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Which is the worst cult...


Shiningbrow

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...when you rune out of Rune Points?

Yes, this thread is inspired by the other couple that have both been locked down, and I didn't get the opportunity to make this sort of comment/observation.

The argument about the effectiveness of a cult seems to have mostly centred around how good your Rune spells are. So, what happens when you're out???

I'd suggest that, largely, they start to really even out...

(well, except for sorcerous cults... and if you're a shaman...).

Bypassing the literal subject, how do the cults compare.

I think that cults like Humakt, Stormbull, Babeester Gor, Chalana Arroy have significance merely by having a reputation. Ie, whetehr you have RPs left or not, those first 3 are going to be the first targets in a combat situation. The Chalana's are always welcome in civilised places. Eurmalis are always treated badly (even if they haven't done anything... (obviously, yet)).

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If you are out of the Empire, definitely Seven Mothers (or other lunar cults). Most people hate you and most of your spirit magic is costlier, so you better make good use of that Befuddle Spell, which, luckily for the loonies, it's one of the best spells in all RQ. OFC I'm not counting chaotic cults (or am I), bc if you are an Initiate of Thed and run out of RP in hostile territory, you better pray.

And yes, I think ppl put too much importance in the RS, I know they are the "Big Guns", but in my short experience as GM they are overall less useful than SM spells. All Lightbringers are absolute beasts in SM bc of the great net of cult associations, and Ernalda shows here why she is such an important cult in Theyalan societies, bc she has great SM which she gladly shares with all her husband-protectors. 

Spoiler

OFC, this has a bad side for Mo-Baustran Yelmalions, bc even though their god is a husband-protector of Ernalda, their misogynistic repression of its cult degrades her into a "mere" Grain Goddess. We don't have the write-up for the cult yet, but I would say that it must have some fewer spells than it's greater version. So their ways of gender make them enjoy less powerful magic, well, I'm sure they wouldn't trade it.

 

Edited by Jape_Vicho

:50-power-truth::50-sub-light::50-power-truth:

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If you are out of Rune Points then you rely on Spirit Magic.

If the only Spirit Magic you have is Cult Spirit Magic, then war cults are useful in combat.

However, does everything have to be about combat?

Lanbril has a spell that makes him unrecognisable, excellent for sneaking and thieving.

Water cultists have a spell that makes it easier to see things in or out of water.

Aldrya cultists have a spell that makes the spirits of the plants that they harvest happy.

So, it all depends on what you are trying to do.

 

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Etyries with an ability to trade for Spirit Spells can have an interesting mix of unusual spells. If you do not consider Spirit Magic, then special skills (exp Bribe, Butchery, Sense Chaos) as well as Gifts/Geas from certain cults, Yelmalio/Humakt/Thanatar, can give you a real boost.

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8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

...when you rune out of Rune Points?

First, let's do best:

Obvious but boring answer is any shaman cult, assuming you've reached Shaman. Also Red Goddess, if Lunar Magic stays the same as in RQ3. Or Lhankor Mhy if you have Sorcery.

Humakt still has the outstanding gifts, very likely making him the best regular no-magic cult.

Yelmalio is pretty good when you discount the atrocious Rune Magic.

Worst though? Good question. Possibly Waha since you can't even get proper Heal. And Eiritha has really bad Spirit Magic and a bunch of restricted spells. Engizi also has a minimal spirit magic selection.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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Shouldn't we take skills into account certain cults can shine for this reason. Engizi for example has boating, speak boatspeech, and swim which can be used to help cross any river. I was apart a game where we players decided to take the longer walking route rather than the quicker route by boat because none of us had boat and didn't trust the skills of a random boatsman to lug heavily armed warriors, nobles, ect down the river for a week and risk drowning cause nobody knows how to swim all that well

In truth I don't think worst is a good word for any cult. There are great cults for sure but not worst cults. Specialist may be a better term.

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Honestly, this is a very complicated topic. I think that restricting yourself to the core book and assuming a freshly created character, it has to be Seven Mothers because you actually get less Spirit Magic at creation than any other cult. You have 5 points of free spirit magic, and there are no spells with a 0.5-point cost, so you'll always have one left over. I don't think there's any clarification on whether you can save the free points to combine with purchasing spirit magic at character creation, but in any case, that's still an extra expenditure just to be able to use that 1 leftover point after you take Befuddle and Glamour and want to add a humble Heal 1 or Mobility.

Your free cult skills at character creation are Speak Other Language (New Pelorian), Read/Write (New Pelorian), and Sing, which are frankly of very situational usefulness- the first two are beneficial if you're playing in Lunar territory, but not really useful at all if you're playing anywhere else, except as a way to pass secret information, possibly. Sing is of course a relatively valuable skill, since it's a social one, but it's also the most common cult skill.

Now, you do get discounts on training 1H Sword (Kopis), Scan, Listen, Lunar Empire Lore, etc. once you've created your character, and against the magic disadvantages you do have access to, by the rules, any spirit magic, and by the likely intent, any spirit magic that isn't a cult secret, with that double cost. So you have some things that counter the handicap you receive for picking the Lunar cult for an ex-Lunar character.

But all this is assuming the social circumstances of a Sartar-focused game, because in a Lunar-focused game I think the extent to which 7M is kinda generic works for its status as the "base cult" for both the Provinces and, in recent material, the Heartlands.

EDIT: And of course, it probably reflects the reality of Glorantha that it's an uphill struggle for the Seven Mothers cult to integrate itself into the universe and that's why it costs you twice as much to muster the spiritual strength necessary to reattach severed limbs, etc.

Edited by Eff
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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

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3 hours ago, Eff said:

Honestly, this is a very complicated topic. I think that restricting yourself to the core book and assuming a freshly created character, it has to be Seven Mothers because you actually get less Spirit Magic at creation than any other cult. You have 5 points of free spirit magic, and there are no spells with a 0.5-point cost, so you'll always have one left over. I don't think there's any clarification on whether you can save the free points to combine with purchasing spirit magic at character creation, but in any case, that's still an extra expenditure just to be able to use that 1 leftover point after you take Befuddle and Glamour and want to add a humble Heal 1 or Mobility.

Your free cult skills at character creation are Speak Other Language (New Pelorian), Read/Write (New Pelorian), and Sing, which are frankly of very situational usefulness- the first two are beneficial if you're playing in Lunar territory, but not really useful at all if you're playing anywhere else, except as a way to pass secret information, possibly. Sing is of course a relatively valuable skill, since it's a social one, but it's also the most common cult skill.

Now, you do get discounts on training 1H Sword (Kopis), Scan, Listen, Lunar Empire Lore, etc. once you've created your character, and against the magic disadvantages you do have access to, by the rules, any spirit magic, and by the likely intent, any spirit magic that isn't a cult secret, with that double cost. So you have some things that counter the handicap you receive for picking the Lunar cult for an ex-Lunar character.

But all this is assuming the social circumstances of a Sartar-focused game, because in a Lunar-focused game I think the extent to which 7M is kinda generic works for its status as the "base cult" for both the Provinces and, in recent material, the Heartlands.

EDIT: And of course, it probably reflects the reality of Glorantha that it's an uphill struggle for the Seven Mothers cult to integrate itself into the universe and that's why it costs you twice as much to muster the spiritual strength necessary to reattach severed limbs, etc.

Wait I thought the double cost was affecting the price of learning the spells not how many MPs they take to cast, have I been completely misreading all the cult spirit magic stuff? 

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12 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Wait I thought the double cost was affecting the price of learning the spells not how many MPs they take to cast, have I been completely misreading all the cult spirit magic stuff? 

That's what I mean, the price of learning the spells and the five free points at character creation. You'd need a 0.5-MP spell to use up that leftover free point at character creation.

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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3 hours ago, Eff said:

EDIT: And of course, it probably reflects the reality of Glorantha that it's an uphill struggle for the Seven Mothers cult to integrate itself into the universe and that's why it costs you twice as much to muster the spiritual strength necessary to reattach severed limbs, etc.

I missunderstood  this as meaning it took twice as much MP to cast non cult spells

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12 hours ago, Eff said:

That's what I mean, the price of learning the spells and the five free points at character creation. You'd need a 0.5-MP spell to use up that leftover free point at character creation.

RQG p7:

Quote

Whenever a division result creates a fraction, always round in favor of the players.

 

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12 hours ago, Eff said:

That's what I mean, the price of learning the spells and the five free points at character creation. You'd need a 0.5-MP spell to use up that leftover free point at character creation.

I'd just give the character the additional point anyway. 5 points of spirit magic is 5 points of spirit magic.

Perhaps the line is only there for those who want to pay for a couple of other spells at character creation?

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21 hours ago, soltakss said:

f the only Spirit Magic you have is Cult Spirit Magic, then war cults are useful in combat.

However, does everything have to be about combat?

Humakt starts to look a bit pale now, not having any Associate Cults to buy their spirit magic from (RAW).

Granted, they do have a fairly nice list of available spells, and good skills (for combat).

However, I'd presume most Orlanthi would be happy to have them buy spells off them (and probably at a reduced rate - but not down to half price).

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41 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

RQG p7:

 

But there's no division here, only multiplication. The issue is that for every spirit magic spell except Glamour and Befuddle, it takes twice the usual cost, in free points or in money, for members of the Seven Mothers cult to learn it, so at a minimum every spell costs two free points. If the answer is that these things are meant to resolve in the player's favor... then you could just buy very large spirit magic spells for a starting 7M cultist, because their 5 points would be a fractional quantity of a Heal 6 or Bladesharp 9. Which is very obviously a distorted reading. 

28 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd just give the character the additional point anyway. 5 points of spirit magic is 5 points of spirit magic.

Perhaps the line is only there for those who want to pay for a couple of other spells at character creation?

That doesn't scan. The context there is "what spells you can have at character creation", and the choices are "Glamour, Befuddle, or any spell at twice the listed cost," so if it's only meant to affect buying spells with starting money, 7M cultists would seem to start with only two spells available and would still lose that fifth point, as those two spells would take up 4 points. 

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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19 hours ago, Eff said:

I think that restricting yourself to the core book and assuming a freshly created character, it has to be Seven Mothers because you actually get less Spirit Magic at creation than any other cult. You have 5 points of free spirit magic, and there are no spells with a 0.5-point cost, so you'll always have one left over.

I'm slightly confused by this. Seven Mother gets access to all spirit magic. You don't need to buy it in creation, but you can only choose 5 pts.

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17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm slightly confused by this. Seven Mother gets access to all spirit magic. You don't need to buy it in creation, but you can only choose 5 pts.

So do I, I always understood it about the price (silver) during the play .

 

 

Quote

Befuddle and Glamour are provided at normal cult prices. All other spirit magic is available at twice the normal cult cost

 the confusion seems to me the twice cost ( 2 creation points = 1 spell point).

that's the issue with lunar magic, once illuminate you're lost, before it you're lost

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27 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm slightly confused by this. Seven Mother gets access to all spirit magic. You don't need to buy it in creation, but you can only choose 5 pts.

This is the way I would expect it to work, but p. 77 - which is exclusively about character creation - says ”Cult Spirit Magic: Befuddle (2 pts.) and Glamour (2 pts.) at the normal point cost. Any other spirit magic spell at twice the normal point cost.”

Taken as written, this has to refer to starting Spirit Magic. And in turn means you can never start with five points.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is the way I would expect it to work, but p. 77 - which is exclusively about character creation - says ”Cult Spirit Magic: Befuddle (2 pts.) and Glamour (2 pts.) at the normal point cost. Any other spirit magic spell at twice the normal point cost.”

Taken as written, this has to refer to starting Spirit Magic. And in turn means you can never start with five points.

Yes. I don't understand why Befuddle and Glamour are set out as specific examples if you're supposed to be able to take any spirit magic point-for-point rather than at 2x normal point cost in character creation (just like the monetary cost is doubled after character creation). 

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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It's a cut and paste from the main cult write up... Those two are cult specific and likely more common - so all initiates will have those two (for 4pts) and anything else that can be had for a point.

Daka Fal is similar, but prefers no specific magic.

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