Kuschile Horse Archery

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Is it worth it? From a game system point of view I still don't think so. It's an additional complexity, and an additional die roll to make. It's a bit like an augment really, but one that is unlimited in its utility and is in addition to augments.

I don't think it's very useful either mechanically speaking -- or, rather, it doesn't feel to me like an elegant or efficient way to mechanically represent the in-world phenomenon it tries to model. If I was so inclined I might look into something else like, say, take the geas and gain the ability to remove the Ride skill limitation by rolling under your Fire/Sky Rune or something.

However, I think the way you looked at Kuschile archery benefits was misleading. I wouldn't look at it through the lens of "average bonus to weapon skill over multiple battles". I would look at it as "sometimes you get the limitation, and sometimes you don't", and then spread that to an entire army. Assuming a bit of past experience and a bit of skill category bonuses, you could consider that a third of your army is shooting arrows with no penalty from their mediocre Ride skill. That suddenly doesn't sound too bad. And if it was tied to something like the Fire/Sky Rune as per my half-assed house rule I made up 2 minutes ago, it could rise to a half or two-thirds of the army.

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Do we know that Kuschile Archery is based on a real life thing? Surely mounted nomad archers will just have a high Ride skill, no need for a special mitigating skill.

Yeah I agree, it's not based on a real life thing. Kuschile archery is not the mere fact of shooting arrows from horseback. Everybody who's got, like, a bow and a horse can try and do that. And they can get better at it by improving Ride and Bow. It sounds to me like Kuschile is something else: it's about spiritually getting closer to your sky/horse deities and (in exchange for a geas) getting better at bow and horse stuff, without having to train for it. It's a fantasy/magical skill.

And this actually makes me think of another half-assed rule: if it's spiritual, what about allowing ritual practices with it? You get your army to pray for an hour before battle, and that raises their Kuschile skill by +35% for that battle. Maybe your first attack has more preparation and they get +50% (one day of praying). Suddenly it's a lot more effective, except for when you have to fight multiple battles a day or when you get ambushed or surprised.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Ludovic aka Lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Ludovic aka Lordabdul said:

...It's a fantasy/magical skill.

And this actually makes me think of another half-assed rule: if it's spiritual, what about allowing ritual practices with it? You get your army to pray for an hour before battle, and that raises their Kuschile skill by +35% for that battle. Maybe your first attack has more preparation and they get +50% (one day of praying). Suddenly it's a lot more effective, except for when you have to fight multiple battles a day or when you get ambushed or surprised.

Absolutely, why not! RQ3 Sun County made it a Manipulation skill (I think Cults of Prax never specified), but RQG is not based on RQ3 so I wonder where it goes in GAGOG. I'd be quite happy with it being a Magic skill and use meditate or ritual prep on it!

Oh and...

12 hours ago, MOB said:

Yelmalio's blessings are ineffable, and Sun Domers of Prax still occasionally receive the Kuschile Archery gift and the other horse-related gifts/geases, even though they gave up rearing horses and their cavalry during the Solitude of Testing, hundreds of years ago.

So yes, it can only be used on horseback, and yes, this is consistent with everything we know about Yelmalio.

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

At first glance it does seem particularly pointless. Why raise your Kuschile Archery skill, instead of raising your Ride skill?

However, it gives you a chance of improving your chance. Even if you only get the "free" 25% chance, then that's an immediate benefit.

Lets say you have 25% Ride and 50% Bow. A 25% KA skill immediately raises your Bow chance, on average, to 31.25% chance. You have a one-in-four chance of using your full 50% skill and a three-in-four chance of being limited by your 25% ride.

However, for the same cost of one geas, you could instead get +10% to Ride which nets you an effective 35% and brings you all the other benefits of actually being able to ride. This seems like a far better deal.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So yes, it can only be used on horseback, and yes, this is consistent with everything we know about Yelmalio.

Apologies for my ignorance,  but are Yelmalians allowed to ride horses in Sun County?

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Apologies for my ignorance,  but are Yelmalians allowed to ride horses in Sun County?

Assuming you're talking about the Praxian Sun Country, I'd guess that yes it's allowed, or at least not disallowed, but there's not much reason to. They don't have much reason to keep or use them in their current situation, and it'd make their Praxian tribal members uncomfortable. If they do need cavalry for some reason, they have the majority of the Impala tribe as allies.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

If they do need cavalry for some reason, they have the majority of the Impala tribe as allies.

I wonder what Impala riders think about getting horse-related gifts and geases…

[David Scott]

49 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder what Impala riders think about getting horse-related gifts and geases…

When CoG comes out, you'll see that depending on the aspect, Gifts and geases can be replaced with re-roll... As it's only Speak with horses, I suggest re-rolling (It's too close to Eiritha's skills and magic to change to speak with impalas). With Never let a horse suffer needlessly. Change to mount or re-roll. As for Never eat the meat of horses I'm not sure that matters. Likewise the gift & geas list is not a fixed list as others have been given since Time began. The gamemaster should feel free to create new gifts and geases with these as examples. There are Yelmalions amongst most of the major tribes too, so it's not just impala riders.

[JRE]

(posted by mistake in the Kargzant thread)

Kuschile archery cannot be taught normally, so we should stop using RW analogues, and obviously is not useful for horse nomads as they do not normally learn it. However it should work for Impala riders, or the list of gifts and geas for them should be changed.

There are three questions, what is the effect of the skill we try to simulate, if the current rules do what we want, and what is the mythic reasoning behind it.

From the discussion and Jeff comments, the effect is that unskilled riders are effective archers while on horseback. 

I agree the rule as written does not do that, as improving riding is much more useful. Mechanically I would simply add the Kuschile archery skill to my ride to determine the maximum skill for my bow. So 35% Ride and 35% Kuschile Archery let me use up to 70% bow. If both go to 40, I can benefit up to 80%. I think it gives the desired effect without any complex mechanics or rolls, and you can still improve it as long as your bow is high enough.

Now, the Impala. Normal Impala Riders will have high enough Ride, and we have even some discussion whether it would work from an Impala. Why would the Impala choose Yelmalio? A skill not useful for them, many spears that are not too good for pygmies, and no bow magic, though with abundant shamans spirit magic at least will be good...

I would propose the Yelmalion Impalas are those that guard the camp and the women while in the march. Which is why they learn spears besides the bows. They may not have animals, or they just are not too good. And I would propose, tying this with the old Solar chariot tribes, the Gamatae, that Kuschile Archery also works from chariots or wagons. I have always had a weakness for old Yamsur, from RQ3 Sun County. However in a game I would allow an Impala Yelmalion to use Kuschile archery from an Impala. Although Bow and Ride may start at similar values, knowing PCs, Bow will increase faster, so my proposed change would still be useful for the PC.

As for mythical justifications, I am sure it claims to bring back the deeds of the Silver age Solar nomads, but I believe it is a development in the Tharkantus period, second age, as a way to adapt your troops from heavy infantry to a more mobile force to fight the EWF, so being able to face enemies like dragonewts, flying draconics and dinosaurs. Troops that can shoot and evade dragonfire and Dinosaur charges.

[Darius West]

On 5/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, Richard S. said:

I read it something like "koo-SHEEL" or "koo-SHEEL-ae"

I read it as Koo-shy-L.  (Toe-may-toe/Toe-mart-toe).

[Shiningbrow]

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I read it as Koo-shy-L. 

Same... because the -e at the end of English words is supposed to make the preceding vowel long... so, 'i' (as in 'eye').

[metcalph]

Under normal circumstances, Kuschile Archery seems like a weak-ass skill that makes no sense for your usual adventurers.  But Yelmalio is no ordinary cult.  10% of his initiates have a cult weapon skill of 90% which includes the bow.  So their starting best archers are 90% bow and 5% ride.  Normally They get Kuschile Archery at a base of 25% which is a huge improvement.

Instead of sucking at 5% archery every time they are on horseback, 25% of their arrows are at 90%.  So what if Kuschile Archery is a lousy skill to improve compared to ride?  All that matters to the Yelmalions, is that from fresh troops, they can muster half-decent mounted archers.  

[Akhôrahil]

I wonder what the tactical implications are here. With poor Ride, they can't really maneuver too well, and especially not over poor ground or at top speed. Certainly nothing like Mongol tactics or Parthian shot, as these require excellent horsemanship. They don't have the mobility or speed of proper cavalry. They are complete garbage in mounted melee, since there they no longer have access to anything that saves them from their poor riding skill.

So it means that they are extremely vulnerable to enemy cavalry, which can both chase them down and then annihilate them in close combat. Perhaps the proper use for them is to have them as a mobile fire base - if they can use their at least acceptable speed to get into a good position, they can fire from there, and at least escape melee from foot infantry. They could also conceivably be used as dragoons, ready to dismount in order to fight properly, but still able to fire from horseback.

I imagine proper cavalry would be unimpressed.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[icebrand]

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Under normal circumstances, Kuschile Archery seems like a weak-ass skill that makes no sense for your usual adventurers.  But Yelmalio is no ordinary cult.  10% of his initiates have a cult weapon skill of 90% which includes the bow.  So their starting best archers are 90% bow and 5% ride.  Normally They get Kuschile Archery at a base of 25% which is a huge improvement.

Instead of sucking at 5% archery every time they are on horseback, 25% of their arrows are at 90%.  So what if Kuschile Archery is a lousy skill to improve compared to ride?  All that matters to the Yelmalions, is that from fresh troops, they can muster half-decent mounted archers.  

Please tell me this is sacarsm?

"Compared to other cults, this one sucks... But wait!!! We have thought of a new way to make them suck even more!!!"

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Apologies for my ignorance,  but are Yelmalians allowed to ride horses in Sun County?

Yes, but Praxians hate horses with a vengeance and so it isn't practical to keep horses there.

MOB's take on Sun County in Prax is the MGF version, which is a little bit of a parody. He leans heavily into the stuck-up rule-bound repressed-sexuality side, and the horse-heavy Gift and Geas table is part of this humorous take. I should have said this is consistent with everything we "know" about Yelmalio.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

When CoG comes out, you'll see that depending on the aspect, Gifts and geases can be replaced with re-roll... As it's only Speak with horses, I suggest re-rolling (It's too close to Eiritha's skills and magic to change to speak with impalas). With Never let a horse suffer needlessly. Change to mount or re-roll. As for Never eat the meat of horses I'm not sure that matters. Likewise the gift & geas list is not a fixed list as others have been given since Time began. The gamemaster should feel free to create new gifts and geases with these as examples. There are Yelmalions amongst most of the major tribes too, so it's not just impala riders.

Clearly the "official" line diverges a little from MOB's MGF version. Pick whichever suits your style!

[PhilHibbs]

25 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Please tell me this is sacarsm?

"Compared to other cults, this one sucks... But wait!!! We have thought of a new way to make them suck even more!!!"

43 years old is new?

Now I don't know if we're talking about Sartarite Yelmalions or River of Cradles Yelmalions. Sartarites can ride horses, and it's easy to start with 70% ride and 70% Bow skill as a Sartarite. We don't have a cultural background for RoC Sun County yet, so I don't know if they get Ride skill or not.

Also, maybe 43 years is over-stating it. I don't know when the "Solitude of Testing" was introduced as a thing, that left the RoC Yelmalions bereft of horses. The classic Borderlands pack seems to imply that horses are common in the RoC area, but says they are taboo on the Plains of Prax.

[Darius West]

16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, but Praxians hate horses with a vengeance and so it isn't practical to keep horses there.

Ideally speaking, religious  Praxians are supposed to hate horses, but a more honest observation suggests Praxians hate horses when it suits their purposes.  Have the Praxians massed to kill the Pol Joni? No.  They don't like their horses much, but they haven't made a point of forming an inter-tribal alliance to annihilate the Horse bastards.  Weirdly enough, the Praxians and the Pol Joni all join the White Bulls to kill the Lunars.  Praxian hostility to horses is a very nuanced prejudice, and some Khans "don't even notice horses" when it suits them, while on another day when there is an advantage will kill all the horses they can find.  All riding a zebra achieves is removing one recourse to bigotry and hostility from Praxians.

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

"it'd make their Praxian tribal members uncomfortable."

Lame. Here's the thing. Praxians who insist that they totally hate horses -- all horses, all the time -- are usually attempting a shake-down on some poor party of outlanders who've brought horses into Prax. And if that same party had brought mules or zebras or (some other Praxian tribe's) beasts or even (the same tribe's) beasts, they'd be just as shouty. "You're mistreating that bison! You're allied with our Sable-riding foes! You can't fool us, that zebra's just a horse with stripes painted on!" They scream and wave hatchets around until you pay up. If you don't pay up, sure, they might kill your mounts and leave you to die in the Wastes. Whatever you're riding.

Things are different when you're signed on with the Sun Dome Temple, or indeed with Argrath's Barbarian Horde. Sure, some of the things the officers order you to do will "make you uncomfortable." March for days on end carrying a heavy pack. Spend the whole campaigning season in some godforsaken troll-haunted wilderness. Cold showers every morning because the commander has a hygiene fetish. Making nice with the Lunar Tarshite contingent, and the Wyrm-loving warlocks, and the zombie support staff. Oh, yeah, and some of the scout cavalry ride mounts you have a ritual obligation not to touch or eat. Man up and deal with it.

In extremis, you could end up with an Indian Mutiny situation, I suppose. Order Praxians to take care of horses, or ride them, or eat horse meat, and you're crossing the line. But seriously, what are the odds of that?

[metcalph]

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Have the Praxians massed to kill the Pol Joni? No.  They don't like their horses much, but they haven't made a point of forming an inter-tribal alliance to annihilate the Horse bastards. 

Not really.  There was a Shaman's Alliance that opposed the Pol Joni but Sartar made everything right.  This seems to have made the Pol Joni paying respects to the Paps at which point they cease to be Quivini and start to being Praxians.

Edit: It's occurred to me that taking place in 1489 would have made it almost 30 years after the fall of Sheng Seleris.  The Shaman Alliance were operating against a background of being bossed around by the Pentans not so long ago and may not have been quite so xenophobic.

Edited May 26, 2022 by metcalph

[Nick Brooke]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There was a Shaman's Alliance that opposed the Pol Joni but Sartar made everything right. 

And something similar happened after the fall of Boldhome -- "The Pol-Joni Tribe, unsupported by Sartar help, was mauled in a battle against combined Praxian forces. This alliance caused the Lunars to suspect that the demigod, Waha, was likely to return in person again soon..."

Luckily, General Sor-eel was able to march on the Paps and stop that nonsense before anything untoward could happen. And, "upon his return, Sor-eel was highly commended for his actions, which had prevented the rebirth of Waha." (King of Sartar, p.118f)

We know teaming up to fight horse people can have political and ritual significance to Praxians, under the right circumstances. Maybe that's why they do it? (Also, has anyone got any theories about which Praxian Great Khan(s) in the run-up to First Moonbroth might have been in pole position to become Waha Returned, and what they did next?)

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

We know teaming up to fight horse people can have political and ritual significance to Praxians, under the right circumstances. Maybe that's why they do it? (Also, has anyone got any theories about which Praxian Great Khan(s) in the run-up to First Moonbroth might have been in pole position to become Waha Returned, and what they did next?)

Looking next door, they just saw Sartar get done in by the Crimson Bat.  So they may have thought we're next and attempted a summoning of Waha to prepare for the likely return of Chaos (as opposed to the usual summoning of Jaldon Toothmaker).  So the Great Khans of the Bison and Impala were probably jockeying around to become Waha Returned.  Now that's Akasta Ironspear (bison) and Mokwaha (Impala).  Now here's the thing - Mokwaha was (temporarily) blinded by a Sartarite war party many years ago. So perhaps he was the one who led the attack on the Pol Joni and the Sartarite War Party perhaps had kin among the Pol Joni giving them good reason to blind him.  

[Qizilbashwoman]

23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Does Kuschile work with other mounts?

If not, going to be a bit of a problem in most of Prax then...

so what we know about Kuschile Archery in Prax is that... it doesn't happen. The Sun Domers there don't even have horses.

The horse (and antecedents/relations, like the unicorns of Yelorna) are part of the specific practices of Solar faith and I'd say you had to be on a Horse (with capital letter, to indicate its mystic identity).

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

43 years old is new?

 

Hey, people are still calling Brian Johnson the new guy in AC DC 42 years later.

 

[radmonger]

It's not just Kuschile Archery; as far as I can see all the other RQ2 legacy cult-specific skills are a bit of a rules wart that don't really fit with the RQ:G model of a short list of universal skills. 

What would probably work better is to treat them as _cult secrets_, using the template:

If you know _a secret_, normally taught at _cult rank_,  then you may substiutute _this_ for _that skill_ under _these circumstances_.

So:

- if you know the secret of Kushcile Archery, you may substitute Yelmalio Cult Lore for Riding when using a bow from horseback.

- if you know the secret of the Peaceful Cut, then you may substitute Waha Cult Lore for Bargain when dealing with spirits killed under the terms of the Survival Covenant.

- if you know the secret of Sense Chaos, then you may use the passion Hate Chaos to replace Scan or Search when Chaos is suspected.

- if you know the secret of Dormal's Opening, then you may use the skill Shiphandling on open waters.

I think that scales a lot better to having that kind of as unique and useful heroquest rewards, wihtout ending up with a character sheet with a dozen such skills all at 15 to 25%...

 

 

[dumuzid]

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I wonder what Impala riders think about getting horse-related gifts and geases…

I seem to recall an Impala Yelmalion statted out in The Pegasus Plateau who got Speak With Impala rather than Speak With Horse from Yelmalio

[icebrand]

3 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I seem to recall an Impala Yelmalion statted out in The Pegasus Plateau who got Speak With Impala rather than Speak With Horse from Yelmalio

If im playing a beast nomad and i get "speak with horses" gift, then the GM and me are gonna have words (though burning down their house is also an option)