Some Fetch-ing Questions

[svensson]

I understand that a shaman's fetch is a separate entity resident on the Spirit Plane. I get that they hold a portion of the shaman's soul and that this duality allows the shaman to interact with the Spirit and Mundane Planes at the same time whereas most mortals can only perceive the Spirit Plane via spells. But this still leaves me with some questions.

Do fetches ever manifest in the Mundane Plane? .

Can they possess a material body?

Is a fetch an ally of its own free will or a controlled spirit?

If there is a significant difference between a fetch and a spirit, what is it?

[Bill the barbarian]

51 minutes ago, svensson said:

Do fetches ever manifest in the Mundane Plane? .

 

Unless this has really changed, they may manifest in a shadowy form like that of their type (animal fetish making the body look like the animal represented) in the empty shell of a realms-traveling shaman. As to the 2nd question, I believe the fetch becomes, or was, an awakened part of the shaman combining with the native spirit. I will guess at the third being that one is a soul and one is a spirit and I have no idea what the difference would be if this is so.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

19 minutes ago, svensson said:

...

Do fetches ever manifest in the Mundane Plane? .

I believe they can do so *if* they have the right magic.  I do not think it's a universal ability, so ... "sometimes" or "maybe" would be usable answers.

See also "MGF" for an entirely-different decision criterion!

 

20 minutes ago, svensson said:

...

Can they possess a material body?

I believe the fetch can possess the shaman's body when the shaman is off on the Spirit Plane.
This prevents any-old-spirit-who-wanders-by from doing the same thing.

Again, I'd go with sometimes/maybe/MGF to answer the more-general issue.

 

24 minutes ago, svensson said:

...

Is a fetch an ally of its own free will or a controlled spirit?

Free willed, but inherently linked to the shaman -- they share parts of their soul, after all (the death of either usually means the death of both)!


 

 

29 minutes ago, svensson said:

...

If there is a significant difference between a fetch and a spirit, what is it?

A piece of the shaman's soul seems like a significant difference.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Followup question: Does the fetch get a separate action when "in combat" (using strike ranks)?  e.g. can both the shaman and their fetch cast spells during a melee round?

[Bill the barbarian]

yep

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, svensson said:

Do fetches ever manifest in the Mundane Plane?

Yes, when the shaman discorporates - When manifest on the Mundane world, the fetch usually appears as an animal or other entity significant to the shaman, visible to anyone. (page 357), or the shaman has the shamanic ability of Materialize Fetch (page 360) or show spirit (page 361).

13 hours ago, svensson said:

Can they possess a material body?

If the shaman has the shamanic ability of Possession (page 360) or when the shaman is discorporate.

13 hours ago, svensson said:

Is a fetch an ally of its own free will or a controlled spirit?

It is the shaman. See page 355 The Fetch for other possible explanations dependant on the tradition.

13 hours ago, svensson said:

If there is a significant difference between a fetch and a spirit, what is it?

It's a part of the shaman's soul that extends into the spirit world.

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Followup question: Does the fetch get a separate action when "in combat" (using strike ranks)?  e.g. can both the shaman and their fetch cast spells during a melee round?

 

Yes.

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:37 PM, svensson said:

I understand that a shaman's fetch is a separate entity resident on the Spirit Plane. I g

Is a fetch an ally of its own free will or a controlled spirit?

I don't think it's quite correct to say that the fetch is a separate entity. The fetch is your magical self - it's a part of you that you have separated as an aspect of you. So it's neither free nor controlled - it's you, or a part of you.

23 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Followup question: Does the fetch get a separate action when "in combat" (using strike ranks)?  e.g. can both the shaman and their fetch cast spells during a melee round?

Yes (p. 356): "During combat, the fetch acts independently from the shaman, but uses the shaman’s DEX strike rank."

Edited May 29, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

Yes, when the shaman discorporates - When manifest on the Mundane world, the fetch usually appears as an animal or other entity significant to the shaman, visible to anyone. (page 357), or the shaman has the shamanic ability of Materialize Fetch (page 360) or show spirit (page 361).

It also exposes itself to the mundane world when it casts spells, which means it either actually has to manifest, or it does something similar: "If the fetch casts spells against a target in the Mundane World, only then can the fetch be targeted by spells emanating from the Mundane World."

[French Desperate WindChild]

I have read recently... but unable to remember where, a previous edition for sure... that shaman have spirit (the fetch) when other have soul (this kind of difference between great spirits and gods)

I don't know if it is still "canon" or if I misuderstood it or anything (would prefer - for a "simple" view - that shaman have soul and awaken spirit as a part of their soul when others have soul and sleeping spirit part of their soul)

[Darius West]

On 5/29/2022 at 5:37 AM, svensson said:

Do fetches ever manifest in the Mundane Plane?

I direct your attention to RQG page 306 Shamanic Abilities: Materialize Fetch.

On 5/29/2022 at 5:37 AM, svensson said:

Can they possess a material body?

 Same page, Possession, also, Waha (and other) Shamans can put their fetches into their mounts.

On 5/29/2022 at 5:37 AM, svensson said:

Is a fetch an ally of its own free will or a controlled spirit?

Fetches are unique, but they are products of their Shaman.  They generally have less free will than Allied Spirits as a result, but nothing is fixed in stone.

On 5/29/2022 at 5:37 AM, svensson said:

If there is a significant difference between a fetch and a spirit, what is it?

Shamans are always in the Mortal realm and the Spirit Realm, and are creatures of two realms.  The Fetch is the portion of the Shaman that is on the Spirit Plane when the Shaman is on the Mortal Realm, and when the Shaman goes into the Spirit Realm, then the Fetch minds the body in the Mortal realm.  They are binary and inextricably bound to each other. 

Spirits are not like Fetches.  Spirits exist only in the spirit realm, and that is why they are mainly invisible.  Spirits are not dead, and don't go towards Death the way dead sentient mortals do.  

[Glorion]

I have a fetching rules question which is rather important, if you have a shaman as I do. On p. 356, it says "when discorporate, the shaman cannot use the fetch's magic points to defend or attack, though they can use the fetch's magic points to fuel spells." IMHO a rather ambiguous statement, as on p. 368, it says "The shaman can draw magic points from the fetch at will, to replace their own, even during spirit combat." So is that using them to defend or attack, or just sort of like when a healer heals you during a battle? This sounds like a fine point, but in practice it's a huge difference, as crits on spirit combat go through all spiritual defenses, so then any fairly junior shaman is taking life in hands whenever he or she visits the spirit plane, unless it's possible to draw magic points from the fetch to heal after a crit.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Glorion

[Frp]

4 hours ago, Glorion said:

I have a fetching rules question which is rather important, if you have a shaman as I do. On p. 356, it says "when discorporate, the shaman cannot use the fetch's magic points to defend or attack, though they can use the fetch's magic points to fuel spells." IMHO a rather ambiguous statement, as on p. 368, it says "The shaman can draw magic points from the fetch at will, to replace their own, even during spirit combat." So is that using them to defend or attack, or just sort of like when a healer heals you during a battle? This sounds like a fine point, but in practice it's a huge difference, as crits on spirit combat go through all spiritual defenses, so then any fairly junior shaman is taking life in hands whenever he or she visits the spirit plane, unless it's possible to draw magic points from the fetch to heal after a crit.

A lot of that has been corrected. See: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-15-shamans/

I think the intent of the original text was that the shaman couldn't add their POW to the fetch's POW for opposed POW vs POW rolls. All of that was changed. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

42 minutes ago, Frp said:

A lot of that has been corrected. See: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-15-shamans/

I think the intent of the original text was that the shaman couldn't add their POW to the fetch's POW for opposed POW vs POW rolls. All of that was changed. 

The one thing clear from that massively long and often contradictory correction thread is that the fetch always adds in POW v POW.

 

Thanks for the link.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Runeblogger]

If a shaman falls unconscious during combat, can her fetch still attack enemies with spells?

[Scotty]

On 6/2/2022 at 5:07 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The one thing clear from that massively long and often contradictory correction thread is that the fetch always adds in POW v POW.

Please PM contradictions and I can correct the thread. Thanks.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 6/16/2022 at 5:57 AM, Scotty said:

Please PM contradictions and I can correct the thread. Thanks.

Will do.

BTW, if the fetch always adds its POW to the shaman, pretty quickly said shaman is going to have a heck of a time making POW gain rolls.  Just saying...  Am I missing something there?

[Frp]

20 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Will do.

BTW, if the fetch always adds its POW to the shaman, pretty quickly said shaman is going to have a heck of a time making POW gain rolls.  Just saying...  Am I missing something there?

Roll based on the shaman's POW. Adding the fetch's POW to the shaman's POW is for opposed rolls. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Frp

[Rodney Dangerduck]

56 minutes ago, Frp said:

Roll based on the shaman's POW. Adding the fetch's POW to the shaman's POW is for opposed rolls. 

That's what we have been doing.  However, the player of the shaman character noticed that the "corrections" page in Well of Daliath change the wording to 

"The fetch’s POW is always added to that of the shaman’s. This combined POW is used in all situations involving the shaman’s POW."

This is, needless to say, a huge change.  At first glance, it helps the shaman a lot.  However, pne of our keen thinking players notice that using this change, it is much harder for a shaman to get their combined POW up to large (25 or higher) values.  They more or less "top out" at ~21, like most PCs.  They can no longer simply blow away opponents with offensive magic in POW v POW contests.  I don't think this was the intent, but could be wrong.

[Scotty]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

BTW, if the fetch always adds its POW to the shaman, pretty quickly said shaman is going to have a heck of a time making POW gain rolls.  Just saying...  Am I missing something there?

POW gain rolls are clearly the exception, and it's not possible to cover every exception to the rules, but here it was assumed it was clear.

Quote

Then subtract the adventurer’s current POW from that total.

Making a POW Gain Roll, page 418.

 

[PhilHibbs]

What are the down sides of a shaman giving all but one point of POW to their fetch? It does seem that a 100% chance of a POW gain is rather attractive.

1. Disease - Soul Waste would be instant death.
2. Sacrifice - if you find yourself needing to use some POW for something, you have none to spare.

Any others?

How low would you go?

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

What are the down sides of a shaman giving all but one point of POW to their fetch? It does seem that a 100% chance of a POW gain is rather attractive.

1. Disease - Soul Waste would be instant death.
2. Sacrifice - if you find yourself needing to use some POW for something, you have none to spare.

Any others?

How low would you go?

Would say skill bonus ? I don’t use the fetch pow to determine the skill bonus ( may I be wrong ? )

so having -10% or -20% (difference if you were pow 20)  in a lot of skills is a big issue 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

What are the down sides of a shaman giving all but one point of POW to their fetch?

Maybe not one, but a shaman, under the errata rules, should certainly drop to the 2-4 range and stay there forever.

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

POW gain rolls are clearly the exception, and it's not possible to cover every exception to the rules, but here it was assumed it was clear.

 

Is spell casting ability also an exception? ie, does the shaman add their Fetch's POW to determine the % of spirit magic casting ability? (and, by extension, would the Fetch add the shaman's POW to their casting %?

Given that in RQG, spirit magic is a bit of the spirit attached to the being, I don't think these should be combined (especially since we need to define what spells are where).

And, therefore to respond to @PhilHibbs, that could be another reason to have a high POW.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is spell casting ability also an exception? ie, does the shaman add their Fetch's POW to determine the % of spirit magic casting ability? (and, by extension, would the Fetch add the shaman's POW to their casting %?

Given that in RQG, spirit magic is a bit of the spirit attached to the being, I don't think these should be combined (especially since we need to define what spells are where).

And, therefore to respond to @PhilHibbs, that could be another reason to have a high POW.

Okay okay but apart from disease resistance, sacrifice, category modifiers, and the ability to ever cast a spell...

what has having a high POW ever done for us?

Edited June 20, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Okay okay but apart from disease resistance, sacrifice, category modifiers, and the ability to ever cast a spell...

what has having a high POW ever done for us?

This seems for me sufficient.