1h weapon parry & realism

[icebrand]

Did people (historically) parry with 1h spear, axes or maces?

2h style you parry with the haft, i can picture that, but 1h?

Like, ive seen those guys fighting on YouTube and from the looks of it, you can't?

I'm considering making those weapons parry at 1/2%; if you have one of those you either bring a shield or dodge! 

Anyone with real life (like HEMA or SCA) experience can chime in? 

Well, thanks in advance!!! 

[g33k]

52 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Did people (historically) parry with 1h spear, axes or maces?

2h style you parry with the haft, i can picture that, but 1h?

Like, ive seen those guys fighting on YouTube and from the looks of it, you can't?

I'm considering making those weapons parry at 1/2%; if you have one of those you either bring a shield or dodge! 

Anyone with real life (like HEMA or SCA) experience can chime in? 

Well, thanks in advance!!! 

It's worth differentiating between a pure "block" (such as with a shield -- forcefully interposing a defensive strike (and/or sheer mass) against the force of an attacking strike) vs. other sorts of parry, which often have a more-sustained contact of defensive weapon *guiding* the incoming strike away.

Look at modern fencing (foil, epee, saber).  All are 1H, all use parries.

Can a 1H longsword/smallsword/armingsword/etc forcefully "block" a 2H battleaxe/greatsword/etc?  Well, probably not, no.
 

Edited June 5, 2022 by g33k

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Where the rules start going funky is when an iron 1H sword parries more damage than a large shield.

[icebrand]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Look at modern fencing (foil, epee, saber).  All are 1H, all use parries.

Can a 1H longsword/smallsword/armingsword/etc forcefully "block" a 2H battleaxe/greatsword/etc?  Well, probably not, no.
 

Yes swords can parry. I was asking about 1h axe/mace/spear, who can all parry 2h, but 1h i just can't picture it.

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Yes swords can parry. I was asking about 1h axe/mace/spear, who can all parry 2h, but 1h i just can't picture it.

There was one of those videos on YouTube, where they interview a weapons expert. This one was interviewing Matt Easton (Schola Gladiatoria). They had him watch several flics and comment on the fighting scenes. One of the movies was Troy, specifically the fight between Achilles and Hector. He stated that for the most part, it was a fairly accurate representation of Spear and Shield dueling. There are several instances within the fight where they use the spears (1h) to parry or block the other spear. In fact, he states that Medieval treatises often show how one would use a spear in just such a manner.

In other Schola Gladiatoria (proper) vids, Easton has stated that parrying with axes and maces is possible, but the forward heavy nature of the weapons makes it awkward at best.

So, yes-ish? Probably in duals, as the movements would not be conducive to a shield wall or phalanx.

SDLeary

[svensson]

8 hours ago, icebrand said:

Did people (historically) parry with 1h spear, axes or maces?

2h style you parry with the haft, i can picture that, but 1h?

Like, ive seen those guys fighting on YouTube and from the looks of it, you can't?

I'm considering making those weapons parry at 1/2%; if you have one of those you either bring a shield or dodge! 

Anyone with real life (like HEMA or SCA) experience can chime in? 

Well, thanks in advance!!! 

Yes, you can block edged weapons with hafted weapons. Some weapons, even in the Bronze Age, had a protective metal strip on the haft or were even forged entirely of metal. Yes, this was much more common after the Renaissance but examples do exist in both Egypt and Greece of bronze axe and mace heads with long enough sockets to protect the haft.

As I see it, the game system takes the relative fragility of axes and maces into account in their AP and I don't see much need to adjust the game over it. Frankly, it's a bit of a ticky-tack suggestion that would slow the combat down.

Edited June 5, 2022 by svensson

[Mugen]

7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Where the rules start going funky is when an iron 1H sword parries more damage than a large shield.

That's the problem when the damage you parry is primarily a function of your weapon's solidity.

[JRE]

Historically, bronze's poor (compared to iron) edge retention and its good resistance made it possible or even necessary to have points and balanced blades, as long as you were not facing iron weapons, which could break points or leaf shaped blades. That makes it easier to parry bronze weapons with other bronze weapons, and quite hard to break wooden hafts with a bronze blade. So parrying bronze weapons was relatively easy and you did not need extensive haft reinforcement.  Unless there is magic involved... 

So, bronze weapons had their own limitations and requirements, and rapier like blades are more primitive than the leaf shaped later blades, themselves a consequence of bronze's poor edge to narrow the striking area of the edge. Just the opposite of iron, when pure thrusting blades came later. 

The problem of bronze weapons with keeping their edge is why most historical bronze weapons need a point or a narrow striking area (such as dagger axes). However traditional Glorantha imagery uses lots of edged iron age weapons, from broadswords to bearded axes, or even two handed swords. We can assume magic allows these weapons the cutting ability of iron or steel, but that will require different requirements for parries. It is no longer a problem of deflecting a point, as all the edge is now dangerous, so you need guards and other protection for the hands that were not so important before.

Real weapons are designed as a function of their use. Weapons intended to be used for parrying on their own are built differently from weapons intended to be used with a shield. Such weapons can be top heavy, having a heavy impact but being less mobile. They do not need a reinforced haft because you do not intend to parry with them. They can be cheaper.

But with good metal and if cost is not a factor you may have good parrying axes. A good example are the full metal axes and maces used in Persia and India. These are made to fight as main weapons, usually in pairs or with a buckler, with all metal constructions and often weapon catching hooks or even handguards. They have light heads because you need a mass center closer to the grip to parry effectively. They were popular because those areas still used chainmail and lamellar armor, which is practically impervious to sword edges, and hard to thrust through. They had their own manuals on how to fight with them, though quite different from the Western ones. But these are all steel.

Until modern times only duelists and people who fight outside normal warfare would think of parrying with anything but a shield.

Gladiators are a good example. Only a late type, the retiarius, did not have a shield. All the other main types used different weapons and armor, and different shield sizes, but they all used shields.

That is not to say that 1H weapons were not used to parry, but its prevalence was linked also to metallurgical advances. Only when you have plentiful good quality steel may you have long quillions able to withstand blows. The increasing importance of the sword guards can be seen in viking swords between the VIIIth and XIth centuries and it is due to the better quality of steel that allows tapering blades with points and longer and thinner sword guards. The tapering point is important because it allows to move the center of mass closer to the hilt, which is critical for a fast recovery from a parry.

The Persian fighting axes mentioned above also require plentiful good steel, and that is why they were prevalent from the XVth to the XIXth centuries.

To parry effectively a weapon needs to be designed that way, but most weapons can be done so. Usually you increase cost and decrease impact ability, but I do not think that is important for the game purpose. 

As another example, the yataghan is a much better cutting weapon than a sabre. But the sabre displaced the yataghan because it can be used to defend. As shields become useless against firearms, sidearms become more defensive.

 

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

Did people (historically) parry with 1h spear, axes or maces?

2h style you parry with the haft, i can picture that, but 1h?

Like, ive seen those guys fighting on YouTube and from the looks of it, you can't?

I'm considering making those weapons parry at 1/2%; if you have one of those you either bring a shield or dodge! 

Anyone with real life (like HEMA or SCA) experience can chime in? 

Well, thanks in advance!!! 

One of the things about BRP is that it takes all kinds of weapon defense, mash them into one activity called "parry", and have it actually be blocking. This is a simplification of reality, of course, but works decently well. So in BRP, you have to be able to "parry" with one-handed weapons, as this is the only defensive action really available, and obviously people defend with one-handed weapons all the time when they don't have a shield - this is perfectly obvious if you look at Medieval HEMA, traditional sabre fencing, and so on. 

What BRP does do is sell shields dramatically short. It's just a vastly better defensive armament than your offensive weapon. Put someone with a spear up against someone with a sword, and the spear wins (as in, you can give a HEMA newbie a spear and a very quick introduction, and things will go this way against sword experts). Give each a shield, and it's a pretty even matchup. In one of the Icelandic sagas, it's noted as remarkable that someone without a shield won against someone with one. Shields are awesome, in a way BRP doesn't even remotely represent (one PC in my group carries a shield but tends to mostly parry with his sword anyway - his skill is higher, it's what he Inspires to anyway, and in some fights, the damage output from  parries can rival that of attacks - and that just feels wrong). It has often been noted that the actual main weapon of the roman legionnaire was the shield, not the short sword.

One possible easy fix here would be to dramatically increase the Base Chance of shields - I don't think 40-50% would be uncalled for. Or you could halve the chance for weapons the way you suggest, but in that case, I would use that for all non-shield weapons - the Greatsword is already far and away the best weapon in the game, no need to make it even better. This halving would also make fights shorter and bloodier, which might or might not be desirable.

(Speaking of, the other thing BRP typically does poorly is weapon reach. I really liked the RQ6/Mythras solution here, where each weapon has a preferred range, and you start off at the longest one and have to make an effort if you want to get in closer. What shields and heavy armor allow is for the attacker to eat a thrust on the way in.)

Edited June 5, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

What BRP does do is sell shields dramatically short

RQG encourages parrying with your weapon, since, unlike RQ2, it "comes free" with your weapon skill, and, should you augment your weapon skill, or use a Trance spell, it boosts attack and parry.

[Kloster]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

Look at modern fencing (foil, epee, saber).  All are 1H, all use parries.

Yes, but all are sufficiently light to allow for low inertia and thus quick recovery after the parry.

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

RQG encourages parrying with your weapon, since, unlike RQ2, it "comes free" with your weapon skill, and, should you augment your weapon skill, or use a Trance spell, it boosts attack and parry.

Yes, this is one of the problems of the attack and parry merged in a single skill.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

(Speaking of, the other thing BRP typically does poorly is weapon reach. I really liked the RQ6/Mythras solution here, where each weapon has a preferred range, and you start off at the longest one and have to make an effort if you want to get in closer. What shields and heavy armor allow is for the attacker to eat a thrust on the way in.)

BRP manages weapon reach with the Strike Ranks. With RQ's round with SR representing elements of time, this works pretty well. Much less with SR representing only an initiative order.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One possible easy fix here would be to dramatically increase the Base Chance of shields - I don't think 40-50% would be uncalled for.

I think the same, and I also think that base chance should increase with shield size.

[Dissolv]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One possible easy fix here would be to dramatically increase the Base Chance of shields - I don't think 40-50% would be uncalled for.

I like this idea a lot.  Of course you can always have untrained fighters just hold the shield over left arm, chest, and possibly more if if the shield is large enough) for melee attacks as well as missiles.  That should honestly cover the concept of a shield being good even without a lot of training, and would use an existing rule.    But honestly a slightly higher parry for a shield is not at all unreasonable.

Remember that larger shields are generally wooden in construction, you really can't make a large metal shield and wield it with your non-dominant hand for an extended period of time.  Just too heavy. 

For the OP, parrying with a spear or axe is abstracted.  Mechanically you would be stop thrusting with the spear and weaving a figure eight type pattern with the axe, making it too dangerous for the opponent to step in with his attack, and interfering with his lines of attack.  With a shield you block.  With a sword you parry.  But in Runequest you get all of that under a single skill.  It doesn't really deserve a huge penalty. 

I would suggest mixing up weapon hit points quite a bit, however.  A good smith should make better quality weapons and shields by a point or two, and worn equipment should have quite a few dings in it.  Even a repair spell can't fully restore all the hit points of a damaged weapon.  Shields being disposable damage eaters was a running theme is my last campaign, as no one's medium shield returned fully intact, ever, from any adventure.  However parrying with the swords got to be expensive, and when an iron sword was nicked up a couple of times during emergency parry situations, the permanently lost hit points were savage.  The player vowed to fight to the last wooden shield before he parried with his superior iron Kopis again.

Also -- dodge is a thing.  Real high end adventures learn to dodge at high levels, not just parry.  Parry is for things that do reasonable levels of damage, dodge is for when something really Gloranthan tries to step on you.  1H Axe + dodge as the defensive skill seems pretty reasonable to me for a RL fighting style.  American Indian with a Tomahawk, for instance.   Not exactly something to beat the Romans with, but it "makes sense".  1h Spear should always be 2H spear if you've got nothing in the other hand.  If injured, then you use your footwork and fight like it's a wooden rapier.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

BRP manages weapon reach with the Strike Ranks. With RQ's round with SR representing elements of time, this works pretty well. Much less with SR representing only an initiative order.

Agree. Merely striking first - if you even do - isn't a massive deal. It was weird if you can attack more often with your pike than with a dagger, though...

[Kloster]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. Merely striking first - if you even do - isn't a massive deal. It was weird if you can attack more often with your pike than with a dagger, though...

Correct. This was 1 of RQ3's combat weakness, but is is even worse with RQ2 and RQG.

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. Merely striking first - if you even do - isn't a massive deal. It was weird if you can attack more often with your pike than with a dagger, though...

Easy fix though. Pike is a Battlefield/Formation weapon, and thus is outside SR progression. 

IF a SR value is needed (PC in the front ranks anyone?!) I would say that its more along the lines of 3 (mass, unwieldiness, and all).

SDLeary

Edited June 6, 2022 by SDLeary