lies in the 'YGMV' side.

i remember (but my memory is somewhat.. well I understand the eurmal despair way) that in this forum the answer was tatoos are with ink (not something magical you get during your initiation) But after that, some (not all, rare I think) would may get magical transformation from their gods. So you could easily find people with "just" tattoos

[svensson]

To elaborate on my Eurmal suggestion...

a] There is nothing that says a Eurmal cult can't be 'organized'. Even anarchists here on Earth have hierarchies and task-leaders. If a Eurmal cult decided that the greatest prank of the decade would be to get one of their cultists into a senior position in a Lunar infantry regiment, I believe that they could focus their energies and efforts into realizing that goal. While this goal might take years of work, it certainly ISN'T a permanent situation. Eurmal cultists are not intelligence agents, they're pranksters in both the positive and negative senses.

b] There would have to be a significant non magical component a serious infiltration attempt. Solid percentiles in S/R/W Other Languages, Customs, and Cult Lore in the target society would be absolutely necessary and some Fast Talk and Orate wouldn't hurt either. And this is in addition to the 'professional skills' of the role the infiltrator will play in the target society.

c] Magical support would also be vital. Not just Illusion spells for the senses of the Mundane Plane, but also methods to disguise one's loyalties and affiliations. Cults have the manifest powers of their deity on their side in order to detect false worshipers, so it's probably best if infiltrator is an Illuminate anyway.

[EricW]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

To elaborate on my Eurmal suggestion...

a] There is nothing that says a Eurmal cult can't be 'organized'. Even anarchists here on Earth have hierarchies and task-leaders. If a Eurmal cult decided that the greatest prank of the decade would be to get one of their cultists into a senior position in a Lunar infantry regiment, I believe that they could focus their energies and efforts into realizing that goal. While this goal might take years of work, it certainly ISN'T a permanent situation. Eurmal cultists are not intelligence agents, they're pranksters in both the positive and negative senses.

b] There would have to be a significant non magical component a serious infiltration attempt. Solid percentiles in S/R/W Other Languages, Customs, and Cult Lore in the target society would be absolutely necessary and some Fast Talk and Orate wouldn't hurt either. And this is in addition to the 'professional skills' of the role the infiltrator will play in the target society.

c] Magical support would also be vital. Not just Illusion spells for the senses of the Mundane Plane, but also methods to disguise one's loyalties and affiliations. Cults have the manifest powers of their deity on their side in order to detect false worshipers, so it's probably best if infiltrator is an Illuminate anyway.

YGMV, but Orlanth had to bind Eurmal to make him stop messing up, and even then Eurmal did bad things on the LBQ.

And much of the second age was Eurmal’s fault, after he taught humans to speak to dragons - for a laugh.

Eurmal might have lots of useful spells, but he is the embodiment of wasted potential.

[svensson]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

YGMV, but Orlanth had to bind Eurmal to make him stop messing up, and even then Eurmal did bad things on the LBQ.

And much of the second age was Eurmal’s fault, after he taught humans to speak to dragons - for a laugh.

Eurmal might have lots of useful spells, but he is the embodiment of wasted potential.

Well, this is veering slightly off topic, but I don't see Eurmal as 'wasted potential'. Every society needs an element of healthy disorder in it... comedy, satire, irreverence, gadfly commentators, etc. For Orlanthi, Eurmal is that role. He's the 'Coyote'-spirit [in the Native American mythical sense] of the Orlanthi. He provides an outlet for the Orlanthi society's outliers to function within the law. Every society has a few iconoclasts in it; in Heortling /Sartarite society, Eurmal is their patron.

[EricW]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, this is veering slightly off topic, but I don't see Eurmal as 'wasted potential'. Every society needs an element of healthy disorder in it... comedy, satire, irreverence, gadfly commentators, etc. For Orlanthi, Eurmal is that role. He's the 'Coyote'-spirit [in the Native American mythical sense] of the Orlanthi. He provides an outlet for the Orlanthi society's outliers to function within the law. Every society has a few iconoclasts in it; in Heortling /Sartarite society, Eurmal is their patron.

Eurmal is a lazy drunken glutton who spend all his time stealing, pranking serious folk, chasing pretty girls, creating confusion with his lies, and running away from his responsibilities.

Seems like "wasted potential" to me. The fact he helped save the world and is occasionally useful doesn't change that. A powerful Eurmali might accept a serious infiltration task, and genuinely mean to carry it through, but by the end of the day surely it would be fart cushions and total bedlam - competing groups on "special assignment" to root out traitors, pumped up on trickster lies, screaming and denouncing each other. Fistfights in front of the officers.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by EricW

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

Eurmal is a lazy drunken glutton who spend all his time stealing, pranking serious folk, chasing pretty girls, creating confusion with his lies, and running away from his responsibilities.

Seems like "wasted potential" to me. The fact he helped save the world and is occasionally useful doesn't change that. A powerful Eurmali might accept a serious infiltration task, and genuinely mean to carry it through, but by the end of the day surely it would be fart cushions and total bedlam - competing groups on "special assignment" to root out traitors, pumped up on trickster lies, screaming and denouncing each other. Fistfights in front of the officers.

 

 

What you are describing is an archetype. I would say one Eurmali would have a part of this behaviour, but no reason, to me  at least, to get all.

You may find a drunking glutton who never steal, or a facetious liar who never eats more than the bare minimum

[JRE]

I would say Theist magic in Glorantha is transactional. You behave right, you get the magic. That is MGF as you can have doubters, hesitant priests or fanatics outside normal dogma. Not cookie cutter worshippers emulating their deity in the exact same way.

Which however means that at certain points the Eurmali will need to steal something or lie, to keep their status. But thay can more or less choose how and when. And it is better to be careful with them around Disorder week. 

I expect a resident Eurmali behaves differently than a nomadic one, as you cannot run away from your actions. So if you are obnoxious and abusive with the local girls, you will likely get a javelin in your neck and nobody will regret it unless you were the last Eurmali in the clan, or if you were already far away when the family of the offended come looking for you. 

A clan ring Eurmali, with hopefully high Loyalty (clan) and maybe even a strong Love, can be trusted to behave most of the time, and also at this point they already know they will steal pies, paint alynxes yellow and some other relatively inoffensive disorder things that the clan will tolerate to keep the magic. Maybe a few times a year they will travel some distance and do something outrageous to people who are not of the clan, and ideally someone they Hate. That may well be an infiltration mission...

The only Eurmali in a clan may be a real pain in the ass, as they are needed, so they can get away with much more.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What you are describing is an archetype. I would say one Eurmali would have a part of this behaviour, but no reason, to me  at least, to get all.

You may find a drunking glutton who never steal, or a facetious liar who never eats more than the bare minimum

Indeed.  Being a trickster could even mean behaving normally in every way, while declaring yourself an Eurmali.  

[Darius West]

7 hours ago, EricW said:

Eurmal is a lazy drunken glutton who spend all his time stealing, pranking serious folk, chasing pretty girls, creating confusion with his lies, and running away from his responsibilities.

Seems like "wasted potential" to me. The fact he helped save the world and is occasionally useful doesn't change that. A powerful Eurmali might accept a serious infiltration task, and genuinely mean to carry it through, but by the end of the day surely it would be fart cushions and total bedlam - competing groups on "special assignment" to root out traitors, pumped up on trickster lies, screaming and denouncing each other. Fistfights in front of the officers.

Yeah, infiltration requires an illuminated trickster like Elusu the Little Shit imo.  Illuminated tricksters can overcome their innate self-indulgence long enough to complete a mission.  Swallow is the strangest assassination method, but exactly what a Lunar deserves, given their Bat abuse.

[JonL]

Really, the biggest hurdle here is knowing that Lanbril even exists in the first place. The second hardest part is finding Lanbril cultists. The third hardest part is recruiting (joining?) them rather than getting assassinated once they know that you know about them and were able to find them. After that, you're all good.

(Karsht would be more than happy to help you infiltrate and degrade a hierarchical power structure, but you're better off getting whacked by Lanbrili.)

[EricW]

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yeah, infiltration requires an illuminated trickster like Elusu the Little Shit imo.  Illuminated tricksters can overcome their innate self-indulgence long enough to complete a mission.  Swallow is the strangest assassination method, but exactly what a Lunar deserves, given their Bat abuse.

I've always thought of "Swallow" as a Trickster version of "summoning of evil". Divination "Where is our missing relative / military commander / child" will point to the trickster 😉 

As for Elusu, I don't think Elusu gave up being a "Little Shit" just because of hanging around with Argrath. I mean, don't you think it would be irresistible if you were a trickster infiltrator brimming with subversion magic to spread a little paranoia, with trickster lies like "your commander is actually an ogre who is sizing you up for his next meal", or "your commander never intends to promote you", or "I've received intelligence that your underlings are plotting to assassinate you, because you punished the squad after they were defeated by rebels". Or simply lie for convenience, like if someone asks the commander / infiltrator about their response to a report, shout at the underlying "I told you to rewrite that report, you slacker! And this time include some detail!".

[Darius West]

5 hours ago, EricW said:

As for Elusu, I don't think Elusu gave up being a "Little Shit" just because of hanging around with Argrath. I 

I have played it that Elusu's nickname comes from the fact that she is fond of leaving little shits in places to prank people.  I believe that the term "Crapule" which means "little shit" is a French term for a villainess.  French Desperate WindChild, please confirm or refute this, if you would be so kind 😅.

[JonL]

Now I'm imagining posting a sign that says, "Help Wanted: Infiltrator - Leave your resume in the commander's desk."

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

I have played it that Elusu's nickname comes from the fact that she is fond of leaving little shits in places to prank people.  I believe that the term "Crapule" which means "little shit" is a French term for a villainess.  French Desperate WindChild, please confirm or refute this, if you would be so kind 😅.

 

Is someone calling me ? Is it a summon evil ceremony ? Are you saying I am the evil ?!

 

of course I know what means crapule in french... now the question is how can I translate it in english ? 😛

a villain, yes you can say that. I will not use the term "little shit" for a crapule (well the french literal translation, now, I m not aware of all the senses behind little shit)

for me "une crapule" is really worse than "petite merde / petit merdeux". in both cases despicable, but crapule can do very bad things.

 

On 5/11/2022 at 2:37 PM, JonL said:

The second hardest part is finding Lanbril cultists.

I think that the question is not to find a lambril cultist, but to find a "crapule 😛 " able to do what you want. And maybe with luck, you will hire a Lanbril guy.

But for sure you must know someone, who know someone, who know someone...

[Darius West]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

of course I know what means crapule in french... now the question is how can I translate it in english ? 😛

a villain, yes you can say that. I will not use the term "little shit" for a crapule (well the french literal translation, now, I m not aware of all the senses behind little shit)

for me "une crapule" is really worse than "petite merde / petit merdeux". in both cases despicable, but crapule can do very bad things.

A wonderful exegesis on French slang FDWC, many thanks.👍

[JRE]

I am not French, but I lived several years there, and we have a similar word in Spanish, and I have to say that Crápula / Crapule is a classic literature word (highly used in XVIth-XIXth literature) with etymology going back to latin (crapula, wine excess) and old greek (κ ρ α ι π α ́ λ η, drunkenness).

It evolved to mean any degenerate, usually someone who started right and degrades down into all kind of vices. As such it fits very well with a trickster, as alcohol is just the entry point to a wide series of vices.

Taking it a bit further, being the village drunk lets you do magic in Glorantha, and as it is likely you get to join community HQ as Eurmal, the magic may start to pile up. However the magic you need for infiltration and spying are present in only a few shrines, so those are the Eurmali you need. If the town Eurmali just has a detachable penis, can hallucinate for hours, bring up rainbow unicorns and make beer taste like wine, he will be popular at parties, but no good as a spy.

[Joerg]

25 minutes ago, JRE said:

If the town Eurmali just has a detachable penis, can hallucinate for hours, bring up rainbow unicorns and make beer taste like wine, he will be popular at parties, but no good as a spy.

Being able to host such parties or merge with those is a tool of spycraft, too...

[JRE]

I agree they is one of the best information sources for the clan ring, but we were talking impersonating an enemy for some time without being detected, not general information gathering.

[MOB]

On 5/9/2022 at 2:43 AM, AndreJarosch said:

An esrolian Ernaldan noble women and her Babeester Gor servant. It is easy to imagine them switching places for a short term in the way Padme and Sabé did, but in longer time periods their cover would blew very fast. 
Same premise: A rich Issaries trader and his Humkati body guard. Also their cover would blew very fast.

On 5/9/2022 at 3:26 AM, David Scott said:

An esrolian Ernaldan noble women and her Ernaldan servent
A rich Issaries trader and his Issaries assistant
You gone for very extreme swaps here, keep the cults the same.

On 5/9/2022 at 3:28 AM, Jeff said:

The classic is the Esrolian Ernaldan nobles woman and her Donandar servant. 
The Orlanthi Wind Lord and his Eurmali companion.
You are looking for the Illusion Rune in action here.

Tying all these together, I can see an Eurmali cheerfully spinning up their Illusion magic so an Ernaldan noblewoman and her Babeester Gor bodyguard could swap places. The Eurmal cultist would do it for the lols alone, just as long as they could go along to watch the comedy that ensues. (In fact, isn't that the plot of that popular Boldhome burlesque play, Freaky Fireday?)

Edited May 31, 2022 by MOB

[g33k]

On 5/11/2022 at 5:37 AM, JonL said:

... The third hardest part is recruiting (joining?) them rather than getting assassinated once they know that you know about them and were able to find them ...

I think Lanbril tries reasonably-hard to avoid assassination.
Far, FAR  better just to vanish into another corner of the underworld, and let all the seeker's hard-won investigative results evaporate like a water-spill on hot paving-stones...

[AndreJarosch]

17 hours ago, MOB said:

Tying all these together, I can see an Eurmali cheerfully spinning up their Illusion magic so an Ernaldan noblewoman and her Babeester Gor bodyguard could swap places. The Eurmal cultist would do it for the lols alone, just as long as they could go along to watch the comedy that ensues. (In fact, isn't that the plot of that popular Boldhome burlesque play, Freaky Fireday?)

The movie my question was based upon is "RRR". Available on Netflix now (Telegu with english subitles). 
Maybe you will understand what i am looking for if you have seen it. 🙂

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

The movie my question was based upon is "RRR". Available on Netflix now (Telegu with english subitles). 
Maybe you will understand what i am looking for if you have seen it. 🙂

Netflix only lets me watch it in HINDI with subtitles, which is not unexpectedly a surreal experience

[g33k]

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

The movie my question was based upon is "RRR". Available on Netflix now (Telegu with english subitles). 
Maybe you will understand what i am looking for if you have seen it. 🙂

n.b. skimming the plot precis on the Wikipedia page, I gather these "secret identities" were largely assumed relatively early in life; not (in Gloranthan terms) Orlanthi Windlords and Swords of Humakt, but mere Initiates choosing to infiltrate and pursue their "adult careers" inside the enemy power-structure; waiting for years before exacting their vengence...  Also, the "infiltrator" is really motivated by Passion (Loyalty, Love, Hate, etc), not a Cultic thing (Lightbringer-vs-Lunar, etc).  Is this correct?

If so, I suggest that magic-rich Glorantha isn't really the game where this is a likely plotline:  these hidden loyalties are prohibitively-difficult (expensive in RP/MP, requiring unusual combo's of spells, skills, etc) to keep hidden.

How to do it, despite this?  As an NPC, everything can be handled via GM fiat.  So long as it's game-mechanically-possible, then "prohibitive expense" alone shouldn't be a barrier to the GM's plot devices.  As a "starting PC," prohibitive expense is... well... prohibitive.

Let's see what we can do...

As noted, escaping various Lunar surveillance & loyalty/disloyalty-detection methods is crucial.

• Illumination is Your Friend, here.  Being some sort of Illuminate seems a virtual necessity, being an "always on" form of non-detection.
• Lanbril's Divination-Block looks like a big asset, because even Illuminates can still be magically-surveilled to see if their actions match their professed loyalties.
• Sorcery is the King of Long-Term Magic.  You don't have to be a Sorceror, though:  not if you have a sorcerous ally (or the right magic in an item).

I would start a PC as dual-cult in 7M + Lanbril (using Cult Compendium and Red Book of Magic to interpolate the RQG version of Lanbril), with a "Passion: Hate (Lunar Empire)".  The PC can feel that 7M & Sedenya are good things, but that the Empire itself has strayed from the Real, True Lunar Way.  Note that being a genuine 7M cultist means you have the right tats, literacy, cult lores, &c (and don't  have those problematic Lightbringer ones!).

The big sticking-point, rules-wise, is Illumination.  AFAIK, there simply are no RQG rules for this (pending the GM's book), and (wearing my GM's hat) I find it quite problematic to give starting PC's "special&advanced rule-breaking magic" (i.e. Illumination), rather than having them earn such advanced options in play.  Bribe your GM with a pizza, or something...?

I mostly don't use Sorcery in my games, so I can't best-advise on how to integrate this.  I presume an heirloom-item with a big MP-store will be needed to fuel a long-term durations of Sorcery, even if there's another item actually storing the Sorcery-spell.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Netflix only lets me watch it in HINDI with subtitles, which is not unexpectedly a surreal experience

That must truly be a pleasure for a linguist!

 

[AndreJarosch]

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Netflix only lets me watch it in HINDI with subtitles, which is not unexpectedly a surreal experience

I watched in a a movie theater like this (Telugu with english sub titles), and we in germany are not used to subtitles et all (almost EVERYTHING that you can watch here is dubbed in german).
I found it not difficult: The english occupators speak english (and are subtitles in english as well!). And genereally there isn´t soooo much text to follow, it´s easy to follow the subtitles.