Kargzant=Yelmalio?

[JRE]

I have realized I posted in the wrong thread. This splitting is a real headache, so I will just post this in the Kuschile thread. Sorry for cluttering.

Nothing more to add on the Kargzant front, except that as indicated in the Guide quote above, I believe the Pentans not of the Pure Horse Tribe consider that the Sun Horse is now the Sun, not Lightfore, and have conflated Kargzant with Yu Kargzant, probably by displacing the old Pure Horse priesthood, who will have joined the Julin Marsk tribe.

I am not sure if this dates from the recovery after the Nights of Horror or if it may have been pushed on by Sheng Seleris to spread the powerful Solar magics to all the tribes.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Dogboy said:

I meant that in that Pole Star, as a cult, is a lowlander war cult.

Not necessarily.  He's one of the Spirits of Above according to _Nomad Gods_ and the Grazers having come from Prax a few centuries ago would have known of him.  

 

1 hour ago, Dogboy said:

It's like this conversation, Yelmalio is known as Kargzant by early horse nomads.

He was worshipped by the early Horse Nomads.  The Pure Horse People worshipped a superior god as a result of something we donn't know and need not speculate about here.  Now consider the view of the Pure Horse People of Prax - you have two gods to worship for the same magic.  One is a Star at the Centre of the Nigh Sky while the other is a loser god of an inferior planet whose worshippers are well known to them as walkers and trash.  Being Pure Horse Folk, they would accept the god with high status.

If the Pure Horse folk were more cosmopolitan (I exclude the Zebra-riding weirdos with their bizarre bondage fetish*) then yes, they would accept Yelmalio.  But they didn't become so until the rise of the Pure Horse Queen at which point they were safely removed from Prax.

*Interestingly I note that the Zebra Tribe is 17% Yelmalio which is more than the Impala and second only to the Unicorn Riders.  

 

[Darius West]

Grrr...!

Why does everyone want to destroy Light deity diversity?  Damn your eyes Monrogh and your hegemonizing swarm mentality! This is pure Godlearner Syncretism ! Kargzant and Elmal are NOT Yelmalio.  I mean what about their associated cults and subcults?  Does Yelmalio get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get Orlanth?  These deities are simply not the same person, and this idea of an over-arching Yelmalio is Godlearnerism.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Darius West

[Dogboy]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Grrr...!

Why does everyone want to destroy Light deity diversity?  Damn your eyes Monrogh and your hegemonizing swarm mentality! This is pure Godlearner Syncretism ! Kargzant and Elmal are NOT Yelmalio.  I mean what about their associated cults and subcults?  Does Yelmalio get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get Orlanth?  These deities are simply not the same person, and this idea of an over-arching Yelmalio is Godlearnerism.

On one hand, I understand it: These gods all refer to one entity. But on the other, the cults themselves are very indivudal things. For Jeff, I say you homogenise as much as you need to get the books out, but I also know that there is a lot that these cults won't agree on.

 

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

He was worshipped by the early Horse Nomads.  The Pure Horse People worshipped a superior god as a result of something we donn't know and need not speculate about here.  Now consider the view of the Pure Horse People of Prax - you have two gods to worship for the same magic.  One is a Star at the Centre of the Nigh Sky while the other is a loser god of an inferior planet whose worshippers are well known to them as walkers and trash.  Being Pure Horse Folk, they would accept the god with high status. 

You are conflating the cults of Yelmalio & Kargzant. They are not the same thing, they just talk to the same entity. For horse people, he might be a better fit: lance and shield  charges, archery etc.

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, Dogboy said:

On one hand, I understand it: These gods all refer to one entity. But on the other, the cults themselves are very indivudal things. For Jeff, I say you homogenise as much as you need to get the books out, but I also know that there is a lot that these cults won't agree on.

I may overstate these things a bit for dramatic effect (and comedy value).  I think what we are dealing with could be called the MASKS OF YELMALIO (taking a leaf out of CoC).  Is this actually the same deity?  I don't think so.  On the other hand, Time didn't used to exist, so causality is a mess Before Time.  I am not so blind as to pretend that they are not highly similar deities, I just think Glorantha is richer when we include diversity.  In this case, I would suggest modifying the cult write-up for Yelmalio a bit to incorporate the differences in the single cult write-up.

[Dogboy]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

I may overstate these things a bit for dramatic effect (and comedy value).  I think what we are dealing with could be called the MASKS OF YELMALIO (taking a leaf out of CoC).  Is this actually the same deity?  I don't think so.  On the other hand, Time didn't used to exist, so causality is a mess Before Time.  I am not so blind as to pretend that they are not highly similar deities, I just think Glorantha is richer when we include diversity.  In this case, I would suggest modifying the cult write-up for Yelmalio a bit to incorporate the differences in the single cult write-up.

This is why I used the term Entity. Though the cults of Yelmalio, Kargzant, and Elmal have some overlap, they will have differing myths. Differing myths, means differing powers. These aren't the "same" gods, and anyone saying so probably doesn't understand Gloranthan gods, IMO. If Elmal has a Hill of Gold, it is unlikely that it includes him being rolled by Orlanth. More likely he gifts him one of his powers, as the Loyal Thane of Orlanth he is. Similarly, Kargzant that was, wasn't Yelmalio, as the horse people have no use for a footsoldier cult. Instead they would have the Plain of Gold myth, in which he is purified of extraenous powers, to reveal the Kernal of his being, representing the predation in the Darkness.

Cults syncretise, Gods don't.

The problem we have is that we only have Jeff to write this. Jeff is Chaosiums' Greg, and he has a very clear idea of Glorantha works. He has to do the majority of the writing, and frankly it's a big task. Asking him to do this kind of writing is going to increase his workload significantly. I wouldn't want to burden him more.

[AndreJarosch]

2 hours ago, Dogboy said:

This is why I used the term Entity. Though the cults of Yelmalio, Kargzant, and Elmal have some overlap, they will have differing myths. Differing myths, means differing powers. These aren't the "same" gods, and anyone saying so probably doesn't understand Gloranthan gods, IMO. If Elmal has a Hill of Gold, it is unlikely that it includes him being rolled by Orlanth. More likely he gifts him one of his powers, as the Loyal Thane of Orlanth he is. Similarly, Kargzant that was, wasn't Yelmalio, as the horse people have no use for a footsoldier cult. Instead they would have the Plain of Gold myth, in which he is purified of extraenous powers, to reveal the Kernal of his being, representing the predation in the Darkness.

Cults syncretise, Gods don't.

The problem we have is that we only have Jeff to write this. Jeff is Chaosiums' Greg, and he has a very clear idea of Glorantha works. He has to do the majority of the writing, and frankly it's a big task. Asking him to do this kind of writing is going to increase his workload significantly. I wouldn't want to burden him more.

IMHO there is no corect answer. 

It is possible that Yelmalio, Elmal and Kargzant (among others) are seperate entities, but have very simmilar cults in Glorantha, which are presented in RQG as the Yelmalio Cult (which lists the other names of the entity in other culteres as Elmal, Kargzant, etc.). 

It it also possible that there is ONE entity on the gods plane that is being worshipped by different cultures under different names. As god of cold light/surface light/light in the darkness etc. it isn´t important for this god if his worshippers get all the other aspects he is worshipped for are in line with each other. 
I look at it as an entity that likes to be alive by being worshipped/getting magic points etc. 
If the hill barbarians worship this entity as the light in the hills, thane of Orlanth, then he accepts the worship of these hill barbarians. 
If the rider people of the plains worship him as the god of horse archery he will not neglect their worship.
If the phanlanx fighters of the Sun Dome temples worship him as a god of soldiers and phalanxes he will not refuse their worship. 
"If they worship me and give me magic/pow points, i am whatever they want that i am."

Edited May 27, 2022 by AndreJarosch

[Dogboy]

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

IMHO there is no correct answer. 

"If they worship me and give me magic/pow points, i am whatever they want that i am*."

* Within my remit. Limitations may apply. May cause side effects, like inability to eat bird flesh or wash on some days. If these cause issue, consult your priest. Terms and conditions can be found at your nearest temple.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Dogboy

[JRE]

From a Materialist / pseudo God Learner perspective, these are different perceptions of the deity of Lightfore (the small sun, or the yellow planet). As one of the most characteristic sky objects, it is likely it is associated with a hero or deity in most Gloranthan cultures. It also remained alight during the Darkness, and was a sign of hope for many, another reason for widespread recognition.

Although these attributions made in Godtime may have started as different heroes or deities, the structure of myth within time ensures that, in my opinion, the deities are progressively mixed together, or they have to cut the connection with the planet to keep their individuality. I use the planet as an objective fact that ties them together, but this commonality may be pushed by other common points, such as mastery of Death, or being the source of music. Although they may start as separate entities, force of belief shapes reality, and if millions of people believe something about the deity of the planet, or of Death, that will alter the myths or experiences of the believers in other masks, so either they disconnect their deity, decreasing its power, or it will be subsumed in the larger cult. This is a crosspollination, so many of the minority cult myths will strangely be accesible and experienced by the majority, and with a hero effort may become mainstream in the cult. That would be one of the sources for unusual magics or techniques, such as Kuschile archery.

When most of the people celebrate the rites to remake the world in the Sacred Time, they are not working in isolation, but unconsciously combine all together. That is why I see such uniformity along great distances, because in certain moments they are in the same myth space, sharing the experience of the myth. That may allow worshippers of one discover a mythical fact of the other. 

I see this as the mechanism discovered and exploited by the Theyalan missionaries to turn the varied Genertela's storm worshippers into relatively uniform Orlanthi, or by the memetically aggresive Solars of Dara Happa to spread the glory of Yelm Imperator, even to their enemies. Identifying the common ground and then making them experience the mythical series, including the raw power of their interpretation compared to their own limited myth. Some myths were imported, but the local variations were crushed by the weight of the experience of millions of Orlanthi or Dara Happans. The problem of this cultural hegemon that it allows a powerful hero to coopt the myths, as Lokamaydon did with Orlanth in the first Age, or Monrogh did at a smaller scale with Elmal in the Third Age. 

The power of heroes is that they can change the myth, and if it is taken up by the worshippers it can change in dramatic (and fast) ways the cult. Or a hero may come and unmake the changes made earlier, though reversing changes may be hard if you have lost the original myths. The sources indicate that a trace of the original may be found going very deep into the myth, or very "early" in the Godtime, but the closer you go to the source, the entities involved are more powerful. In a way it is like editing a wikipedia entry, with each editor a hero altering the reality of the subject, but also hiding their own alterations at times. On Earth going to the source is easier than in Glorantha, of course.

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Dogboy said:

The problem we have is that we only have Jeff to write this. Jeff is Chaosiums' Greg, and he has a very clear idea of Glorantha works. He has to do the majority of the writing, and frankly it's a big task. Asking him to do this kind of writing is going to increase his workload significantly. I wouldn't want to burden him more

 

13 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

IMHO there is no corect answer. 

It is possible that Yelmalio, Elmal and Kargzant (among others) are seperate entities, but have very simmilar cults in Glorantha, which are presented in RQG as the Yelmalio Cult (which lists the other names of the entity in other culteres as Elmal, Kargzant, etc.). 

And thus, a great new addition to the JC.

[soltakss]

On 5/24/2022 at 1:12 PM, Dogboy said:

If Kargzant=Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is the sun-horse, why isn't Yelmalio worshipped as such in the Grazelands?

Kargzant, the Little Sun, is Yelmalio, and Yu-Kargzant, the Big Sun, is Yelm, in my Glorantha.

Why would Grazelanders worship Yelmalio when they already have Kargzant, who is the Little Son?

Alternatively, Kargzant is just another name for Yelmalio, emphasising his horse-rider aspect.

On 5/24/2022 at 1:12 PM, Dogboy said:

you'd assume they are very adept Kuschile archers. it makes me think that Yelmalio is Orlanth Adventurous, to Yelms' Orlanth Rex.

Kuschile is probably available to more than just Yelmalio. Yelorna gains his blessing as well, for example. As Kuschile is, probably, Pentian in origin, I'd expect the Grazelanders to have access to him. Or, they could access Golden Bow, which might give similar benefits.

On 5/25/2022 at 10:00 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Why on Glorantha would they be good at Kuschile archery?

Their ride is going to start at at least 75% for cavalry (base 05, culture 35, occupation 35 plus Agility modifier)... and, a PC can add another 15-35% for Cult, or 10/25% from Personal Bonuses.

Kuschile starts at only 25% with a Geas...

I, along with many people, ignore the Horse Archer skill and allow members of the Kuschile subcult to use their full bow skill while on horseback. It saves having to maintain multiple skills.

On 5/25/2022 at 5:06 PM, Dogboy said:

Kuschile archery is a leg up for a bunch of foot soldiers.

Kuschile archery is useless to foot soldiers.It is good for cavalry, though.

On 5/26/2022 at 7:57 AM, Dogboy said:

No, Kuschile is only for Yelmalio cultists as we know them: foot-soldiers, with little experience of horses. My point about kids was a stupid one, I'll admit.

Yelornans also get the blessings of Kuschile, so their Unicorn Riders and other riders get access to it.

Kuschile archery is not just for footsoldiers.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 10:35 PM, Dogboy said:

Anyway, why take on a foreign god to do the job already taken by one of your own?

The Grazelanders worship the stars, as they have the same myths of the Star Captains who came and helped them.

So, Pole Star is not a foreign god to them.

 

[Dogboy]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:07 AM, soltakss said:

Kuschile archery is useless to foot soldiers.It is good for cavalry, though.

 

 

You misunderstood me. It is a leg up for a people with no propensity for it. They are crap cavilry, and it gives them some ability in an area they are weak in.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/26/2022 at 10:50 AM, Darius West said:

Grrr...!

Why does everyone want to destroy Light deity diversity?  Damn your eyes Monrogh and your hegemonizing swarm mentality! This is pure Godlearner Syncretism ! Kargzant and Elmal are NOT Yelmalio.  I mean what about their associated cults and subcults?  Does Yelmalio get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get the Thunder Brothers because he is also Elmal?  Does Kargzant get Orlanth?  These deities are simply not the same person, and this idea of an over-arching Yelmalio is Godlearnerism.

Elmal's dead baby, Elmal's dead.

Why is there only one Light deity? Because someone up there loves Structuralism?

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Elmal's dead baby, Elmal's dead.

Why is there only one Light deity? Because someone up there loves Structuralism?

Beyond Yelmalio, there are several Light (as in Sky without Fire or Heat) deities. Polaris is the most important Star God, but there are not doubt lesser Star cults. Yelorna is another Light goddess. And of course Dayzatar is associated with the Light Rune. Dendara has a secondary association with the Light Rune. 

Call me wacky but I find five to be more one.

[davecake]

On 5/26/2022 at 12:06 AM, Dogboy said:

Some enterprising Yelmalio cultist Heroquested and found a link to 1st Age Kargzanti Horse Archers. Kuschile archery is a leg up for a bunch of foot soldiers. My guess would be that it would also be taught to Grazer kids, who aren't great riders (yet), as defense against attack.

Kids won’t have access to Gifts and Geases as they aren’t initiates, and besides the marginal value of Kuschile archery (most Grazer kids will not have high archery skill either) is not worth a geas.

Plus Kuschile archery seems to be a semi-magical skill - and the Kargzant cult, which, though it is the same deity as Yelmalio, has probably been culturally distinct since before the Dawn, at least since the nomads were driven out of Dara Happa, and probably does not use Gifts and Geases (which probably date from the Daysenarus era). 
So - I think the point that Kuschile archery is unlikely to be useful to Grazer kids has been thoroughly made, but I think it’s unlikely to be an option on the table in any case. 

On 5/26/2022 at 3:53 PM, Dogboy said:

I meant that in that Pole Star, as a cult, is a lowlander war cult. It's the cult of officers. Pentans know the entity, but likely, not in the same way.

To the Pentans, I think Pole Star is worshipped far more as a general war god, and he offers some pretty useful magic for archery (Shooting Star) and ranged direct attack (Arrow of Light). Plus the cult teaches FireArrow and Speedart - overall, a really pretty great cult for archers. Though his war leadership magic (Morale, Captain Souls, Star Walk) is still very valued. Sometimes it will be worshipped shamanisticly I think? 
Once again, I think we have the issue with Yelmalio that initiating to Yelmalio can be seen as an awkward step backwards (you lose access to FireArrow and gain pretty much nothing in terms of useful combat magic) for the (mostly light cavalry) warriors who are supposed to worship him - but it’s even worse for Pentans than it is for eg Praxian Impala riders, because Polaris is right there as a clearly superior option… 

 

[davecake]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:07 PM, soltakss said:

Kuschile archery is useless to foot soldiers.It is good for cavalry, though.

No. Kuschile archery is of very limited use to cavalry, as most cavalry should have a high Ride skill, and for mounted nomad cultures almost no use, as ‘live in the saddle’ cultures will usually have a very high Ride, generally higher than Bow. And of course it’s of no use to most foot soldiers who don’t even have horses, and usually not a very high Bow skill.  
Kuschile archery let’s you turn infantry archers into poor light cavalry. But the problem is it doesn’t help much at all in turning your new bad light cavalry into good light cavalry - good light cavalry have to be good riders, and the better a rider you are, the less useful Kuschile archery is. 

[davecake]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:07 PM, soltakss said:

Yelornans also get the blessings of Kuschile, so their Unicorn Riders and other riders get access to it.

Yelornan infantry who unexpectedly acquire a unicorn is one of the few really convincing use cases for the Kuschile Archery skill. Because of course you are going to Ride that unicorn even if you do it badly, because it’s a unicorn and they are awesome. Though it’s not very useful to actual Yelornan Unicorn Riders (the official cult status), as they have to have mastered Unicorn Riding to qualify, and only if you qualify will the cult normally help you quest to acquire your own unicorn. 
So one again, Kuschile Archery seems very niche. 

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Call me wacky but I find five to be more one.

That's crazy talk! 🙂

 

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

pretty much nothing in terms of useful combat magic) for the (mostly light cavalry) warriors who are supposed to worship him

Yelmalio is actually an pretty good god for _light_ cavalry; it's in the name. In the RQ:G spell list, catseye and command hawk are unique spells that directly allow them to do their primary job in an ancient army: scouting.

Polaris is probably better classified as mounted artillery; Yelorna is good at both roles.

[davecake]

On 6/2/2022 at 8:34 PM, radmonger said:

Yelmalio is actually an pretty good god for _light_ cavalry; it's in the name. In the RQ:G spell list, catseye and command hawk are unique spells that directly allow them to do their primary job in an ancient army: scouting.

Yelmalio is a great cult for scouts, yes. The Gift of permanent Farsee is pretty great too. 

But that’s only one of the jobs of light cavalry, and for skirmishing or mass light cavalry as a primary troop type (like the Impala tribe or the majority of Pentans) Yelmalio doesn’t appear to offer much. Scouting is only the main job of light cavalry in armies that aren’t mostly light cavalry! 
 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by davecake

[davecake]

On 6/2/2022 at 8:34 PM, radmonger said:

Polaris is probably better classified as mounted artillery; Yelorna is good at both roles.

I think the ‘mounted artillery’ really applies to primarily magic troops, like Yelmic groups like the Spell Archers, or the Golden Bow shamans - basically, the elite of the Pure Horse People probably fit, with the bulk of the PHP able to provide good magic for light or heavy cavalry (Yelm provides enhancement magic for melee weapons, especially spears, too, so can punch up a charge). Polaris just has some decent archery enhancement magic, and their leadership magic. 
Yelorna also provides good magic for either archery or melee, but is likely to be a small limited elite due to the lack of unicorns.