Which is the *worst* cult?

[icebrand]

38 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I am seeing it as a cult with decent offensive and defensive magic, unlike Yelmalio, and great social benefits. The healing thing is managable.

Man im around 140% certain using fix intelligence in combat goes against the lore. I'll check my books later to see if i just rolled 96-00 😅

I also remember something about that spell only being used in members of the covenant.

In any case, one shot spells are not viable combat tools. How many times are you going to use that strategy?

Because by the 4th time your khan, who already has low healing prowess, low combat prowess, and is a worse hunter than any hunter god now has -8 rune points compared to the rest of your party.

And 8 rune points is 23 seasons average, IF you get a POW check every single season (at least you have slow, a reliable spell to get checks)

Mechanically, the 2 worst things that can happen to an adventurer are:

#1 death

#2 pow drain (you can restore the others)

Pretty much everything else you can bounce from. Heck, dying can be better than losing pow if you like have a chalana in the party.

A one-use runespell can actually be worse than an ID if the runelord has 10+ RPs!!!

Also: using fixing INT in combat is pretty horrible, isnt it? Like... "The guy that lobotomizes people" seriously? Thats effed up man, you are worse than some chaos gods...

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by icebrand

[Godlearner]

57 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Man im around 140% certain using fix intelligence in combat goes against the lore. I'll check my books later to see if i just rolled 96-00 😅

I also remember something about that spell only being used in members of the covenant.

The wording in Gods of Glorantha RQ3 does not specify either and since we are talking tweeks, none are needed.

 

59 minutes ago, icebrand said:

In any case, one shot spells are not viable combat tools. How many times are you going to use that strategy?

Its a very viable strategy. Of course you will not want to use it in every situation, but sometime it is the only way to go. In my case for example, the character carried it for a long time before a battling an ogre Talon. It as almost impossible to get through his armor, so I released a Spirit of Law and once his POW was reduced by spirit combat, the Fix Int turned him into an animal which was then much easier to handle.

In most combat, this is not needed and Khan is free to use combat enhancing fire spells to get the job done.

 

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Because by the 4th time your khan, who already has low healing prowess, low combat prowess, and is a worse hunter than any hunter god now has -8 rune points compared to the rest of your party.

And 8 rune points is 23 seasons average, IF you get a POW check every single season (at least you have slow, a reliable spell to get checks)

You are again thinking stricly RQG. In prior version POW gain rolls happend more often and a Khan did not need to keep his POW at 18.

[icebrand]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

. Of course you will not want to use it in every situation, but sometime it is the only way to go.

You put yourself in that situation, by picking Waha. He's a god better suited for NPCs, like ty kora tek or something. Sure those characters can be amazing at freeform roleplay, but then again, everyone in glorantha is amazing. 

Thing is, Waha adventurers kinda suck -no offense intended- at playing published adventures, hexcrawl and dungeon crawl. Thats pretty much all i run LOL.

You played a Waha hero. Why? When? For how long? What chargen did you use, how high %s did you get?

If you could buff Waha however you liked, what would you change, if anything?

What kind of campaign was it, and if it applies, were you aware waha was a low tier god?

 

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

so I released a Spirit of Law and once his POW was reduced by spirit combat

How do you play summon spirit of law? The rules both in RQ2 and RQG say its a single attack (slightly diferent wording)

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

You are again thinking stricly RQG. In prior version POW gain rolls happend more often and a Khan did not need to keep his POW at 18.

I'm sorry i never get to play, my players thought Waha was a wuss (and literally bullied wahans in game), and if i ever get to play RQ3, im a filthy power gamer so severed dick jokes it is.

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

You are again thinking stricly RQG. In prior version POW gain rolls happend more often and a Khan did not need to keep his POW at 18.

I would love to talk about RQ3 all day, but forum rules say this is for RQG because it's the version people can get now, and if you clarify, RQCE (which unlike 3, is compatible and people can also get now), so when posting i always assume RQG!

Edited May 14, 2022 by icebrand

[Martin Dick]

RQG clearly has a design philosophy that throws game balance out the window in terms of the mechanics, Jason, Jeff and co weren't trying to ensure that every 11th level character was roughly equivalent in combat power. Personally that's how it's always been with all the versions of RQ and it's one of the reasons I like RQ. I mainly played Issaries characters in RQ2 and RQ3 and I never was the combat monster, but fortunately I had GMs who always made sure that our scenarios were diverse and required all sorts of strengths to complete, so none of the characters were ever sidelined and even an Issaries initiate can be a useful spellcaster in combat and when you got your staff parry up and had some Crush going, you could occupy a bad guy until one of the combat monsters got around to them. Game balance in RQG is all about the GM adapting to the players that they have as opposed to making everyone equal.

Now, if you are running a combat-centric game and you want Waha to be a useful option in such a game, then just add a few appropriate combat rune spells that you think will make the cult comparable with Orlanth/Yelmalio, have Eiritha give them some of her survival spells, add a few relevant skills and you're done.  We can then talk about what could be done about upping his combat power and what myths are associated with this combat-upgraded Waha. As a Butcher, Slash sounds pretty appropriate and is likely to be sufficient in itself.

I think playing a Waha initiate could be lots of fun, so I'm far from thinking it's the worst cult. if I had to choose a worst cult, I'd probably go for Humakt as it is so wide open to being a refuge for murder-hobos and potentially harder to develop a broad array of characters, but of course there are heaps of people out there playing lots of fun Humakti characters

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

I am seeing Waha as a cult that tends toward the shaman path.  If you go with the flow and eventually go for shaman then you get Waha's benefits to shamans: four bonus shamanic powers jump you from newbie to powerful.  But this does require a GM who provides the opportunities.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

Now, if you are running a combat-centric game and you want Waha to be a useful option in such a game, then just add a few appropriate combat rune spells that you think will make the cult comparable with Orlanth/Yelmalio,

Wait, you think Yelmalio is a good god for combat characters?!

[Godlearner]

9 hours ago, icebrand said:

You played a Waha hero. Why? When? For how long? What chargen did you use, how high %s did you get?

If you could buff Waha however you liked, what would you change, if anything?

What kind of campaign was it, and if it applies, were you aware waha was a low tier god?

Waha worshiper was my first character ever, I played him for many years. He also joined Storm Bull later in the game. Skill wise he was in the 100 - 150% range in main skills and 80 - 100% in most of the secondary skills. I never viewed him as a "low tier god". We did a lot of fighting in and around Pavis and the Big Rubble against the Lunars and Chaos. The party was a mixture of Lightbringers, but no Orlanthi or Ylmalios (those was considered a wuss cult, LOL

 

9 hours ago, icebrand said:

RQG because it's the version people can get now

Ok RQG. Waha gets all common divine, so that solves the issue with healing. His association with shamans makes all spirit magic accessable rather than just "cult spells". Sure, he does not compare well with a Humakt in one on one, but he does well agaist Chaos and other things.

[Martin Dick]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Wait, you think Yelmalio is a good god for combat characters?!

I was referring back to the opening post: "Everyone laughs at yelmalio, but it seems to me that the sun domers run circles around WAHA." 

[icebrand]

10 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

RQG clearly has a design philosophy that throws game balance out the window in terms of the mechanics, Jason, Jeff and co weren't trying to ensure that every 11th level character was roughly equivalent in combat power. Personally that's how it's always been with all the versions of RQ and it's one of the reasons I like RQ. I mainly played Issaries characters in RQ2 and RQ3 and I never was the combat monster, but fortunately I had GMs who always made sure that our scenarios were diverse and required all sorts of strengths to complete, so none of the characters were ever sidelined

I try to make sure my scenarios are diverse; i always have at least one social encounter, wilderness travel (for the hunters), a "dungeon" for adventuring/thief skills, and combat for the warriors and healers.

Thing is, theres not much i imagined the Waha shining, since i thought they had no exclusive skills or spells or area of expertise. The problem was my campaign style, which does require something else that what waha offers.

My players are: unicorn tribe yelornan (who has peaceful cut), healer of arroin from pavis (with an NPC lanbril bodyguard), (almost)sword of humakt, lhankor mhy initiate (from a MMA sub-cult!), and daka fal high llama vegan shaman. I felt like waha didnt offer much to this setup, and if instead of a new player someone died and went waha, would feel... Downgraded.

10 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

and even an Issaries initiate can be a useful spellcaster in combat and when you got your staff parry up and had some Crush going, you could occupy a bad guy until one of the combat monsters got around to them. Game balance in RQG is all about the GM adapting to the players that they have as opposed to making everyone equal.

even? EVEN? What??? Issaries is like... Super good? Like one of the best gods, comparable to like Orlanth? Issaries crush at social stuff, people seem to really enjoy playing them, and they can do any other role they want because basically your spell list is limited by your imagination (and POW budget)!

Like you, who casually had one of the best spells in the game going... Stack enough and you are better than a humakti lol XD. And as you already know you could heal body, or resurrect, or axe trance, or teleport, or madness, or whatever you could get your hands on!!! PLUS, surely you were filthy rich -or at least the richest one in your group-

In my campaign i make my players go Herald Goodword, who is even more adventuring ("you dont have to deal with carrying lots of stuff!!!" always seals the deal) because they are poorer and don't wreck my games as much =D

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Wait, you think Yelmalio is a good god for combat characters?!

Yeah, i had no problems tweaking them a bit and they are golden:

They use the pike (2d6+1), only other people youll see at my games using pikes are agimori. Just this makes them attractive for player characters, you do a ton of damage, and you have gift & geas! 

When fighting in phallanx and a templar is hurt they dont attack, but switch places with the guy behind instead (as seen in the roman legionaries vs gannicus in spartacus finale). Then the light priest (that they should always bring) can heal them! Also they are all initiates you know... They can totally defeat even agimori, "the best gloranthan infantry" and make mincemeat out of nomads. Yelmalions are FEARED!

Also they have cavalry. I made kuschile archery a talent (like in pulp chtulhu) so you just have it and are not limited by ride% anymore.

Last but not least, i gave access to sunspear to runelord + priest (aka any runelord with 18 POW). All these tweaks made the cult very competitive (but i use RQ2 access to battle magic & standard rune, the spell lists are only for starting characters)

Oh, also they are the only ones starting with plate greaves, helmet and (if they can carry it) chest.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Waha worshiper was my first character ever, I played him for many years. He also joined Storm Bull later in the game. Skill wise he was in the 100 - 150% range in main skills and 80 - 100% in most of the secondary skills. I never viewed him as a "low tier god". We did a lot of fighting in and around Pavis and the Big Rubble against the Lunars and Chaos. The party was a mixture of Lightbringers, but no Orlanthi or Ylmalios (those was considered a wuss cult, LOL

Oh nice, a true rune lord!!! =D 

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Ok RQG. Waha gets all common divine, so that solves the issue with healing. His association with shamans makes all spirit magic accessable rather than just "cult spells". Sure, he does not compare well with a Humakt in one on one, but he does well agaist Chaos and other things.

Yeah, its a "me" problem. In my campaign everyone has access to all spirit spells and standard rune magic (which is from RQ2, not G). So waha's lose the edge they had!

Edited May 14, 2022 by icebrand

[MOB]

On 5/13/2022 at 7:39 AM, David Scott said:

If you are going to play a Waste based game, Waha is a must. Outside of Prax, he's the god of butchers.

Way back in 1980, when I first got my hands on Cults of Prax and saw there was a cult whose god was evocatively named Waha the Butcher, teenage me thought "Wow, cool!" Then I read the cult...

[MOB]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Wait, you think Yelmalio is a good god for combat characters?!

No, I think Yelmalio is an awesome cult for combat characters.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

In my campaign everyone has access to all spirit spells

Not Yelmalio. They made sure that cult s#ck%d and in terms of combat. They only thing its good for is standing there and taking a beating.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Yeah, its a "me" problem. In my campaign everyone has access to all spirit spells and standard rune magic (which is from RQ2, not G). So waha's lose the edge they had!

Which is fine if you want to do that in your campaign. But at this point, you are talking about your own very idiosyncratic versions of the cults, which means this conversion is likely to just spin round and round in circles.

Personally, I find all the player character Cults intriguing and interesting, and very playable. I have only one cult that I have no love for, but resisted Greg's suggestion of cutting it out entirely - and that's Thanatar. All the rest - from Aldrya to Zorak Zoran, Gorgorma to Uleria - all can be fun and interesting in the right campaign. 

[Godlearner]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

cutting it out entirely - and that's Thanatar. All the rest - from Aldrya to Zorak Zoran, Gorgorma to Uleria - all can be fun and interesting in the right campaign.

I do not truely see any Chaos cult (except Lunar ones) as player cults. Having said that, Thanatar is my favorate 🙂

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I do not truely see any Chaos cult (except Lunar ones) as player cults. Having said that, Thanatar is my favorate 🙂

Greg strongly disliked Thanatar (and almost NEVER incorporated the cult in anything he wrote after Cults of Terror). But Thanatar is there and present, although it is unlikely to make much of an appearance in stuff I write.

 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Greg strongly disliked Thanatar (and almost NEVER incorporated the cult in anything he wrote after Cults of Terror). But Thanatar is there and present, although it is unlikely to make much of an appearance in stuff I write.

Yeap, and that is why Holiday Dorastor - Temple of Heads was put out on JC 🙂

Holiday Dorastor: The Temple of Heads - Chaosium | Jonstown Compendium | DriveThruRPG.com

[Lordabdul]

48 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Greg strongly disliked Thanatar

What is it that Greg and yourself don't like about Thanatar?

16 hours ago, icebrand said:

Thing is, Waha adventurers kinda suck -no offense intended- at playing published adventures, hexcrawl and dungeon crawl. Thats pretty much all i run LOL.

Sure, Waha has a limitation on the Heal spell, but they can somewhat easily learn spirit magic from their associated cults, including many useful spells from Eirithia, Foundchild, and Storm Bull (among others), so their spirit magic should be pretty good.  I see however that you're allowing everybody to learn everything, in which case I don't know why you would keep the Heal 1 limitation? The thing about mostly only learning from associated cults is that it models the mythical relationships between gods... the Heal 1 limitation is also part of this modelling (as explained by Jeff in a previous message), so if you ignore one, you should ignore the other IMHO.

In terms of Rune Magic, Waha might look forgettable, but note that he's the only cult besides Daka Fal to provide Discorporation to simple initiates. The Summon Spirit of Law is also useful against Chaos -- it's not super powerful, but it's cheap (there's no Command spell follow-up required!)

Finally, remember that Waha has a shamanic path, and shamans are super awesome and powerful. And for those who become Rune Lords instead, there's the "Call Founder" spell which can be an absolute game changer, not just for clearing the dungeon's final boss but for actually changing the course of history for your tribe and for Prax as a whole! It's super super expensive, but I don't think any other cult has access to this much power without complicated heroquesting and stuff.

The other thing to consider, of course, is Waha's political position in the Praxian nomads. It might not matter if your group is murder-hoboing in Sartar or whatever, but in Prax this is as close to "nobility" as you might get, so the Waha player gets opportunities others might not.

[jajagappa]

16 hours ago, icebrand said:

You played a Waha hero. Why? When? For how long? What chargen did you use, how high %s did you get?

If you could buff Waha however you liked, what would you change, if anything?

What kind of campaign was it, and if it applies, were you aware waha was a low tier god?

I have a Waha initiate in a campaign right now.  RQG version of the classic Borderlands campaign.  Weapon skills without magics are ~80% - fine for that campaign - and he's a bison rider with Ride @85% so can take advantage of charge with his lance.  His 3 special Rune spells are Shield, Summon Gnome, and Summon Spirit of Law.  

And, no, I do not consider Waha "low tier".  He's the preeminent deity of the Wastelands and perfectly suited to it.

[icebrand]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Greg strongly disliked Thanatar (and almost NEVER incorporated the cult in anything he wrote after Cults of Terror). But Thanatar is there and present, although it is unlikely to make much of an appearance in stuff I write.

 

I deleted Thed. Shes just... NO.

My broos follow malia, and are extremely lecherous toward cattle beasts (they leave predatory animals alone unless they are specially devious and fearless).

They adress each other as bro(ooooo) and make dick jokes and all the time.

Intelligent beings get eaten if captured; my bro rarely if ever keep live intelligent captives unless persuaded to ransom. In any case a broo finds a human as attractive as a human finds a goat. 

I sincerely hope she doesnt ever get reprinted, i don't think theres a tasteful way to do her, and gives the game a bad name IMHO.

Edited May 14, 2022 by icebrand

[Darius West]

On 5/13/2022 at 6:14 AM, icebrand said:

Everyone laughs at yelmalio, but it seems to me that the sun domers run circles around WAHA.

I assume you mean  "worst" in terms of being able to wreak violence (from the way you are writing)? I mean Waha has it all over Issaries, Argan Argar and Pavis in terms of combat power.  Also Waha has Shamans, and that's a big deal.  

Edited May 14, 2022 by Darius West

[Rodney Dangerduck]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I mean Waha has it all over Issaries, Argan Argar and Pavis in terms of combat power.

This is meaningless.  Issaries, Argan Argar, and Pavis make absolutely no claim to be combat warrior cults.  They provide many other opportunities for PC role play and to let them "shine" in action and missions.

Waha and Yelmalio are presented as "traditional" male oriented warrior cults.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

I sincerely hope she doesnt ever get reprinted, i don't think theres a tasteful way to do her, and gives the game a bad name IMHO

.... yeah, and I think you are wrong. Thed, is what she is and is permanent part of the world. 

[icebrand]

33 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

.... yeah, and I think you are wrong. Thed, is what she is and is permanent part of the world. 

Id rather not touch certain topics, MGF and all that 

[Godlearner]

1 minute ago, icebrand said:

Id rather not touch certain topics, MGF and all that 

That is your choice, but no need to make it for others.

[MOB]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Not Yelmalio. They made sure that cult s#ck%d and in terms of combat. They only thing its good for is standing there and taking a beating.

Feature not a bug. Yelmalio wins by not losing.