Which is the *worst* cult?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Dr. Device said:

Having morale available to Light Sons seems like a proper mythic representation of Yelmalio the leader.

And it would give the Sun Dome Templars some actual battlefield magic - it’s supposed to be a soldier cult, but it’s not obvious how it holds it own against units with proper magic. Yes, pikes are nice in the right context, but…

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

From a rules perspective, the upcoming Shield spell is all that’s required to make Yelmalio a passable cult for warriors. Right now though, you get more martial magic out of Ernalda (which is admittedly hilarious).

This is an excellent summation.  Yelmalio should be a good cult for warriors, not merely "passable."

The fact that it doesn't even rate as passable, and is arguably weaker than Ernalda, is a significant problem.

 

[jajagappa]

25 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

What's a fitting boon if your Yelmalio character survives the Hill of Gold heroquest?

Immortality!  You lived when everyone and everything else died.

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Yelmalio should be a good cult for warriors, not merely "passable."

I can actually buy the argument that it should only be a semi-decent cult for warriors, because its focus is soldiers. The problem is that it doesn't really deliver ruleswise there either.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Beoferret]

Quick two cents. I honestly like both Waha and Yelmalio. How to make them a little more gameable though, while maintaining their distinctiveness. Part of the answers is through special skills, which we have with Yelmalio (pike/2H spear and shield training). And, as everyone's arguing about already, there's Rune spells. What I'd consider:

for Waha - add Command (Herdbeast), maybe with it tied to each tribe's particular animal - e.g., bison riders get Command (Bison), etc. No, it's not immediately useful for a dungeon delve, but it's got utility for any player who's imaginative (and whose character ends up in a situation where said beasts are around.)

for Yelmalio - Like others have already noted, Morale seems like a good match. The ritual could be enacted for the Yelmalian's adventuring party before, say, marching into Snakepipe Hollow. Question though: how would it stack with other combat buffs, like Bladesharp or True Sword? Even if it didn't stack - and so wasn't always useful for other combat-oriented PC's - it'd still be good for hirelings. Also, what about a similar, but new, group-focused defensive spell? "Group Shield" - 3 Rune points + magic points; provides one point of magical armor for caster and one other person per magic point spent; all targets of spell must stay within 160 meters of the caster. (Come to think of it, this might be a cool effect for a Sun Domer magic standard.)

All three spell suggestions retain the strong link with cult and culture and so maintain cult distinctiveness. None threaten to overshadow other characters. At least in my opinion.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Beoferret

[Rob Darvall]

1 hour ago, Beoferret said:

Quick two cents. I honestly like both Waha and Yelmalio. How to make them a little more gameable though, while maintaining their distinctiveness.

 

 

My son has suggested a skill in large shield that protects the right side of anyone fighting to their left.

So you could parry blows for another PC.

[Akhôrahil]

14 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

My son has suggested a skill in large shield that protects the right side of anyone fighting to their left.

So you could parry blows for another PC.

This is kinda how a shield wall works under the rules, but unfortunately shield walls only make sense for incompetent combatants. It’s an ideal way to organize the militia, but not a tool for adventurers.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is kinda how a shield wall works under the rules, but unfortunately shield walls only make sense for incompetent combatants. It’s an ideal way to organize the militia, but not a tool for adventurers.

Agree.  The whole "Yelmalios are effective because they fight in a shield wall" theme is ultimately a "Yelmalios aren't effective adventurers" message, unless you are in an atypical campaign.

[Darius West]

On 5/16/2022 at 10:22 PM, Shiningbrow said:

One thing I would fine annoying about being in Waha is how half of the skill selection to be a Khan aren't on the Cult skills list - no Orate, Scan or Track, and the "another weapon skill" may or may not be a "tribal weapon".

I have an advance copy of RQ:GoG.

So FYI Waha lay members will get half price Ride, Spirit Combat, Scan, Survival (Prax), Track and Tribal weapons.  No love for Orate in the mix apparently.  I would point out that a Noble background gets you +30% Orate and you may follow Waha, so there is clearly a bit of class warfare going on in Prax (just put it on the heap with all the other types of warfare plz).

Initiates add Waha Lore and Worship Waha to the half price list.  Again with no orate.  Clearly "people skills" are not a Praxian priority.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I have an advance copy of RQ:GoG.

So FYI Waha lay members will get half price Ride, Spirit Combat, Scan, Survival (Prax), Track and Tribal weapons.  No love for Orate in the mix apparently.  I would point out that a Noble background gets you +30% Orate and you may follow Waha, so there is clearly a bit of class warfare going on in Prax (just put it on the heap with all the other types of warfare plz).

Initiates add Waha Lore and Worship Waha to the half price list.  Again with no orate.  Clearly "people skills" are not a Praxian priority.

However those who hope to become khan must be noble (if there is no change from previous version)

so prove yourself as a leader (be noble blood and have noble occupation), be chosen as the chief heir by the leaders and then pass the tests to be khan. No need to study as it must have been your current occupation for a while

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

What's a fitting boon if your Yelmalio character survives the Hill of Gold heroquest?

Immortality

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Agree.  The whole "Yelmalios are effective because they fight in a shield wall" theme is ultimately a "Yelmalios aren't effective adventurers" message, unless you are in an atypical campaign.

Also, if you never have any problems using your pike in enclosed spaces, your GM just isn't paying attention...

[soltakss]

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, if you never have any problems using your pike in enclosed spaces, your GM just isn't paying attention...

Pikes are absolutely fine in enclosed places.

If you have four pike wielders in a tunnel, you can stop NPCs before they reach you. 

Corners are tricky, unless you have "snooker cue extension" pikes that you can unscrew and put together again easily.

Shergar Sunhoof, Centaur Extraordinaire, used inflated bladders, Extended Breathe Air/Water and a Pike very successfully against sharks. It's amazing what the "Set Pike" rules do against a charging shark.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If you have four pike wielders in a tunnel, you can stop NPCs before they reach you

Not if they come from behind you.

[Godlearner]

37 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not if they come from behind you.

Yes, you can ... The technic is known to the Yelmalio Sacred Bands.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

32 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yes, you can ... The technic is known to the Yelmalio Sacred Bands.

I realize "there is no physics" in Glorantha, but math and topology is math and topology.  I've seen several adventures where it is physically impossible to turn around a long spear, not to mention a pike.

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not if they come from behind you.

Unless the NPCs have been following the group for hours, and entered the cave system the same way the group did, then I'd say the group did a bad job of clearing the cave/tunnel system before advancing deeper. Or the NPCs are a group that can quietly dig through rock, to essentially ambush the party.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I realize "there is no physics" in Glorantha, but math and topology is math and topology.  I've seen several adventures where it is physically impossible to turn around a long spear, not to mention a pike.

You just have not played with soltakss afore. I have not neither but have followed his escapades for 4 decades and expect almost anything from him....

[Lordabdul]

On 5/17/2022 at 12:04 PM, dumuzid said:

Your examples are mixing up the cause and effect.  Orlanth didn't reconcile with Yelm through 'reconcile with those you've wronged' magic, he accomplished the deed of reconciling with Yelm, creating a mythic event for his followers within Time to emulate and draw power from. 

Your reasoning is sound, and that's why I was also confused about what gets turned into Rune spells and what doesn't. Based on other answers I got from Jeff on the same topic, my understanding is that this all must be mitigated by thinking about the archetype of a God and its position in the cosmos. Having an "Orlanth Repentant" (love the name!) sub-cult that offers mediation and reconciliation magic would possibly require Orlanth to become a runner-up in the shortlist of "avatars of the Harmony Rune". This list is already occupied by other gods such as Issaries or Chalana Arroy. That might put Orlanth at odds with those gods (who are his buddies, by the way) or somehow move his role around within the monomyth, and possibly creating an opening for some other god to become the new main Air or Movement (unless Orlanth is "big enough" to add one more Rune to his roster). And I frankly can't really describe Orlanth's and Yelm's agreement to be super efficient and agreeable anyway.

Disclaimer: this is my own interpretation as of, like, two weeks ago. I'm still processing all this stuff and trying to reconcile rules and setting. And yeah despite this I still think Yelmalio should have some sort of resilience/tough-it-out spell -- it would not only fix common player complaints, but (and I'm spitballing here) it might also be linked to the Stasis Rune (which Yelmalio would have to gain), making a lesser-used Rune more useful (please ignore for 5min that Yelmalio is also a star that moves… like I said I’m spitballing)

Edited May 19, 2022 by Ludovic aka Lordabdul

[Rodney Dangerduck]

32 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

You just have not played with soltakss afore. I have not neither but have followed his escapades for 4 decades and expect almost anything from him....

I'm pretty sure that his style is extremely different than ours.  Though I generally appreciate his posts and insights

 

[JRE]

It has nothing to do with Waha, but you should know most pikes have a spike on the other business end, and it can be used in case of need, or if you cannot turn the pike around. It is also good to finish off prone foes after you push them down and trample them, or if they try smart tactics like tumbling under the pikeheads. 

So the pikes stay more or less in place and the wielders change sides. 

Longspears do, too, and dueling tactics with spears use both points in some quarterstaff like moves, but that would never work in a battle formation. 

 

[Ormi Phengaria]

7 hours ago, Ludovic aka Lordabdul said:

Your reasoning is sound, and that's why I was also confused about what gets turned into Rune spells and what doesn't. Based on other answers I got from Jeff on the same topic, my understanding is that this all must be mitigated by thinking about the archetype of a God and its position in the cosmos. Having an "Orlanth Repentant" (love the name!) sub-cult that offers mediation and reconciliation magic would possibly require Orlanth to become a runner-up in the shortlist of "avatars of the Harmony Rune". This list is already occupied by other gods such as Issaries or Chalana Arroy. That might put Orlanth at odds with those gods (who are his buddies, by the way) or somehow move his role around within the monomyth, and possibly creating an opening for some other god to become the new main Air or Movement (unless Orlanth is "big enough" to add one more Rune to his roster). And I frankly can't really describe Orlanth's and Yelm's agreement to be super efficient and agreeable anyway.

Disclaimer: this is my own interpretation as of, like, two weeks ago. I'm still processing all this stuff and trying to reconcile rules and setting. And yeah despite this I still think Yelmalio should have some sort of resilience/tough-it-out spell -- it would not only fix common player complaints, but (and I'm spitballing here) it might also be linked to the Stasis Rune (which Yelmalio would have to gain), making a lesser-used Rune more useful (please ignore for 5min that Yelmalio is also a star that moves… like I said I’m spitballing)

Regarding the latter point, here is the big issue: Yelmalio is . His "stick-it-outness" does exist; it is . Looking at it another way, you could say that Yelmalio is the undying truth of light. The truth which doesn't succumb to falsehood. The truth which doesn't succumb to darkness. That truth cannot be put out no matter what is done to it, but it's still a truth about light-- it is not a truth about corporeal humans surviving an absolute ass-kicking, even though his worshipers see the events of the Hill of Gold through that lens. Light has many meanings, but that is not one of them.

Orlanth is . The Lightbringers Quest is a deed (several, actually) involving both of these runes. But it cannot be expressed as a rune spell at all, because it is not an expression of Orlanth alone, or even as the Lightbringers alone. Instead, Orlanth is the motive impulse of the Quest, the one who brings about its necessity and the one who resolves to set off upon it to fix the world, and that power does substantially find itself reflected in his rune spells.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Ormi Phengaria

[Eff]

4 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Regarding the latter point, here is the big issue: Yelmalio is . His "stick-it-outness" does exist; it is . Looking at it another way, you could say that Yelmalio is the undying truth of light. The truth which doesn't succumb to falsehood. The truth which doesn't succumb to darkness. That truth cannot be put out no matter what is done to it, but it's still a truth about light-- it is not a truth about corporeal humans surviving an absolute ass-kicking, even though his worshipers see the events of the Hill of Gold through that lens. Light has many meanings, but that is not one of them.

Orlanth is . The Lightbringers Quest is a deed (several, actually) involving both of these runes. But it cannot be expressed as a rune spell at all, because it is not an expression of Orlanth alone, or even as the Lightbringers alone. Instead, Orlanth is the motive impulse of the Quest, the one who brings about its necessity and the one who resolves to set off upon it to fix the world, and that power does substantially find itself reflected in his rune spells.

Yeah, it's a shift from the kind of understandings of mythology as a psychosocial phenomenon that someone like Eliade or Levi-Strauss would have written in the 50s through 70s to something more directly Jungian. Instead of the Hill of Gold providing a semiotic means of enduring stress and pain and difficulty that literalizes into magic, the Hill of Gold provides a semiotic means of enduring stress and pain and difficulty that is inherently ephemeral and in the realm of "ask your GM". Cosmogony is replaced by Rune magic as a devolution of sorcery, in that sorcery directly manipulates the archetypes and theurgy has to put on the square pyramidal hats for its Devo sorcery.

[MOB]

On 5/18/2022 at 6:34 AM, Runeblogger said:

What's a fitting boon if your Yelmalio character survives the Hill of Gold heroquest?

Effective immortality, in an Old Guard sort of way...

 

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, JRE said:

It has nothing to do with Waha, but you should know most pikes have a spike on the other business end

I think that spike on the other end is also to drive the pike in the ground when facing cavalry, no?

 

1 hour ago, MOB said:

Effective immortality, in an Old Guard sort of way...

I really liked both the comicbook and the movie, so I approve of this!