Which is the *worst* cult?

[French Desperate WindChild]

seems to me that GM are able to  change things

if the fighters in the published scenario have skills at 90% and rune pool at 5 and the GM knows (or just thinks, players may propose alternative) the pc are not enough powerful... she can

1) reduce the skills and magics to give a reasonable chance of success

2) add some npc to help during the fight, propose the less "warrior pc" to play this npc

3) not play the scenario, choose another one if she thinks the opposition should be at the right level (if the big boss is a runelord, of course there are lot of RP and skill>100% so it may be not the right time to play this)

 

and same if pc are too powerfull, add % or even number of ennemies.  Players must find solutions during the play, so does GM during the preparation.

 

And same, a GM may try to create her own scenario (if no published scenario gives it) to offer opportunity to any pc to shine at least one time in the campaign.

There are so many ways to propose a good campaign for an initiate (and no shaman) of  Waha.

Same for Yelmalio. Or anyone. Discussing with players helps too. They may have some idea about their characters, after all, why the player choose a cult? was it random, or because he had some idea ? This idea is a source of scenario (from scrach or adapting a published one).

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, EpicureanDM said:

Right, so let's not confuse a fictional deity's purported achievements written using a word processor with what a PC might expect to achieve using the game's rules and dice. I can quote Yelmalian scripture about how their Templars achieved outsized success using their famous phalanx tactics against magically and numerically superior foes. That's useless to a PC Yelmalian who's in a party with three other non-Yelmalian characters, none of whom is trained in formation fighting. 

Why are you fighting alongside with untrained militia? Why haven't you trained them? Is there some reason why a trained linesman is fighting outside their file mates? I'm sure there is a reason why they are doing something far outside of their temple and cult strengths - which makes it a good story and a good source of adventure. 

 

[EpicureanDM]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Why are you fighting alongside with untrained militia? Why haven't you trained them? Is there some reason why a trained linesman is fighting outside their file mates? I'm sure there is a reason why they are doing something far outside of their temple and cult strengths - which makes it a good story and a good source of adventure. 

 

My PC Yelmalian is fighting alongside untrained militia because the "untrained militia" are the other players around the table whom I couldn't convince to bend their own character choices around optimizing my formation-loving Yelmalian PC. I haven't trained them because my friend's Praxian shaman character concept doesn't also include learning how to use the pike next to my Yelmalian in a shield wall. My PC Yelmalian is fighting outside their file mates because I didn't know that the game's designers expect that my character requires an entourage of dozens of NPC henchmen to match the fictional puissance of the Yelmalian Templar. 

It's like you've never played a roleplaying game before.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, EpicureanDM said:

My PC Yelmalian is fighting alongside untrained militia because the "untrained militia" are the other players around the table whom I couldn't convince to bend their own character choices around optimizing my formation-loving Yelmalian PC. I haven't trained them because my friend's Praxian shaman character concept doesn't also include learning how to use the pike next to my Yelmalian in a shield wall. My PC Yelmalian is fighting outside their file mates because I didn't know that the game's designers expect that my character requires an entourage of dozens of NPC henchmen to match the fictional puissance of the Yelmalian Templar. 

It's like you've never played a roleplaying game before.

Clearly not.

[Dogboy]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Clearly not.

OK, so, trying not to be such a dick about this, I do see EpicureanDMs point. Traditionally (i.e.RQI&II) Yelmalio was painted as an adventurer cult. A lot of his mythology can be seen as "a plucky god, goes it alone, and in his adversity, he shines". Rurik, in all those examples, isn't part of a militia. He is part of a band*.
It was only with MOBs' Sun County (RQIII), that a lot of folks realised that Yelmalios real lesson was "if you go it alone, expect to get the sh*t kicked out of you!". His cult was given context, and  it was portrayed as a cultural cult.
Every game since then, despite pushing cultural play, portrays a rag-tag group of disparate adventurers, be that HQG or RQG.
Looking at RQG, he is again depicted as an adventurers cult, and it it can be inferred that players can come from multiple cultures, and join together as a band. it does undermine the whole militia conceit.

That said, in my own game, we have a sole Yelmalion, and he seems pretty happy in that he is a sole believer amongst a bunch of mangy Orlanthi.

*He also dies a terrible end because he wasn't part of a militia, which is hilarious.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Dogboy

[French Desperate WindChild]

but when you create a Yelmalio adventurer, you know what are the spells available. You know what are the benefits and the weakness  compared to other cults. And your GM is here to to warn you.

That is not "Yelmalio is the god of sun/light without fire warriors", that is "Yelmalio is the god of sun/light without fire warriors and this is the magic provided"

 

that's what I don't understand with experienced roleplayers (I understand a new player did not understand it, but in all case a new player will do some mistakes, that's part of the learning process.

Where in any rulebook, there is something hidden about the weakness of Yelmalio. That is not like few years ago (rqg core rules book) Yelmalio was awesome, and now (hihi) with the cults of glorantha book, Yelmalio is just ridiculous.

 

And, after all, if you want more powers for Yelmalio, if you don't want to play your character "as is", add more powers, and that's fine for you. a little quest, and now you have flamesword, for any reason you are an exception in the cult. Holy man for some, traitor for others, some hook for scenario.

Or another option, see with your gm if you cannot gain a magical spear, dealing more dammages on people with darkness rune > 30% for example. Then you are still canon with the cult, and you have about the same power than the other players (if it is so different on your table).

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Dogboy said:

OK, so, trying not to be such a dick about this, I do see EpicureanDMs point. Traditionally (i.e.RQI&II) Yelmalio was painted as an adventurer cult. A lot of his mythology can be seen as "a plucky god, goes it alone, and in his adversity, he shines". Rurik, in all those examples, isn't part of a militia. He is part of a band*.
It was only with MOBs' Sun County (RQIII), that a lot of folks realised that Yelmalios real lesson was "if you go it alone, expect to get the sh*t kicked out of you!". His cult was given context, and  it was portrayed as a cultural cult.
Every game since then, despite pushing cultural play, portrays a rag-tag group of disparate adventurers, be that HQG or RQG.
Looking at RQG, he is again depicted as an adventurers cult, and it it can be inferred that players can come from multiple cultures, and join together as a band. it does undermine the whole militia conceit.

That said, in my own game, we have a sole Yelmalion, and he seems pretty happy in that he is a sole believer amongst a bunch of mangy Orlanthi.

*He also dies a terrible end because he wasn't part of a militia, which is hilarious.

He is a fine adventurers cult - as are any of the cults in RQG. But Yelmalio was never a good power-gamer adventurers cult (arguably none really are). In RQ2, he was best for fighting trolls and very useful in the Big Rubble (all those light spells such as Light, Lightwall, and Lantern are incredibly useful in underground ruins!). Sunbright and Catseye are incredible spells - Sunbright gets rid of trollkin and cave trolls, Catseye puts you on an even platform with trolls in darkness. Throw in Detect Gold and you have a cult tailor made for adventuring in the Big Rubble.

But Yelmalio's myths aren't about exploring the Big Rubble - they are about surviving as the Last Light in Darkness. And his cult survives by fighting together as a trained pike and shield force (which doesn't require a lot of specialised magic). 

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

they are about surviving as the Last Light in Darkness. And his cult survives by fighting together as a trained pike and shield force (which doesn't require a lot of specialised magic). 

an idea, if not a runespell (or why not a personal one), it could be nice to have an heroic spell after the hill of gold : "last survivor"

 

Personal,

Once incapacited, or even dead during a battle, if there is at least one ally still fighting, you stand and continue to fight as usual. People or even yourself are able to heal you

If the only allies still fighting are all under the "last survivor" effect, the spell ends.

 

maybe too powerful, however

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

an idea, if not a runespell (or why not a personal one), it could be nice to have an heroic spell after the hill of gold : "last survivor"

 

Personal,

Once incapacited, or even dead during a battle, if there is at least one ally still fighting, you stand and continue to fight as usual. People or even yourself are able to heal you

If the only allies still fighting are all under the "last survivor" effect, the spell ends.

 

maybe too powerful, however

But why make that a Rune spell?

Advice Greg gave me in editing Cults material - if there is something a player wants to get out of a cult that seems beyond the social/magical ecological role of the cult, let them heroquest for it and gain it as a personal boon, IF they are able to experience and survive this on the Hero Plane. Don't make it a default spell or even a special subcult. And if it is really cool, don't let it be a common heroquest!

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

But why make that a Rune spell?

two answers :

1) because discussing about poor yelmalio is boring me 😛

2) it seems to me to fit with the main god role : the last hope

 

but as I m following desperatly the "canon", I call it a heroic spell (or the key word the more appropriate for heroquest benefit)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

And his cult survives by fighting together

In RQ2, a Yelmalio Light Son got 3 personal followers.  Our small playing group used them, plus occasional Aldryami PCs, to make an effective group that fought together.  Lots of fun, and good roleplaying, not unlike Starnia Stormrenders group in Griffin Mt.  We were organized and whupped lots of trolls and blowhard Orlanthi.  Frankly, the trolls were much tougher!  (Without all the rune magic Orlanthi are nothing special)

When / why were the 3 followers removed?  It's a good way to fit into your concept of how the cult survives.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

if there is something a player wants to get out of a cult that seems beyond the social/magical ecological role of the cult, let them heroquest for it and gain it as a personal boon

Interesting... how would you determine whether a particular aspect or achievement of a god goes into a "standard" cult Rune Spell, or is left as an exercise to the devoted initiate/player? Why does, say, Orlanth get Dark Walk but not Tame Waters or whatever?

Of course, one can easily consider that acquiring a new Rune Spell is, indeed, heroquesting a particular god's myth for a related personal boon. The difference is that a "standard" cult Rune Spell demands the applicant to heroquest along very well-known myths, so it's mechanically abstracted as a simple time jump and POW sacrifice. Maybe the Yelmalio cult has several such spells that they don't want to teach, not even to their members, because they want all initiates to "find their own light" or whatever. It's easy to find an in-world explanation one way or another, but I'm more interested in the game design process here.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Ludovic aka Lordabdul

[dumuzid]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

But why make that a Rune spell?

Because each Rune spell is supposed to be a reification or incarnation of a God Time event, and Yelmalio sticking it out past all hope is a core mythic event for him.  Same reason he has Sunbright and Catseye.  He's got good magic for Light, you'd figure he would have good magic for Last too.

[icebrand]

3 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Because each Rune spell is supposed to be a reification or incarnation of a God Time event, and Yelmalio sticking it out past all hope is a core mythic event for him.  Same reason he has Sunbright and Catseye.  He's got good magic for Light, you'd figure he would have good magic for Last too.

Just give him shield and call it a day?

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

But why make that a Rune spell?

Advice Greg gave me in editing Cults material - if there is something a player wants to get out of a cult that seems beyond the social/magical ecological role of the cult, let them heroquest for it and gain it as a personal boon, IF they are able to experience and survive this on the Hero Plane. Don't make it a default spell or even a special subcult. And if it is really cool, don't let it be a common heroquest!

Because there  are no rules  for heroquesting, or hq-rewards...?  (but there are rules for Rune spells!)

whissshcrack!  Back to the mines with you, slavey!  Hit that keyboard!  Process those words!  😉

Edited May 17, 2022 by g33k
rules? we don' need no steenkin' rules!

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Just give him shield and call it a day?

From a rules perspective, the upcoming Shield spell is all that’s required to make Yelmalio a passable cult for warriors. Right now though, you get more martial magic out of Ernalda (which is admittedly hilarious).

[icebrand]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

From a rules perspective, the upcoming Shield spell is all that’s required to make Yelmalio a passable cult for warriors. Right now though, you get more martial magic out of Ernalda (which is admittedly hilarious).

But you get to use a pike!!!

2d6+1 > 1h weapon with some magic

[Jeff]

35 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Because each Rune spell is supposed to be a reification or incarnation of a God Time event, and Yelmalio sticking it out past all hope is a core mythic event for him.  Same reason he has Sunbright and Catseye.  He's got good magic for Light, you'd figure he would have good magic for Last too.

Yelmalio sticked it out by not letting his light be extinguished - not because of some inherent stick-it-out-ness. Same thing with Orlanth in the Lightbringers Quest - he made his way through the Underworld despite having no magic to facilitate this and reconciled with Yelm despite having no reconcile with guy you killed magic in order to save the cosmos despite having no save the cosmos magic.

The gods' Rune magic reflects their inherent nature and attributes. So Orlanth is a Thunder God, Adventurer and King, so has magic that reflects that. Yelmalio is the God of Light, and has magic that reflects that. Yelmalio is an important cult because despite being the God of Light, he did not go out despite the Greater Darkness. Maybe his Sunbright spell had a lot of Extension?

[Eff]

The main benefit of the Yelmalio cult is that it's very easy to, once you abandon the joke about how awesome Yelmalio's prowess with arms is, explain the kind of functionality a Yelmalio cultist provides in a mixed party. Yelmalio's job is to be Sam Eagle, or Inspector Zenigata. Uptight, upright, and up a creek without a paddle. In way over your head. But every so often, you get those moments where, after all the beatings and curb-tastings and wallopings and shellackings and whoopings, you get some lucky rolls at precisely the right moment and you've done it, you've climbed the Hill of Gold, "Break My Stride" is playing on the soundtrack- and then you can bask in it before the next pie hits you in the face. 

But there are plenty of people willing to play that kind of character, so Yelmalio works pretty well. 

[Lordabdul]

50 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio sticked it out by not letting his light be extinguished - not because of some inherent stick-it-out-ness. Same thing with Orlanth in the Lightbringers Quest - he made his way through the Underworld despite having no magic to facilitate this and reconciled with Yelm despite having no reconcile with guy you killed magic in order to save the cosmos despite having no save the cosmos magic.

That makes sense, thanks!

Edited May 17, 2022 by Ludovic aka Lordabdul

[dumuzid]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The gods' Rune magic reflects their inherent nature and attributes.

The second paragraph of the Rune Magic chapter of the core rules, p. 313 says, "When an adventurer casts Rune magic, the caster acts as the deity. The caster imitates the deeds of the deity and thereby magically partakes of the deity’s power." Emphasis mine.  My understanding was that this has been the case going back to Greg and Arcane Lore.  If you've decided to revise that interpretation, fair enough, but I'm trying to go by what's in the books currently available to the public.  The 'inherent nature and attributes' of a Gloranthan god can vary pretty wildly depending on which stage of their mythology you're looking at, the obvious example being Yelmalio before and after the Hill of Gold.

48 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Same thing with Orlanth in the Lightbringers Quest - he made his way through the Underworld despite having no magic to facilitate this and reconciled with Yelm despite having no reconcile with guy you killed magic in order to save the cosmos despite having no save the cosmos magic.

Your examples are mixing up the cause and effect.  Orlanth didn't reconcile with Yelm through 'reconcile with those you've wronged' magic, he accomplished the deed of reconciling with Yelm, creating a mythic event for his followers within Time to emulate and draw power from.  There probably should be some sort of specific power for elemental reconciliation available to Orlanth worshipers, at least within a particular subcult (Orlanth Repentant?), which may have been lost to the cult within Time.  Beyond something specific, the Rune magic made available to Orlanth's worshipers by the several interconnected mythic events of the LBQ must surely be embodied in some of the selections from his Lightbringers associate cult spells?  Chalana Arroy's Restore Health, for instance.

Yelmalio accomplished the deed of Guarding the Stead/Sleeping Forests/etc.  Per the core book, this deed should create a mythic event that mortal followers of Yelmalio can draw upon for power in reproducing the deed within Time.  You could argue that this is covered by worshipers gaining individual access to special magic from heroquesting, and I'd answer that 'enduring as the last light' is at least as essential to Third Age, Central Genertelan Yelmalions' understanding of their god as, say, Orlanth's deed of winning the Thunderbolt back from Shargash is for Orlanthi.  On that basis the events are equally worthy of reification in a Rune spell.

20 minutes ago, Jeff said:

So Orlanth is a Thunder God, Adventurer and King, so has magic that reflects that. Yelmalio is the God of Light, and has magic that reflects that.

Yelmalio is a Solar God, Yelm's Heart of Justice and the Last Light.  He has Rune magic that reflects one of these qualities,  geases that reflect another, not much for the third.

41 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio sticked it out by not letting his light be extinguished - not because of some inherent stick-it-out-ness.

Yelmalio's qualities of perseverance and honor allowed him to carry on when all hope seemed lost.  Those are his inherent stick-it-out-ness.  That's the 'inherent nature and attribute' of him that could be the basis of a Rune spell related to the event.  The same as Storm Bull's rage, in many battles but especially the Eternal Battle, is the basis for his mortal worshipers' Berserk spell.

[Eff]

10 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

The second paragraph of the Rune Magic chapter of the core rules, p. 313 says, "When an adventurer casts Rune magic, the caster acts as the deity. The caster imitates the deeds of the deity and thereby magically partakes of the deity’s power." Emphasis mine.  My understanding was that this has been the case going back to Greg and Arcane Lore.  If you've decided to revise that interpretation, fair enough, but I'm trying to go by what's in the books currently available to the public.  The 'inherent nature and attributes' of a Gloranthan god can vary pretty wildly depending on which stage of their mythology you're looking at, the obvious example being Yelmalio before and after the Hill of Gold.

Your examples are mixing up the cause and effect.  Orlanth didn't reconcile with Yelm through 'reconcile with those you've wronged' magic, he accomplished the deed of reconciling with Yelm, creating a mythic event for his followers within Time to emulate and draw power from.  There probably should be some sort of specific power for elemental reconciliation available to Orlanth worshipers, at least within a particular subcult (Orlanth Repentant?), which may have been lost to the cult within Time.  Beyond something specific, the Rune magic made available to Orlanth's worshipers by the several interconnected mythic events of the LBQ must surely be embodied in some of the selections from his Lightbringers associate cult spells?  Chalana Arroy's Restore Health, for instance.

Yelmalio accomplished the deed of Guarding the Stead/Sleeping Forests/etc.  Per the core book, this deed should create a mythic event that mortal followers of Yelmalio can draw upon for power in reproducing the deed within Time.  You could argue that this is covered by worshipers gaining individual access to special magic from heroquesting, and I'd answer that 'enduring as the last light' is at least as essential to Third Age, Central Genertelan Yelmalions' understanding of their god as, say, Orlanth's deed of winning the Thunderbolt back from Shargash is for Orlanthi.  On that basis the events are equally worthy of reification in a Rune spell.

Yelmalio is a Solar God, Yelm's Heart of Justice and the Last Light.  He has Rune magic that reflects one of these qualities,  geases that reflect another, not much for the third.

Yelmalio's qualities of perseverance and honor allowed him to carry on when all hope seemed lost.  Those are his inherent stick-it-out-ness.  That's the 'inherent nature and attribute' of him that could be the basis of a Rune spell related to the event.  The same as Storm Bull's rage, in many battles but especially the Eternal Battle, is the basis for his mortal worshipers' Berserk spell.

I think the biggest example for me is the Four Elemental Weapons Orlanth has. Perhaps you can reconfigure whatever Jungian archetypes to make it so that the one that Orlanth is always has weapons from four of the five other elements that exist in the world but never the last one, but it's a deeply twisty framework compared to saying "You can cast Dark Walk because Orlanth performed a cosmogonic act in acquiring the Sandals of Darkness and making them his own." 

[Dr. Devici]

24 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

The second paragraph of the Rune Magic chapter of the core rules, p. 313 says, "When an adventurer casts Rune magic, the caster acts as the deity. The caster imitates the deeds of the deity and thereby magically partakes of the deity’s power."

This interpretation is why I've been scratching my head wondering why Yelmalio doesn't have the morale spell. Yelmalio didn't just survive the Darkness, he made friends and settled feuds by being the guiding light for everyone battling the Darkness. Having morale available to Light Sons seems like a proper mythic representation of Yelmalio the leader.

That now makes a lot more sense if we're taking the interpretation of rune magic being archetypal, but then there's a whole new set of head scratchers, as @Eff noted above.

[Runeblogger]

What's a fitting boon if your Yelmalio character survives the Hill of Gold heroquest?

[icebrand]

13 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

What's a fitting boon if your Yelmalio character survives the Hill of Gold heroquest?

Sunspear, Shield, Bladesharp, Protection, Re-roll into an actually useful cult... The possibilities are *ENDLESS*!!! 😂😂😂