Which is the *worst* cult?

[svensson]

@icebrand
If Waha doesn't work well for your campaign [and let's face it, NO set of rules survives contact with players OR referees intact], that's fine. Remind PCs not to play one. For me personally, I can't imagine playing a male Praxian Beast Rider without having some knowledge of Waha's cult. Every child is taught the Peaceful Cut and the Survival Covenant at the absolute minimum. It would be like a native Sartarite not knowing anything whatsoever about Orlanth, the cult and the culture are inextricable. You don't have to be an Initiate to be taught the basics.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, MOB said:

Feature not a bug. Yelmalio wins by not losing.

Yep. Yelmalio did his greatest deeds after he was stripped of most of his power, after most every other god was dead. And that was to not be extinguished. He remained, a Last Light in the Darkness, when everything else had gone.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

30 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yep. Yelmalio did his greatest deeds after he was stripped of most of his power, after most every other god was dead. And that was to not be extinguished. He remained, a Last Light in the Darkness, when everything else had gone.

True.  Hopefully the GoG book will reflect some of this.

[Eff]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This is meaningless.  Issaries, Argan Argar, and Pavis make absolutely no claim to be combat warrior cults.  They provide many other opportunities for PC role play and to let them "shine" in action and missions.

Waha and Yelmalio are presented as "traditional" male oriented warrior cults.

I think the main thing which makes Waha and Yelmalio feel weird is that Rune Magic is now significantly more available, because that's really where the biggest differences lie- when it comes to skills and spirit magic, these cults are distinct from Orlanth or Yelm, but not so different that they don't feel like a masculine warrior cult for you to go hollering and whooping and dancing like a bunch of khouretes in. But the Rune Magic is, of course, very distinct, but that feels less salient when Rune Magic is relatively rare or difficult to replenish, because then it feels more like having a key that might fit a lock to have Cloud Clear or Command Hawk as opposed to Thunderbolt or Slash.

But of course, with Rune Magic being relatively available, you start to imagine that it's part of daily life and then you perhaps start asking yourself questions about why the myths of the way of Waha don't translate into Rune Magic that is directly related to living according to the Survival Covenant.

Diagnosing the cause doesn't, alas, provide any way to rectify the effects.

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, icebrand said:

I sincerely hope she doesnt ever get reprinted, i don't think theres a tasteful way to do her, and gives the game a bad name IMHO.

Of note, the RQ3 cult write-up is quite different and significantly more problematic than the RQ2 one, which I find OK.

[Shiningbrow]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:21 AM, icebrand said:

Thing is, Waha adventurers kinda suck -no offense intended- at playing published adventures, hexcrawl and dungeon crawl. Thats pretty much all i run LOL.

 

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

and (Issaries initiates) can do any other role they want because basically your spell list is limited by your imagination (and POW budget)!

I'm seeing a pattern here...

You've already called yourself (and by extension,  your players) a powergamer, so realistically,  this thread is really only discussion about powergaming... not really about Waha and RQG.

(which was obvious as soon as the word  "tier" was used).

How many other GMs here would allow Issaries initiates to have access to any and every Rune Spell in the books ? (*sort of* forgetting /ignoring that they are limited by their own Rune Pool). I certainly wouldn't. Even associated cults would require some serious negotiations and really good reputation to get even a little bit of their special magics (with some being more generous than others).

Edited May 15, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

You've already called yourself (and by extension,  your players) a powergamer, so realistically,  this thread is really only discussion about powergaming... not really about Waha and RQG.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a powergamer. It is about using the rules imaginatively to squeeze the best outcome out of a situation. 

Someone can be a powergamer and also be a good roleplayer, the two are not mutually exclusive.

[Martin Dick]

19 hours ago, icebrand said:

Like you, who casually had one of the best spells in the game going... Stack enough and you are better than a humakti lol XD. And as you already know you could heal body, or resurrect, or axe trance, or teleport, or madness, or whatever you could get your hands on!!! PLUS, surely you were filthy rich -or at least the richest one in your group-

Sorry, Crush was a mistake, I meant Bludgeon, I never had Crush and of course in RQ3, getting Rune Magic as an initiate was very hard, so Spell Trading was never an option.

[Martin Dick]

19 hours ago, icebrand said:

even? EVEN? What??? Issaries is like... Super good? Like one of the best gods, comparable to like Orlanth? Issaries crush at social stuff, people seem to really enjoy playing them, and they can do any other role they want because basically your spell list is limited by your imagination (and POW budget)!

I never said Issaries wasn't a good cult to play, it's great IMO, which sort of makes sense that I think that given that I've played them a lot. But in terms of combat in RQ2 and RQ3 and being an initiate, they are mostly insignificant in combat, so in a combat-centric game that isn't at the Rune level, they would be pretty useless. Having never played an Issaries rune priest with Spell Trading, I'm not sure whether they would turn into much of a combat monster, but that POW budget limit is a pretty hard limit in my experience

[PhilHibbs]

5 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

... But in terms of combat in RQ2 and RQ3 and being an initiate, they are mostly insignificant in combat, so in a combat-centric game that isn't at the Rune level, they would be pretty useless.

Harmast kicks arse in combat, but then again he has ridiculously good stats (as do all the pregens). In my game he's building up an arsenal of traded rune spells.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a powergamer. It is about using the rules imaginatively to squeeze the best outcome out of a situation.

I'm not suggesting there was anything wrong with that.

It just changes the focus of the discussion from a generic "Waha is the worst" into (sort of) a more appropriate and accurate "Waha cultists are the crappiest murder-hobos" or similar.

Sort of like saying "ZZs are the absolute worst in social/face games".

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Someone can be a powergamer and also be a good roleplayer, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Yes - and no.

Depends on what type of game is being played a the table. If the GM and other players are playing that type of game, then it can work well. If not, then there's going to be friction.

[Martin Dick]

11 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Harmast kicks arse in combat, but then again he has ridiculously good stats (as do all the pregens)

I'd never really looked closely at him, but you are not wrong! A starting character with 100% Broadsword, 80% Medium shield, 1D4 damage bonus and wearing plate armour, that's pretty damn special. Give him some Bladesharp and Protection and he's basically a weaponthane. He's even up there in terms of spirit combat. Add in some judicious spell trading and you're hot to trot against the Big Bad.

But, I don't really think that he's typical of an Issaries initiate, most of them aren't duellists

[icebrand]

24 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

It just changes the focus of the discussion from a generic "Waha is the worst" into (sort of) a more appropriate and accurate "Waha cultists are the crappiest murder-hobos" or similar.

Noone here is a murder hobo.

Waha has the worst tools of them all if you want to play published adventures.

26 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yes - and no.

Depends on what type of game is being played a the table. If the GM and other players are playing that type of game, then it can work well. If not, then there's going to be friction.

Oh man, having your gameplay judged by people who never saw you feels sooo good!! (/S)

[PhilHibbs]

55 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Waha has the worst tools of them all if you want to play published adventures.

And yet Vishi Dunn has contributed by far the most to resolving all five of the published scenarios that I’ve run, plus the additional encounters that I’ve thrown in, be they spiritual, social, or combat.

[soltakss]

Quote

Which is the *worst* cult? (Its WAHA)

Eiritha has worse combat spells, all about animals and elementals. They can't use most of the good combat Spirit Magic spells either. They get Shield from Storm Bull and a lot of healing magic.

Engizi has some watery spells, but they are not much use away from the water.

Lhankor Mhy gets no useful spells, just things about knowledge and stuff.

Storm Bull gets spells useful against Chaos, but are pretty useless when not fighting Chaos, except they can get a bit angry.

Yinkin can turn its hands into claws, which do less damage than weapons. It can also smell where other cultists have urinated, which is the best use of Identify Scent. Two of its associate cults don't grant it any spells, but allow cultists to take part in their Great Hunt. 

 

 

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, icebrand said:

Noone here is a murder hobo.

Waha has the worst tools of them all if you want to play published adventures.

Oh man, having your gameplay judged by people who never saw you feels sooo good!! (/S)

One might say that is exactly what you are doing here.

[icebrand]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

One might say that is exactly what you are doing here.

I'm sorry i don't understand what you mean

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

And yet Vishi Dunn has contributed by far the most to resolving all five of the published scenarios that I’ve run,

O.K.  What are some examples of things that Vishi has Dunn (haha), as a Waha Initiate, that contributed to resolving the scenarios?

If his contributions have largely been as a shaman, or through Cousin Monkey, they don't really count, as they don't tie into Waha.

I like the idea presented in this thread that Waha is a good lead in cult for PC to become a Shaman.  But that's pretty PC-ish - clearly not every Waha initiate becomes a shaman.

[Jeff]

28 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

O.K.  What are some examples of things that Vishi has Dunn (haha), as a Waha Initiate, that contributed to resolving the scenarios?

If his contributions have largely been as a shaman, or through Cousin Monkey, they don't really count, as they don't tie into Waha.

I like the idea presented in this thread that Waha is a good lead in cult for PC to become a Shaman.  But that's pretty PC-ish - clearly not every Waha initiate becomes a shaman.

Shamanism is a big part of the Waha cult, so of course that counts.

[g33k]

20 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yep. Yelmalio did his greatest deeds after he was stripped of most of his power, after most every other god was dead. And that was to not be extinguished. He remained, a Last Light in the Darkness, when everything else had gone.

Any chance this would be mechanically-reflected, e.g. in Yelmalio's spells of Light being uniquely extra-resistant to Darkness and/or being extinguished?

 

[Jeff]

Just now, g33k said:

Any chance this would be mechanically-reflected, e.g. in Yelmalio's spells of Light being uniquely extra-resistant to Darkness and/or being extinguished?

 

That is Sunbright. An awesomely powerful spell against the Darkness and the things of the Greater Darkness.

[icebrand]

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Shamanism is a big part of the Waha cult, so of course that counts.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify my (dumb) questions Jeff, you are the very best!!!

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

O.K.  What are some examples of things that Vishi has Dunn (haha), as a Waha Initiate, that contributed to resolving the scenarios?

If his contributions have largely been as a shaman ... they don't really count, as they don't tie into Waha ...

Except shamanism does tie in to Waha!
Quoting the RQG core book (p.306):

Quote

The Waha cult has shamans instead of Rune Priests.
Any Waha initiate who becomes a shaman qualifies for this status.

That is to say, the "initiates" -- if they are in any way "on a path toward" being Rune Priests -- are all Assistant Shamans.

It's how the Cult of Waha operates.

If you don't count Vishi's  shamanism, you shouldn't count the rune-magic of a Priest/Priestess path character, either.
 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

If you don't count Vishi's  shamanism, you shouldn't count the rune-magic of a Priest/Priestess path character, either

A shaman, especially a PC shaman who breaks the usual rules like PCs do, can come from most any cult.  I agree that shaman are very effective PCs.  Claiming that Waha is a fine effective PC cult because it's members can be shamans is almost meaningless.  Would one claim that Humakt is a "good knowledge cult" because it's members can also join LM?

Our party has a Eurmal shaman.  He's super effective because he can do those awesome shamany things.  And, in addition, he can Lie, Crack, and go Invisible!

[Akhôrahil]

I’m not confident here, but don’t you typically require a shaman-supporting cult to become a shaman? Even if it’s just an ”implicit” cult, like Horned Man? In this case, Waha does support this, in ways most cult’s don’t, seeing how Waha includes a shaman path?