Some Fetch-ing Questions

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

(Emphasis added).  Waha doesn't have Priests. As noted a few sentences later, they have shamen who "serve as" priests.  Presumably to initiate people and lead services and that sort of thing.  In all other respects, they are shamen.

Therefore, only 90% of their time, but no +20% POW gain roll, no Ally Spirits, etc...

They do count as priests apparently, and this is going to be made clear in the GaGoG book. They won’t get allied spirits though as you can’t have both that and a fetch.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

They won’t get allied spirits though as you can’t have both that and a fetch.

Ummm... why? Logically (and RAW), there's no good reason not.

(OP you say? Well, RQ has never been about balance...)

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

which is some "standard", no ? I mean as a shaman I would play my fetch to work with me, even in fight, except when I fear it will be destroyed ?

You need to purchase that as a shamanic ability... and yes, as you highlighted, your fetch then becomes vulnerable to being destroyed...

 

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It should be instead of the priest bonus, they certainly shouldn't stack.

I'd allow it to stack (or, at least, there's a different ability that would stack with it that you'd need to pay for).

 

12 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And it is long to compensate the loss. With the "POW + POW", the shaman has the same % to cast a spell than previously, the same skill bonus, etc.. and it is just a progression

I'd expect most shamans would leave their personal POW at around 16-19 (unless they have a higher Max POW).

It's sort of amusing that Assistant Shamans get an automatic +1POW per year, but the full shaman doesn't.

 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm... why? Logically (and RAW), there's no good reason not.

(OP you say? Well, RQ has never been about balance...)

Its a Gloranthan cosmology thing. You have one “spiritual organ” and how it develops determines of you get a fetch or an allied spirit (or, in the old days, a familiar).

[Shiningbrow]

26 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Its a Gloranthan cosmology thing. You have one “spiritual organ” and how it develops determines of you get a fetch or an allied spirit (or, in the old days, a familiar).

That sounds like a hold-over from RQ2 days.

There's no real reason why you can't have both.. the Fetch is an awakened part of your own self. An Allied spirit is a spirit sent from the deity/great spirit to accompany you and has a special (POWered) bond, such that you can commune with it.

And a familiar is a creature which you've given part of yourself to in order to make a spiritual connection.

IMG, one could have all 3 with no issues at all (well, maybe the occasional (or regular) argument between them all).

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

You need to purchase that as a shamanic ability... and yes, as you highlighted, your fetch then becomes vulnerable to being destroyed...

for me not

it is the standard (p356)

Quote

Fetches and Combat

During combat, the fetch acts independently from the shaman, but uses the shaman’s DEX strike rank. If the fetch casts spells against a target in the Mundane World, only then can the fetch be targeted by spells emanating from the Mundane World.

the specific ability I see is materialize fetch (is it what you mean ?)

but that is not to cast spells, that is to have a "physical" fetch (if not, I don't understand the bestiary reference )

I may have misunderstood however what is this ability

 

[Shiningbrow]

11 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me not

it is the standard (p356)

the specific ability I see is materialize fetch (is it what you mean ?)

but that is not to cast spells, that is to have a "physical" fetch (if not, I don't understand the bestiary reference )

I may have misunderstood however what is this ability

 

Yes, that ability.

Perhaps I'm not interpreting it the way it's intended...

either way, yes, the fetch is vulnerable if it starts casting spells. And... a low POW fetch doing that being hit by a magical damaging attack is going to kill that shaman very quickly! (although, a low POW fetch shouldn't really be doing all that much anyway...)

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

........

It's sort of amusing that Assistant Shamans get an automatic +1POW per year, but the full shaman doesn't.

 

So it is not unreasonable that the full shaman gets the priest's POW gain bonus.  And of course a shamans's daily work is overcoming spirits so he should expect a POW check every season.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

That sounds like a hold-over from RQ2 days.

There's no real reason why you can't have both..

I’m going by what Greg has said at cons since after RQ3 went out of print.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

13 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I’m going by what Greg has said at cons since after RQ3 went out of print.

Good point. 

There's also the fact that we don't encounter powerful heroic Rune Lords who also happen to be Shamen. Following the @Shiningbrow logic, there's also no real reason that Argrath, Jareel and Kallyr can't have both Allied Spirits and Fetches.  Yet they don't.

[Eff]

Do we know that they don't? I mean, I think that the way that Greg apparently phrased this at conventions suggests that allied spirits are actually just a part of the self, because it makes little sense for the "spiritual organ" of a person to affect their capacity to have a connection with a spirit in such a way that they can either have a divided self or be able to interact intimately with an external spirit. But I don't think there's anywhere near a definitive enough "this is what these characters have in total" from any publication to say that Argrath doesn't have a fetch and an allied spirit, eg. 

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

Do we know that they don't?

Well, it's impossible, but that doesn't strictly mean that they haven't done it. That's what being a hero is all about, doing the impossible.

Of course I could be wrong. The "spiritual organ" thing might have been a passing notion that no longer represents current Gloranthan thinking, which also Will Vary.

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well, it's impossible, but that doesn't strictly mean that they haven't done it. That's what being a hero is all about, doing the impossible.

Of course I could be wrong. The "spiritual organ" thing might have been a passing notion that no longer represents current Gloranthan thinking, which also Will Vary.

Yeah, and the funny thing about a spiritual organ is that it doesn't have to be dependent on a particular body. Someone could have, for example, a soul and a hero-soul, or a spirit and a godhead, etc. Of course, at that point, it's academic whether you have an "allied spirit" or a "favorite among your court of lesser daimons", etc. 

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So it is not unreasonable that the full shaman gets the priest's POW gain bonus.  And of course a shamans's daily work is overcoming spirits so he should expect a POW check every season.

I'm thinking more about high POW shamans. Part of this discussion has been about increasing a Fetch's POW when you're near your limits. A guaranteed +1 POW that the student gets, but the full shaman doesn't. Odd.

 

(note that Gid Talkers also get +20%. And I'd expect the students to be battling spirits every season as well, and other things to guarantee a POW gain roll)

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm thinking more about high POW shamans. Part of this discussion has been about increasing a Fetch's POW when you're near your limits. A guaranteed +1 POW that the student gets, but the full shaman doesn't. Odd.

I can't find this +1 POW, where is it?

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I can't find this +1 POW, where is it?

p353

"The assistant shaman also receives 1 free spell point of spirit magic per season and an automatic 1-point increase in POW at the end of every year"

[French Desperate WindChild]

From my perspective, with my too few knowledge, i cannot imagine an allied spirit as a part of the character soul

It is an ally, you don't ally with yourself

it is sent by a god from the godtime, not from you

it can go and break the alliance, leaving you as you were  before the alliance. You still are yourself

 

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

I think it's just that the rules cover what adventurers are likely to need to know. If your assistant shaman character spends a year being an assistant shaman for 90% of their time, they get a point of POW. Is this likely to be relevant to an adventurer that is a full shaman? Maybe, maybe not. Nobody wrote that paragraph, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. This is not a game where "everything that is not mandatory is forbidden". Of course a shaman is going to get a POW gain on average once a year, if not more often if they are also a priest with +20% (or Soul Expansion, if you ignore The Well).

On the other hand, what is not entirely clear is that this is in addition to POW gain rolls for adventuring. It does mention in the seasonal admin section that if you spend too much time away from your occupation then you don't get the income for it, but it doesn't say whether that affects the free point of POW. I think it probably should.

Edited June 23, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

Once you are a hero, you can have pluripresence similar to the shaman's double presence in the mundane and the spirit world. WIth one of your selves on the spirit plane, the difference to having a fetch wouldn't be that big, except that you can leave the spirit plane if you wish.

[Shiningbrow]

21 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think it's just that the rules cover what adventurers are likely to need to know. If your assistant shaman character spends a year being an assistant shaman for 90% of their time, they get a point of POW. Is this likely to be relevant to an adventurer that is a full shaman? Maybe, maybe not. Nobody wrote that paragraph, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. This is not a game where "everything that is not mandatory is forbidden". Of course a shaman is going to get a POW gain on average once a year, if not more often if they are also a priest with +20% (or Soul Expansion, if you ignore The Well).

On the other hand, what is not entirely clear is that this is in addition to POW gain rolls for adventuring. It does mention in the seasonal admin section that if you spend too much time away from your occupation then you don't get the income for it, but it doesn't say whether that affects the free point of POW. I think it probably should.

My main thought about this is that if your POW is currently at 20, a shaman (or apprentice) only has a 5% chance of getting that final point, per season. Which is obviously unlikely.

However, if there's a guaranteed point, then it's somewhat significant.

[PhilHibbs]

13 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

My main thought about this is that if your POW is currently at 20, a shaman (or apprentice) only has a 5% chance of getting that final point, per season. Which is obviously unlikely.

However, if there's a guaranteed point, then it's somewhat significant.

That's true. Keeping your POW at 18 though, with the +20% chance for priesthood, means you're more likely to get 2 points than you are to get 1. It's something like 33% vs 31%, the total chance of some increase is over 88%. However, you're still on average better off keeping POW at 20 and taking the automatic one point.

If you lower your POW to 16, however, you're better off doing that and rolling than sticking at 20 and taking the automatic 1 point.

Also, if The Well is to be taken literally, you add your fetch's POW to yours to determine whether you have POW 18 or not to remain a priest.