Is there a limit to the PC's involvement in the Hero Wars? (Was 'high level opponents')

[icebrand]

44 minutes ago, soltakss said:

People say this, but I don't understand.

Personally, I find Strike Ranks intuitive and very easy to follow.

The only bit I don't like is the big/fast Adventurer with a long weapon acting on SR 1 and then not doing anything for the rest of the round. That is the only unsatisfying part, for me. The rest is OK.

Let me explain what i use:

You act on your DEX

-5 prepare weapon/arrow/spell

0 to -4 for melee (weapon SR)

-MP spent on spell

-1 / MOV, up to 4 -i allow full MOV but it's different to raw-

I think thats it? Yeah, it doesnt take siz in account. I considered having a "melee SR" which would be DEX -(siz sr) but it's not worth the completity to me. I dont like siz sr that much either... 

It produces exactly the same results as standard sr (or close enough) and it's waaaaay easier to use & explain (at least for me).

[Baron Wulfraed]

59 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Let me explain what i use:

You act on your DEX

Which means what, exactly? Ignore all your modifiers for the moment and just state when a character with a DEX of 12 acts vs one with a DEX of 18?

59 minutes ago, icebrand said:

-5 prepare weapon/arrow/spell

0 to -4 for melee (weapon SR)

-MP spent on spell

-1 / MOV, up to 4 -i allow full MOV but it's different to raw-

The only way I can make sense of all this is that you are using "highest /modified/ DEX" acts first, and go down from there.

This seems more complex to me than starting with a base SR0 and adding modifiers based upon DEX/SIZE et al. since there is no mental inversion needed -- higher results are "slower".
 

[icebrand]

Just now, Baron Wulfraed said:

Which means what, exactly? Ignore all your modifiers for the moment and just state when a character with a DEX of 12 acts vs one with a DEX of 18?

The only way I can make sense of all this is that you are using "highest /modified/ DEX" acts first, and go down from there.

This seems more complex to me than starting with a base SR0 and adding modifiers based upon DEX/SIZE et al. since there is no mental inversion needed -- higher results are "slower".
 

It's the BRP 4e rule with weapon sr added in...

[JRE]

15 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

As far as game design goes, RQG is essentially RQ2 with a little Pendragon/Stormbringer bolted onto it at an obvious angle. If you remember your history, RQ2’s main competitor when it was first released was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, i.e. AD&D 1e. So in The Year of Our Lord 2018, Chaosium decided to essentially reprint a game designed in 1979 with better art.

Maybe it is my age and that of the people I game with, but the rules system does not really matter much to me anymore, except in those parts that really interact with the setting, which for me in this case are Runes and the Magic System(s). The rest is a simulation, and we will change whatever we do not like.

We have have been playing Heroquests since the 90s, and I will not wait for a rulebook to keep playing. The big change, and that was intellectual and not mechanistic, came with King of Dragon Pass, changing from an abstract set of challenges to a story with several inflection points.

So I will check the rules Chaosium brings, and discuss them with the players, and decide. As we have done with all the other components of the rules.

Right now our big debate is how much of WFRP4 to adapt for combat resolution, and that is a slight modification from a 1989 game as well. I suppose it shows our age.

We have explored Glorantha through RQ, MRQ, GURPS, BRP, and a failed attempt with HW, and that kept us also from HQG, so we will probably not use a HQG analogue. But it is ok, we are grown ups, at least one of us will buy them, and I am sure Chaosium makes much more money from middle aged people with nostalgia (and disposable income) than from new players with access to Trove-like sites and little concern about IP piracy. And I at least would like for Chaosium to be financially healthy and good JC writers to make enough to continue creating content.

[EpicureanDM]

3 hours ago, JRE said:

Maybe it is my age and that of the people I game with, but the rules system does not really matter much to me anymore, except in those parts that really interact with the setting, which for me in this case are Runes and the Magic System(s). The rest is a simulation, and we will change whatever we do not like.

It's great that you're redesigning RQG into the game you want to play, but this thread seems predicated on the OP's interest in what game the publisher's going to design.

[Wheel Shield]

@EpicureanDM I came with a question and demanded an answer. I received an answer. I then had a choice to accept it or not. I chose to accept it.

Had I not chosen to accept it, I would have been free to stay or leave, but let me stress this-there's no crusade or fight to be had here. They've published the Core Game. They're not going to rewrite it again. There wasn't a lot wrong with it other than heroquesting was missing. I mean the question was 'can the PCs participate in the Hero Wars?' And the answer was. 'Yes, but that will involve heroquesting and engaging the conflict on a different mythic level.' I accepted the answer.

As a former Call of Cthulhu fan, I know that game has never changed all that much between editions. The original core system was solid. It doesn't surprise me that RQ4 doesn't re-invent all four wheels. I probably sound like I'm contradicting myself but I was bothered that RQ3 stopped... that they never took the next step to heroquesting.

There's a lot of binary thinking and pendulum swinging of perspectives going on here. The conservative players do (unfortunately) have a tendency to jump to a conclusion that someone wanting to walk the path of Heroes must be some power wanker who is overcompensating for a poor self-image in real life. BUT! I don't know how many people with munchkin tendencies they've had to listen to or put up with prior to me taking a renewed interest in RQ. I don't like munchkins myself. I can only say that there is a middle ground; and actually for me what that middle ground looks like is Runequest Glorantha with rules for heroquesting (and maybe illumination?). Mr. Richard has said in so many words, "We got you covered. It's in the pipeline." Chaosium has been rebuilding it's credibility on delivering for RQ so it behooves me to be patient. I was introduced to RQ as a 13 year old boy around 1980. I remember being really pissed off about the lack of heroquesting rules in 1996. Now it's 2022 and they're actively publishing brand new books. I can confidently say I can hang on to 2023. I really believe they're almost done with Cults of Glorantha, that the Sartar Gazeteer/Box/Book is closing to a finish, and that the Game Master Book won't be far behind that.

But release schedules is not something you're talking about. You are suggesting that I won't like the heroquest rules that they will provide. Because I said I didn't care for HQG? I do struggle with it but it could be resolved with editing? It's dense like Grandma's fruitcake. I've also played Amber for decades. I've run Blades in the Dark. I've played Mutants and Masterminds. I'm reading City of Mist right now (along with the RQ Starter Set Book 1 PDF). I run a weekly Pathfinder 2E campaign (I was running on Foundry last night). I've written a ton of Pathfinder content for Paizo, not as a 3PP. You're jumping to the same conclusions as the people you call conservative. I do both simulationist and narrative gaming pretty effortlessly. I guess I'm Gaming Illuminated.

I wrote the paragraph above because you've suggested I might not like Andrew Logan Montgomery's contribution to the heroquest rules. I don't know that to be true. I have looked through Six Seasons in Sartar and I'm seeing a quality product, and it's a RQG product with RQG Stat Blocks. I've been reading his blog and he seems smart, creative, and sensible. I'm not trying to suck up to him but I am telling you that I'm not seeing any red flags.

EpicureanDM Wrote:

Quote

So I don’t know what in this thread reassures you that Things Are Going To Be Different, @Wheel Shield. From where I’m sitting, I think you’ll end up where you don’t want to be: back in RQ2.

Okay, I'll tell you what reassures me.

Jeff Richard wrote:

Quote

 

So actually I tend to throw characters into the realm of Heroes fast and early. Let them Discorporate and wander the Spirit World, or enter the Hero Plane to confront the magical archetypes of the Gods Realm. Here it is their Runes, their POW, their CON, their Passions, their Rune spells, and any Hero Points they have managed to accumulate that matter, not their skills or items. 

Through this the characters might gain the boon that lets them strike down the terrible Red Dragon or to confront the end of the cosmos and survive. But this is something very different from "Super-RuneQuest" - this is like adventuring in a myth of your own making, making use of your innermost self, your allies, and those who love or hate you. Does that help at all?

 

You ask someone a question and they give you an answer, it's then upon you to decide whether to accept it out not. Sometimes you have to let Developers do their job, and have some faith in people. It's not like they don't know a lot is riding on this.

There is no fight here for me.

[Wheel Shield]

Oh, yeah. I got the rulebook slip case. Dustin checked my coupon on file and with the savings I got a starter set.

[EpicureanDM]

52 minutes ago, Wheel Shield said:

But release schedules is not something you're talking about. You are suggesting that I won't like the heroquest rules that they will provide. Because I said I didn't care for HQG? I do struggle with it but it could be resolved with editing? It's dense like Grandma's fruitcake. I've also played Amber for decades. I've run Blades in the Dark. I've played Mutants and Masterminds. I'm reading City of Mist right now (along with the RQ Starter Set Book 1 PDF). I run a weekly Pathfinder 2E campaign (I was running on Foundry last night). I've written a ton of Pathfinder content for Paizo, not as a 3PP. You're jumping to the same conclusions as the people you call conservative. I do both simulationist and narrative gaming pretty effortlessly. I guess I'm Gaming Illuminated.

I wrote the paragraph above because you've suggested I might not like Andrew Logan Montgomery's contribution to the heroquest rules. I don't know that to be true. I have looked through Six Seasons in Sartar and I'm seeing a quality product, and it's a RQG product with RQG Stat Blocks. I've been reading his blog and he seems smart, creative, and sensible. I'm not trying to suck up to him but I am telling you that I'm not seeing any red flags.

If you're convinced, then you're convinced. I just want to clarify what I said, since I think you misunderstood.

I don't know if you're going to like the heroquesting rules Chaosium publishes, or whether your eventual assessment will be based on how similar those rules are to HQG (if they're similar at all). I didn't remember that you don't care for HQG when I wrote my last post. Because I didn't have your HQG opinion in mind, connecting Montgomery to HQG wasn't intended to sour your expectations for the eventual design for RQG's heroquesting rules. I meant to suggest that there is a disconnect between how Chaosium's designers appear to play the game at their own tables and the rules they publish for others to use. You seem satisfied that gap will close when new books are published.

 

[Wheel Shield]

2 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

If you're convinced, then you're convinced. I just want to clarify what I said, since I think you misunderstood.

I don't know if you're going to like the heroquesting rules Chaosium publishes, or whether your eventual assessment will be based on how similar those rules are to HQG (if they're similar at all). I didn't remember that you don't care for HQG when I wrote my last post. Because I didn't have your HQG opinion in mind, connecting Montgomery to HQG wasn't intended to sour your expectations for the eventual design for RQG's heroquesting rules. I meant to suggest that there is a disconnect between how Chaosium's designers appear to play the game at their own tables and the rules they publish for others to use. You seem satisfied that gap will close when new books are published.

 

Fair, and I withdraw all those remarks about Montgomery. I'm not trying to be contentious with you or misrepresent you.

Concerning a possible dichotomy between "what they sell" and "how they play", I know doing anything on YouTube is a mixed bag. You have two or three competing interests in a situation like this. You have to demonstrate the game, teach your players, and hold the audience's attention. That last goal is the deal breaker because if you can't hold the viewers attention and make the game look fun-nothing else matters. I don't know if the YouTube games are indicative of how they play off camera and in private, because the "demonstration" aspect is just to their players who already have a vested interest.

I don't watch a lot of Actual Plays because... I find them kinda boring. Which goes back to my suggestion on why they didn't dwell on Strike Ranks?

Again, sometimes you have to take a leap of faith. 

I do understand that you're frustrated (or whatever term you would pick in it's place), but I am at peace with my decision.

And with that.. I am going to try to let this thread come to it's natural conclusion. This may be my last reply to the thread.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Wheel Shield
tweaked a sentence

[Bren]

I've really enjoyed this thread. Wheel Shield, you have asked questions that I too have had for a very long time. And I greatly appreciate Jeff taking the time to respond and give clear answers. Many thanks to all of you who have participated in the thread.

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/17/2022 at 9:58 PM, g33k said:

But to be blunt:  NO.

Over the whole course of his career?  Well... yeah.  In fact, HELL YEAH !

While I have my issues with Harrek, even he didn't just randomly kill his god during initiation - he was an accomplished gladiator and dart-warrior, and had killed the Red Emperor, escaped through Dorastor, and at least in my headcanon caused so much small-c chaos there that it triggered the Seven Troubles from Dorastor. Only after that did he do the Deed. 

One thing about extremely high-level play in RQ is that it's a game with a large rules overhead, that swells to immense with very powerful characters. Be prepared for a lot of book-keeping, and I say that as someone who can enjoy that. Becoming rules-mechanically powerful in RQ is all about racking up a breadth of stuff, with dozens of crystals, matrices, other magic items, bound spirits, multiple cults, rune points all over the place, and so on. I'd fire up an Excel sheet, personally.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[icebrand]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

While I have my issues with Harrek, even he didn't just randomly kill his god during initiation - he was an accomplished gladiator and dart-warrior, and had killed the Red Emperor,

Lol... "He didnt kill a god in his initiation, he already killed another god before" like... REALLY? Thats your compelling argument? CMON DUDE...

My Glorantha Will Vary. ID rather not have Conans and Goku son running around with plot armor, TYVM.

So, imagine i'm at your RuneQuest Game and Harrek appears and my adventurer calls him out, saying he's full of it and making stuff up.

Now Harrek wants to kill me, what are you gonna do? Because we both know he has no stats and if you give him stats then im right and he's lying, because You can't kill gods (PLURAL) with RQ stats.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, icebrand said:

Lol... "He didnt kill a god in his initiation, he already killed another god before" like... REALLY? Thats your compelling argument? CMON DUDE...

First demi-god, then god. Baby steps. 🙂

[icebrand]

16 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

First demi-god, then god. Baby steps. 🙂

 

Yeah but then Jon Pol Joni challenged him to a duel, and everything changed.

Everyone was there, bisons and llamas and sables and impalas and morocanth, and all kinds of other peoples, from baboons to men and a half, harreks pirates and even some chaos folk.

The musical battle blasted the land, moved the block, woke up the devil and enthralled everyone who happened by.

Harrek really gave it all, but his bear-powered banjo was no match for the six-string of storms;  even his most trusted ally, Gunda, eventually rooted for Pol Joni, and after this religious reveal, she renounced humakt and joined donandar.

Shamed and broken, the white bear picked up his pirates and sailed to pamaltela, never to be seen or heard of again.

THE END.

Edited May 21, 2022 by icebrand

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Lol... "He didnt kill a god in his initiation, he already killed another god before" like... REALLY? Thats your compelling argument? CMON DUDE...

Killing Harrek once is not a problem as he is known to have at least one backdoor out of Hell, regardless of what happens to his mortal shell and its fluffy wrapping. In the boardgame the main question after killing any of the capital H Heroes was whether they would be back in time for the current scenario/military campaign, or not.

Heroic return also trumps being eaten by the Bat or the Hydra in the board game.

 

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

My Glorantha Will Vary. ID rather not have Conans and Goku son running around with plot armor, TYVM.

Think of them as recurring nigh-indestructible villains who may happen to be allied to your side at times. Like Yoda and Obi-Wan, Gandalf and Sauron, Merlin and Skiros, or Elric/Corum/Jerry.

 

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

So, imagine i'm at your RuneQuest Game and Harrek appears and my adventurer calls him out, saying he's full of it and making stuff up.

Now Harrek wants to kill me, what are you gonna do? Because we both know he has no stats and if you give him stats then im right and he's lying, because You can't kill gods (PLURAL) with RQ stats.

Gods and other such entities have emanations or avatars that may very well have such stats. The Crimson Bat is one such case.

Your character is similar to the trollkin facing of Rune Lord Rurik. Roll your crit to the head (or whatever sufficiently vulnerable), and get your one strike kill, with a wooden spoon if need be. Maybe collect enough plot armor for your character to get there. Plot armor = Heroquest gifts/powers (or chaotic features), heroic identification of himself or of his opponent from the identity challenge - which is what "calls him out, saying he is full of it" can be understood to mean. Frame the bearskin as a rug, and Harrek might be a lot less full of power and divine aura. Make his followers loathe him somewhat, and another  weakness will crop up in his present fighting form, a set of RQ stats with somewhat less incredible numbers.

 

 

[Darius West]

On 5/18/2022 at 2:06 AM, icebrand said:

Now, i assume since harrek is a thing, Jon Pol Joni can be a thing too right? 

Jon Pol Joni reads like the "John dies at the End" chapters written from Johns perspective in the sequels.😁

I personally don't see either Harrek, Androgeus or Jar-Eel as being Mary Sues.  They are ridiculously powerful, and they must be, because they are super-heroes, and not of the relatively low powered categories.  They aren't Green Arrows, they're Superman caliber.

That being said, Harrek has problems and personality flaws which don't fit with a Mary Sue.  Harrek is a Gloranthan Conan, only tougher than Conan,  Harrek is a berserker who can't often solve problems without recourse to violence.  In many ways he's a one-trick pony, and that ain't no Mary Sue.  Sure, he fought a bear deity in spirit combat and won, but there is evidence to suggest that the White bear may have somewhat allowed that to happen.

Jar-Eel is far more of a Mary Sue imo.  She is a child of privilege, born with every advantage, who seems to glide effortlessly through life up until the Hero Wars whacks her upside the head and destroys her world.

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Think of them as recurring nigh-indestructible villains who may happen to be allied to your side at times. Like Yoda and Obi-Wan, Gandalf and Sauron, Merlin and Skiros, or Elric/Corum/Jerry.

If one's only exposure to Gandalf is via The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings trilogy -- maybe...

But include the Silmarillion and other compilations, and Gandalf suddenly becomes something much more.

http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/characterofthemonth/gandalf.php
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Maiar

[icebrand]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Killing Harrek once is not a problem as he is known to have at least one backdoor out of Hell, regardless of what happens to his mortal shell and its fluffy wrapping.

Thats why Jon Pol Joni (which could have fought him at least to a standstill) chose to break his spirit in a guitar battle. Now Harrek is grinding his bear-powered banjo skill in pamaltela, bidding the time for his revenge.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Think of them as recurring nigh-indestructible villains who may happen to be allied to your side at times. Like Yoda and Obi-Wan, Gandalf and Sauron, Merlin and Skiros, or Elric/Corum/Jerry.

If they happen to appear in my campaign they are runelord+priest of their respective god, AND shaman, with 21 all stats, 185% combat skills (90 in the rest of their cult skills) and 21 rune points with the appropriate spirits and magic ítems (which are the spirits and magic ítems can attain if they want to).

Of course they can resurrect (your PC can too) and have a lot of followers, and very powerful, rune level ones (your PC can too). But those dudes don't appear in my campaign unless YOU want to go beat them up, and dont have anything PCs cant have. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Your character is similar to the trollkin facing of Rune Lord Rurik.

Nah, my players are the heroes of the setting. If the hero wars ever happen, it's THEIR thing. I love glorantha but seriously idgaf about canon.

The Big names exist and have stats and you can kill them if you ever get powerful enough, but what they do happens in the background and you only find out about it if you ask, now GET OUT OF TOWN AND GO ADVENTURE.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Maybe collect enough plot armor for your character to get there. Plot armor = Heroquest gifts/powers (

My heroquests give benefits to the community, and personal gains are límited (no more powerful than a humakt/yelmalio gift) and/or a metagame reward (a die re-roll, or an xp bonus).

I don't have super powers, if you want super powers im also running a BASH campaign 😁

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Jon Pol Joni reads like the "John dies at the End" chapters written from Johns perspective in the sequels

Thanks lol! Jon Pol Joni is *amazing* lol 

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

If one's only exposure to Gandalf is via The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings trilogy -- maybe...

I wonder how you glossed over me pairing Gandalf with Sauron, another villain who came and aided civilizations before, and again and again. Anoher lesser deity, or demigod.

[JonL]

On 5/21/2022 at 6:27 AM, icebrand said:

The musical battle blasted the land, moved the block, woke up the devil and enthralled everyone who happened by. 

Harrek really gave it all, but his bear-powered banjo was no match for the six-string of storms;  even his most trusted ally, Gunda, eventually rooted for Pol Joni, and after this religious reveal, she renounced humakt and joined donandar.

Challenge Accepted!