Yelmalio and sidearms

[M Helsdon]

There's a great deal of information about hoplite and phalangite phalanxes, including primary and secondary weapons in:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/296535/The-Armies-and-Enemies-of-Dragon-Pass?src=hottest_filtered

Edited May 24, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, svensson said:

falangist 

The more correct English usage is Phalangite (fah-lan-jite with j as soft g not y) for a member of a phalanx.  A falangist is a term generally reserved for elements of the pro-Franco Spanish Falange during the Spanish Civil War and has fascist associations.  I know its easy to be prejudiced, but not all Yelmalios...😃

[icebrand]

19 hours ago, svensson said:

Rapiers are too long and require an entirely different set of footwork to be used in a shield press.

Xiphos ['xiphoi'?] are first and foremost a stabbing shortsword. 

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4088249

Bronze age rapiers (+/-60cm) are not much longer than a xiphos (40-60cm) according to Wikipedia!

Was there really an entirely different set of footwork? Do we even have combat manuals from back then???

[Dogboy]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Imperial Sun is an epithet made by an outsider scribe and not one necessarily made by the Grazers themselves.  Yu has the sense of godhood about it rather than Emperor.  Hence Yu-Kargzant reads to me like God of Kargzant with time and custom turning the title into a proper name (cf Jupiter whose name is literally "Sky Father").

Most Pentan Sun worshippers are members of a specific tribe.  Whether other solar tribes have any is kinda beyond the scope of the forum.

Higher-Kargzant, though I do remember that there was supposed to be some shade thrown at whether he was considered Yelm by the Lowland Pelorians/Dara Happans. There was a whole "Empty Emperor/Puppet Emperor" piece, with the Horse people concealed by curtains, which we never took to final art for GRoY. It was sketched but we hadn't decided on who was represented in court.

[JRE]

Just a repost of a reply that was moved somewhere else but still applies to this discussion (without the Kargzant bits).

Going back to Kuschile archery, I hope we all agree that it was not useful either to the Hyalorings, or the Pentans, as both were riders first, and archers second. So my own take is that it is a technique used by Pelorians to have a cavalry that could at least compete in archery with the Horse people, even if they could not compete in horsemanship. How horse archery ended linked to a phalangite god is I believe a remnant of the tortuous way from Kargzant to Daysenervus to Tharkantus to Yelmalio, absorbing Elmal along the way. 

That is also why I considered possible to see a rider sidearm (to return to the initial question of the thread) like the Iranian battleaxe as part of the Yelmalions battle kit, in some Sun Dome Temples, probably closer to Peloria. Earth links, that I also think are closer in Yelmalio than in other Solar deities (I think Lodril counts as Fire but not as Solar). 

The argument of the cultural weapons is because the Sartar Sun temple was refounded only two generations ago, so I expect most of the former Elmali that joined still used their cultural weapons. Although the pikemen are the pinnacle of the temple mercenaries, most will be used to guard or police areas where it is more important you know how to handle your weapon than how it works in a pike press where the main thing will still be the pike.

[MOB]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:41 AM, Jeff said:

Kuschile Horse Archery allows relatively poor horsemen to be good mounted archers. I expect it is much more common in Dragon Pass than in Prax (the Praxian tribes don't really need it because they are excellent riders to begin with).

Yelmalio's blessings are ineffable, and Sun Domers of Prax still occasionally receive the Kuschile Archery gift and the other horse-related gifts/geases, even though they gave up rearing horses and their cavalry during the Solitude of Testing, hundreds of years ago.

Edited May 25, 2022 by MOB

[PhilHibbs]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:27 AM, MOB said:

Yelmalio's blessings are ineffable, and Sun Domers of Prax still occasionally receive the Kuschile Archery gift and the other horse-related gifts/geases, even though they gave up rearing horses and their cavalry during the Solitude of Testing, hundreds of years ago.

The classic Borderlands set seems to have horses all over the River of Cradles, when was this "Solitude of Testing" and the lack of horses introduced as a thing? Or are the horses a Lunar innovation that came with Raus?

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The classic Borderlands set seems to have horses all over the River of Cradles, when was this "Solitude of Testing" and the lack of horses introduced as a thing? Or are the horses a Lunar innovation that came with Raus?

The Solitude of Testing is the period from 1200 (the fall of Pavis) to 1575 (the arrival of Dorasar) in such diverse sources such as Sun County, Pavis: Threshold to Danger etc.

[Jeff]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:27 AM, MOB said:

Yelmalio's blessings are ineffable, and Sun Domers of Prax still occasionally receive the Kuschile Archery gift and the other horse-related gifts/geases, even though they gave up rearing horses and their cavalry during the Solitude of Testing, hundreds of years ago.

Probably because they are small minority of the actual cult. There are plenty of cults that offer spells or abilities of marginal utility to certain communities. Humakt's undead fighting abilities are not important in areas without a lot of undead, and Sense Chaos is not terribly useful in most civilised lands.

[icebrand]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Probably because they are small minority of the actual cult. There are plenty of cults that offer spells or abilities of marginal utility to certain communities. Humakt's undead fighting abilities are not important in areas without a lot of undead, and Sense Chaos is not terribly useful in most civilised lands.

Are you really gonna compare those kickass abilties with "you can shoot from your horse, but also you dont have a horse, and you can't ride either"???

I mean, all these threads are the same...

"X stuff is underwhelming!"

"Well, yeah, thats because the cult sucks"*

... I think people want cults that "suck" to suck less, not a reassurance that yes, the war cult for soldiers has no magic for soldiers, and the mouted troops have no magic for archery, or horses, or knows how to ride, and actually never mind, apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses (seriously?).

*By suck i mean it sucks. Lore aside, if you compare yelmalio with... Mostly anyone... It is a poor cult that offers nothing to the adventurer concept of a phalange trooper, or soldier, or whatever you want to play (unless you want to play "guy thats a soldier but has a subpar cult so deal with it".

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, icebrand said:

... I think people want cults that "suck" to suck less, not a reassurance that yes, the war cult for soldiers has no magic for soldiers, and the mouted troops have no magic for archery, or horses, or knows how to ride, and actually never mind, apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses (seriously?).

Yelmalions in Saird and Dragon Pass have access to horses. Only in Prax, where, due to hostility of the Animal Nomads, did the Sun Dome Temple there lose its cavalry and chariotry. The cult in Prax is an outlier, with a very distinct history.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, icebrand said:

... I think people want cults that "suck" to suck less, not a reassurance that yes, the war cult for soldiers has no magic for soldiers, and the mouted troops have no magic for archery, or horses, or knows how to ride, and actually never mind, apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses (seriously?).

If you really can't grasp that Yelamlion's suckiness is intentional  then perhaps your time may be better spent elsewhere?

 

[Eff]

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

If you really can't grasp that Yelamlion's suckiness is intentional  then perhaps your time may be better spent elsewhere?

 

I think the basic objection there is that the Yelmalio cult is presented in a way that people find deceptive, because the intentional suckiness, as it were, is not directly communicated within the game text, which can rather spoil the joke if you thought Yelmalio sounded cool and realized when you started playing what was actually going on.

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, icebrand said:

apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses

... in Prax

[Rodney Dangerduck]

19 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

... in Prax

Or in the pregenerated characters.  Dazarum, from the Starter Set, rides a Sable Antelope, not a horse.

I concur, the suckiness of Yelmalio is completely intentional.  Silently curse at MoB and others and move on...

[MOB]

On 5/26/2022 at 9:07 PM, PhilHibbs said:

The classic Borderlands set seems to have horses all over the River of Cradles, when was this "Solitude of Testing" and the lack of horses introduced as a thing? 

As noted, the 475 year-long 'Solitude of Testing' ended with the arrival of Duke Dorasor in 1575. But by then the Sun Domers of Prax had long adapted to their fate on foot ("things will have to change in order to stay the same").

On 5/26/2022 at 9:07 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Or are the horses a Lunar innovation that came with Raus?

The Lunar enforced peace brought more horses to the River of Cradles region. RQ3's Sun County describes how one militia company, styling themselves as 'Rogar's Riders', have recently taken to riding horses, but this is seen as dangerously radical. 

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, icebrand said:

... I think people want cults that "suck" to suck less, not a reassurance that yes, the war cult for soldiers has no magic for soldiers, and the mouted troops have no magic for archery, or horses, or knows how to ride, and actually never mind, apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses (seriously?).

I have always played that Kuschile archery works with zebras and unicorns, as well as horses, which makes it useful in Prax.

Similarly with Mindspeech with Horses, I play that it includes zebras, unicorns, mules and so on.

Of course, I find that Yelmalio sucks to be really funny, so I have no problem with it sucking. I played a Yelmalian Centaur who embraced the suckiness.

[Martin Dick]

19 hours ago, icebrand said:

... I think people want cults that "suck" to suck less, not a reassurance that yes, the war cult for soldiers has no magic for soldiers, and the mouted troops have no magic for archery, or horses, or knows how to ride, and actually never mind, apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses (seriously?).

Glorantha is not a balanced world, RQ Glorantha is not a game which tries to balance all the various cults, magic systems, combat skills, weapons etc. Jason and Jeff have made it clear that the materials they are producing are based upon Greg's vision of Glorantha and if that means a cult sucks, then the cult will suck. And yes, Yelmalio sucks more as a warrior god in RQG than he did in RQ2 or RQ3 (as RQG has way more rune magic available and that leaves him behind). But anyone who has looked at Sun County or Tales of the SandHeart Militia will know that there is a huge amount of roleplaying fun to be had with this cult and a lot of that comes from the fact that it's not a balanced cult.

If you don't like that, that's fine YGWV and you can give Yelmalio the power up that suits you and I don't think anybody is going to complain. But if you want to be constructive, then write up your version of Yelmalio with associated myths and then he won't be sucky for you or anyone else who doesn't want him to suck.

[Martin Dick]

14 hours ago, Eff said:

I think the basic objection there is that the Yelmalio cult is presented in a way that people find deceptive, because the intentional suckiness, as it were, is not directly communicated within the game text, which can rather spoil the joke if you thought Yelmalio sounded cool and realized when you started playing what was actually going on.

I think this is a much more constructive issue and I agree that it's important in an unbalanced game, for it to be clear what you are getting in to when you choose a cult for your character. I just read the Yelmalio cult in the preview copy and it wouldn't be clear to a new player that it doesn't really rank up there with the other warrior cults.

[icebrand]

15 hours ago, metcalph said:

If you really can't grasp that Yelamlion's suckiness is intentional  then perhaps your time may be better spent elsewhere?

If you cant contribute with anything but snark, maybe YOUR time may be better spent elsewhere? Like, you literally didnt read what i posted.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

Glorantha is not a balanced world, RQ Glorantha is not a game which tries to balance all the various cults, magic systems, combat skills, weapons etc.

And theres no warning, and theres many people that seems to be proud of this. The disconnect is real...

"RUNEQUEST: The game where you may chose a character that sucks, but dont worry its intended"

And they say this unironically? Like this was good game design instead of something horrible???

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

Jason and Jeff have made it clear that the materials they are producing are based upon Greg's vision of Glorantha and if that means a cult sucks, then the cult will suck

But the cults already existed, and yelmalio already sucked, and then they nerfed it, and they changed the mechanics, which made the powerful cults more powerful and the sucky cults more sucky (and everyone knows yelmalio isnt the only one in this situation).

So in RQ2 yelmalio is subpar. But not by a landslide! In RQ3 yelmalio is plain bad. In RQG you need to not know how to play to actually pick it as a serious option. People here seem to play them "ironically" or something, and i sure they have plenty fun, but i have actual players complaining that this didnt happen in other games and that their god is way worse than everyone elses and... They are right. Since i already know the official position is "sucks to be you" i fixed it myself and everyone is happy and yelmalio is a top shelf cult now.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

But anyone who has looked at Sun County or Tales of the SandHeart Militia will know that there is a huge amount of roleplaying fun to be had with this cult and a lot of that comes from the fact that it's not a balanced cult.

We have tons of fun at roleplaying, but the campaign is serious and not fit for joke characters, at least not mechanics-wise. Encounters are challenging and skill at playing the game + luck determine if you succeed or die (you know, like RAW). Since the players are new to runequest their "playing the game" skill isnt very high, and using a subpar choice is not viable.

Again, theres actual challenging enemies and i dont cheat; many people have this view of runequest where the sub-part cults are wacky and funny and whatever, but if you play RAW that ends up with your character either being a drag to the group, or (the better outcome) receiving a ticket to the court of daka fal like... really early.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

If you don't like that, that's fine YGWV and you can give Yelmalio the power up that suits you and I don't think anybody is going to complain. But if you want to be constructive, then write up your version of Yelmalio with associated myths and then he won't be sucky for you or anyone else who doesn't want him to suck.

Yes, thats what i did. No need to write up anything, i just put Shield/Absorption/Reflect as standard rune magic and any cult can learn any spirit magic (except prohibited ofc); the starting spells are the ones you pick for character creation, and are half price to learn after. This fixed yelmalio and everyone else that needed fixing. The broken, overpowered, and good cults remain the same (a smidge better maybe, but those cults already have almost all spirit magic from allies and/or their extensive list), and the crappy ones get buffed and feel real good to play.

 

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

I think this is a much more constructive issue and I agree that it's important in an unbalanced game, for it to be clear what you are getting in to when you choose a cult for your character. I just read the Yelmalio cult in the preview copy and it wouldn't be clear to a new player that it doesn't really rank up there with the other warrior cults.

YES.

Edited May 28, 2022 by icebrand

[Scotty]

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