Jar Eel Statblock ?

[Godweyn]

Hello everyone

So for story purposes and obviously because weird things happen, because this is glorantha, my players ended up lost on a heroquest.

The thing is, they just met the Razoress herself... So I need to do stats for her... Because they recognize who she is but they still want to fight... And I'm not a big fan of "auto"%.
So, before we start this homebrew from scratch, is there a friendly soul who may have already done some of this?

 

[AndreJarosch]

20 minutes ago, Godweyn said:

Hello everyone

So for story purposes and obviously because weird things happen, because this is glorantha, my players ended up lost on a heroquest.

The thing is, they just met the Razoress herself... So I need to do stats for her... Because they recognize who she is but they still want to fight... And I'm not a big fan of "auto"%.
So, before we start this homebrew from scratch, is there a friendly soul who may have already done some of this?

 

We have TWO sets of Stats for her: 
1. The White Bear & Red Moon / Dragon Pass stats
2. The Arduin Grimoire stats (D&D like) which were included in "Wyrms Footprint"

[Godweyn]

16 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

We have TWO sets of Stats for her: 
1. The White Bear & Red Moon / Dragon Pass stats
2. The Arduin Grimoire stats (D&D like) which were included in "Wyrms Footprint"

Just to clarify I am talking about Statblocks compatible with the Runequest system.
I understand that some data can be useful to know some magical abilities or items (at least very vague descriptions) that he possesses, like the data that appears in "Wyrms Footprint", but in general it can only be applied as specific boons of the pj I think.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1. If you are nice, she laughs and walks away.  (Or maybe does one formalistic duel and walks away)
2. Otherwise, they die.  Unless somehow they prepared and planned for all this.

Those are the only stats you need.

[Eff]

Do they want to seriously fight her or are they cool with just challenging her to say they did it? 

 

Either way, I think if they're rushing into it, Jar-eel just plays with them. Give her high Parry and maybe an attack that does 1 HP of damage but always knocks back. Once they deliver a scratch, she disables them all with ease, like in a Final Fantasy game where the antagonist reduces your entire party to 1HP and then the battle ends. 

Adjust if they come up with something clever, of course. But she's a one-woman army, after all. 

[radmonger]

By Dragon Pass, ignoring the fact they are on the same side, Jar-Eel would only beat the Crimson Bat on a roll of 2+; she could lose to it. Presumably that corresponds to the case where they fight without her using proper preparatory magic, e.g. being ambushed.

The RQ:G stats for the Crimson Bat, in the Bestiary, have it's best attack at 100%. So that implies her unbuffed combat skills are 150 to  250% or so. Less and the Bat typically beats her, more and she can't lose. So, if caught un-prepared,  a moderately experienced Humakti Rule Lord with 90% sword could therefor give her a meaningful fight with perhaps 15 points of sword trance. As her razor no doubt kills anyone wearing anything as mundane as enchanted iron on a hit, and her armour blocks any blow from any weapon a PC is likely to have, she would quite likely treat that as an invigorating workout.

Of course, if you don't apply any kind of stacking limits to sword trance's effect, then unbuffed Jar-Eel stands no more chance in a straight fight against a powered-up  Humakti that anyone else. So she would have to make use of her heroquest  powers, such as the 'complete control of the magical flux around her' (at-will infinitely strong Dismiss Magic?) mentioned somewhere as an ability of the infinity Rune. And she has to get her workout somewhere else.

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Godweyn said:

The thing is, they just met the Razoress herself... So I need to do stats for her... Because they recognize who she is but they still want to fight... And I'm not a big fan of "auto"%.
So, before we start this homebrew from scratch, is there a friendly soul who may have already done some of this?

You might check out the episode of Jeff Richard's White Bull Campaign where his PC's encountered Jar-eel in the Underworld.  They had to fight her, and Jeff told them roughly how powerful she was.  If I recall correctly, she had four weapons (four arms), each well over 100% and could split all attacks.

The general episode list is noted below, but specifically listen to Episode 28 on Youtube.  I don't recall how far in you have to go to hear the fight scene.

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

yes the lesson of the white bull campain is you can defeat her, but not with your weapons (or not only with your weapons)

so if your pcs have not successfully heroquested to gain enough divine power to fight a goddess, well they are just ridiculous ants wanting to fight a human baby

are 5-6 ants able to kill a human baby ?

 

note that I would like (I don't need it) to have some sort of canon stats and powers for these people (Miss Eel, Harreck and co, is Argrath a shaman ? ar rune lord ? both ? what draconic power he has ?) just to define the "scale".

 

 

but without it, in my glorantha / gm feeling :

unprepared pc should not yet defeat her in fight except  if

1) they succeeds to touch her (roll < 5, even if they have 150%, weapons , spells, anything)

2) they do a lot of damage ( something like at least 20 damage in  1 hit) at least 2 or 3 times (add one each time one pc is out)

3) they show some "lunar ennemy" power  ( call air rune, use a big storm spell in the 2.)

4) one of them, "the hero", succeeds to intimidate her (augmented by devotion, hate lunar, any usefull passion) once the damage are done

then she may run away.

(edit/ to be clear it is not  1 or 2 or 3 or 4, it is 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4)

another option is to find something to reduce her powers, even if you (or me) GM don't know her power. That would allow to reduce the 1) penalty or the 2) required damage minimum.

In the white bull campaign, from my perspective, the true hero (the one who  was the changemaker) is this  insupportable 😛 esrolian Ty Kora Tek fashionista. Not the eternal Orlanthi ennemy, not the death bringer Humakti, not the chaos destroyer shaman Storm Buller.

So any good idea from the pc, understanding who she is, what she loves, what she hates, what she fears could help. That is more roleplaying than roll a dice (even if personally, I would ask for a roll, but without penalty if the idea is nice)

 

but for ridiculous pc (compared to her) the best way would be to seduce her (by charm, intelligence, courage or ...)

Maybe after it, they may be teached some lunar illumination way, of course they get some Jar Eel devotion at 90% (or loyalty if you don't consider her as a goddess, or love if one player roleplay something like that, or a lot of different passions... I love passions)

 

After some warnings before they decide anything, the pc should understand they will die (even if they have few opportunities to succeed, but they should not hope too much). Then it is up to them to decide to run away (gain fear lunar, fear Jar eel, lose honor if they have, ...) or decide to sacrifice themselves for their convictions. Because they are heroes, and heroes die heroically.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes the lesson of the white bull campain is you can defeat her, but not with your weapons (or not only with your weapons)

so if your pcs have not successfully heroquested to gain enough divine power to fight a goddess, well they are just ridiculous ants wanting to fight a human baby.

One word... Harrek.

How did Harrek defeat his god? I don't think he was a full-on hero who had all those HQ powers before he killed his god...

Would you suggest that Jar Eel would walk all over the White Bear god as easily as any human?

I'm not suggesting that these things are easy, or likely. I'm just thinking that according to the rules (the fact that Harrek is what he is), it's possible.

One of the things I like about RQ over games with levelling like D&D - even apparently insignificant enemies can still take down the hero.

 

13 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

are 5-6 ants able to kill a human baby ?

Actually, yes.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

How did Harrek defeat his god?

Did he ?

what if that's something else... something like an opportunity to go in the mundane world for some entity blocked by the compromise

what if it is a spiritual alliance not seen by others ?

what if the success was only due to a  death rune at 100% (aka no more pc, just npc)

what if it was some smart idea  (or luck) Harreck had and not only brute force ?

etc..

in all cases, I don't say it is impossible, I say it is very very hard, that is my  1+2+3+4 exception case.

And I explained too there were other ways than fight. So my answer is not NO, it is "probably no, but you can try"

 

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Actually, yes.

Yes I understand in some sad cases,  it was just a metaphor, don't want to challenge it 🙂

 

[Shiningbrow]

12 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Did he ?

what if that's something else... something like an opportunity to go in the mundane world for some entity blocked by the compromise

what if it is a spiritual alliance not seen by others ?

what if the success was only due to a  death rune at 100% (aka no more pc, just npc)

what if it was some smart idea  (or luck) Harreck had and not only brute force ?

etc..

in all cases, I don't say it is impossible, I say it is very very hard, that is my  1+2+3+4 exception case.

And I explained too there were other ways than fight. So my answer is not NO, it is "probably no, but you can try"

 

Yes I understand in some sad cases,  it was just a metaphor, don't want to challenge it 🙂

 

I'm not agreeing with the necessity of your 1-4, is my point. 1 is fairly obvious. 2 is maybe (or 1 good hit in the right hit location??). The other two...??? Not so convinced (but, certainly something).

Something - yes. But what??

What did happen with Harrek and his god? We don't know. And I think Chaosium wants to keep that mystery, and let GMs decide for themselves.

Regardless of how the PCs are able to defeat Jar Eel, I presume it wouldn't stick anyway 😜

[JRE]

First thing is, where do you want this to go? Risk of player death, risk of player mutilation or material loss, impress the players how unready they are, show them they are really badass, get them back on track kicking them out of the heroplane, hate the lunars even more, total party kill...

Depending on your aim, Jar Eel's reactions and even the stats you use will vary. She is in the heroplane, so her stats would depend on what is her role, rather than her mundane world abilities (which normally would obliterate most things with stats, including the bat, as surely the bat counter stats include the cult on its back and a lot of DI)

[AndreJarosch]

If you NEED stats for Jar-eel: 
Use Elric of Melnibonés stats from Stormbringer 5th edition (with full armour, Stormbringer, drugs, spells, favours of the Chaos Gods, etc.), and let him fight with four weapons in four arms. 

[g33k]

Jar-Eel's stats -- particularly "heroquesting stats" -- do not exist, in part because those rules do not exist yet.

Jar-Eel will have "heroic abilities" that haven't been published in the rulebooks to date.

[French Desperate WindChild]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm not agreeing with the necessity of your 1-4, is my point. 1 is fairly obvious. 2 is maybe (or 1 good hit in the right hit location??). The other two...??? Not so convinced (but, certainly something).

Something - yes. But what??

What did happen with Harrek and his god? We don't know. And I think Chaosium wants to keep that mystery, and let GMs decide for themselves.

Regardless of how the PCs are able to defeat Jar Eel, I presume it wouldn't stick anyway 😜

yeah maybe I did a shortcut :

in case of pure fight

1+2+3+4 for a quick fight OR

1+2+ her death,  hope you will be able to not be wounded by her four weapons with your only 5% to parry / dodge them

 

I wanted to propose other ways than succeeding a mechanical fight. The 1+2+3+4 is a fight with a psychological impact -so some option to stop the fight before a deadly end-, the second option is to find some smart ways to reduce her fighting powers (or to raise the pc chances to succeed a roll), the third option is more roleplay / social play than fighting

 

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

What did happen with Harrek and his god? We don't know. And I think Chaosium wants to keep that mystery, and let GMs decide for themselves.

absolument d'accord (you will learn french, my dear teacher 😉 )

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but without it, in my glorantha / gm feeling :

Edited June 7, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[JRE]

I would emphasize in any case her Rune masteries.

Infinity. Only magic that she allows works on her, or near her. She can apply to herself or to anybody in line of sight any spell used nearby. Her POW is effectively infinite. 

Harmony. All fights or contests against her are one on one even if facing an army, and she will always try to challenge on your strongest ability, though her ability is the same as yours (harmonized) if her own ability is not higher. If you win she will give you a boon, but you fall in love with her (unless you are Gunda). If she wins, you are still yourself, but she may take something from you. In combat it is usually your life.

Chaos. Each time she speaks, unless she actively suppresses it, it is a Nysalorian riddle, I use the old skill based system, so the first riddles are based on the current situation, and then as she keeps chatting you explore other fields. 

[Shiningbrow]

32 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I wanted to propose other ways than succeeding a mechanical fight. The 1+2+3+4 is a fight with a psychological impact -so some option to stop the fight before a deadly end-, the second option is to find some smart ways to reduce her fighting powers (or to raise the pc chances to succeed a roll), the third option is more roleplay / social play than fighting

I've got this thing in my imagination (fantasy) of rescuing Elasa (LM's other half), and while on the escape, encountering JE. Then, using her (Elasa's) Inspiration (Truth Rune - crit??) find the perfect placement for a debilitating/killing blow... or some other way to defeat her.

30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

absolument d'accord (you will learn french, my dear teacher 😉 )

Merci beaucoup, mon ami.  (I know I'm missing some punctuation mark in there somewhere...) 🤪

 

 

[David Scott]

Jar-eel has five runes, Man, Moon, Harmony, plus Mastery and Infinity. 

 

I'd suggest as background you have a look at:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/chaosium-board-card-games/white-bear-and-red-moon-1st-ed/glorantha-in-defense-of-superheroes/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/allocating-your-unconscious-life-ii/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/pos/prince-of-sartar/chapter-2-the-lunar-way/028-disciple-and-traitor/

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

One word... Harrek.

How did Harrek defeat his god? I don't think he was a full-on hero who had all those HQ powers before he killed his god...

Before he performed taxydermy on his ancestral deity Harrek had already crossed the Syndics Ban borders before they were thawing, and he had killed the Red Emperor as a Dart Competitor. In waking years Harrek was 24 when he got his coat, but the 95 years of hibernation may have been spent heroquesting rather than sleeping, at least in part.

I would take it as a given that Harrek "cheated" or exploited a (possibly hitherto unknown or taboo) weakness of the White Bear God when he ripped the bear skin off his ancestor, based on an insight only someone brought up as a Rathori and then forced to think far outside of that culture could have come up with. But YGWV.

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Would you suggest that Jar Eel would walk all over the White Bear god as easily as any human?

Hardly. It takes the special, deeply trusted insight, which only someone born and raised as a Rathori can have. And then the cynicism of a Lunar Dart competitor (something that Jar-eel admittedly has in vast amounts). Any human? No chance.

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm not suggesting that these things are easy, or likely.

Echoes of JFK's speech about the moon landing project...

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm just thinking that according to the rules (the fact that Harrek is what he is), it's possible.

According to the rules of the world, yes. According to the current set of rules of RQG, undefined. According to the rules of your table - GM's decision.

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

One of the things I like about RQ over games with levelling like D&D - even apparently insignificant enemies can still take down the hero.

Harmast Barefoot, a really insignificant cottar who could make it rain from having sex in a field. Avivath, a street sweeper.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

Some very wise advice (from Shadowrun, I think) is that if you give something stats, your player characters will kill it.  So I wouldn't give Jar-Eel stats unless you are prepared to risk her dying (flukes happen).

Otherwise, if you have access the old Dorastor book, one of the "specials" could be reskinned.  They would be even tougher in RQG.  

[Godweyn]

I really appreciate all the opinions! They are really being very helpful.

As for why the players are somewhat overconfident, they are in a situation where narratively they must retreat and fail their mission, or fight against this demigoddess.
Some of them are already at rune levels, and with the use of things like sword trance they reach terrifying numbers. It is already a campaign for a few years, so it is normal that they have acquired many, many tools at their disposal.

I also agree with the image that no matter how powerful a hero is, in glorantha there is always a chance that he will fall, which includes Jar-Eel (as small as this possibility is).
I saw in some places what looked like stats for npc's like Beat-Pot and even Harrek. That's why I was asking too.
Obviously, I could take creatures or npj from Dorastor as a reference, and modify their magical characteristics a bit to be consistent with references to them from other systems and narratives. But even so, it would always be easier if there was already something basic.

Obviously, the ideal would be to use the new Heroquesting system, but not having access to it, improvising is still the way to go.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Godweyn

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Godweyn said:

the use of things like sword trance they reach terrifying numbers

I take this as more evidence that the Trance spells are horribly broken.

[Joerg]

12 minutes ago, icebrand said:

There are no official stats.*At my table* if you fight her i make up stats, and if you win you win; if i don't feel like statting her up, you won't come across her.

Also, some comments break my heart; "jar eel wins because shes special and you are not, so if you push it i'm gonna cheat so you die". I don't feel like GMs narrative is more important than the PCs narrative and doing this feels wrong on a moral level; if a GM did this to me i would have a serious chat / consider not playing with them anymore.

Jar-eel has enough divinity that you may only face an aspect or avatar of the heroine, a lesser clone that might be overcome. That allows a certain spectrum from "nigh impossible to hit let alone kill" (aka "solvable with sword trance 20+ plus truesword plus boon of Kargan Tor 20+") to "roll POWx1 to detemine whether you get to roll for an attack before you die/DI, and better roll a crit to do a little damage."

She is well versed in the Underworld and knows ways back even if her body is destroyed or missing a heart. Talk about laying her to rest only after you killed her body a couple of times.

 

12 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Mind you her DnD-clone stats aint that hot, shes merelyro lv17 or so.

I've never seen Arduin rules, but there is a scenario for high levels of lvl 8 upwards, and Jar-eel is double that.

[Godweyn]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

You might check out the episode of Jeff Richard's White Bull Campaign where his PC's encountered Jar-eel in the Underworld.  They had to fight her, and Jeff told them roughly how powerful she was.  If I recall correctly, she had four weapons (four arms), each well over 100% and could split all attacks.

The general episode list is noted below, but specifically listen to Episode 28 on Youtube.  I don't recall how far in you have to go to hear the fight scene.

 

 

 

 

Well I just finished watching the episode of "White Bull" (I had it pending), and it really seems that Jeff has what I was looking for haha

Too bad you can only get some data rather than something more concrete.
But at least I'm happy to know that I'm going more or less in the right direction.

Of course, as mentioned, it may only be an aspect of Jar Eel, but it still helps this situation and gives one more element to play with in the campaign.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Godweyn

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, icebrand said:

See? This is what i'm talking about. You are straight up cheating. There is no rules for that, why would i die?

Because I won't bother to roll a 1000% 25 m radius area attack at strike ranks 1, 5 and 9 with 20d6 damage, or similarly overpowered way to simulate stuff that Jar-eel on Steroids does e.g. in the Prince of Sartar comic, singlehandedly slaughtering half the slave army.

Yes, this might still offer a rules-lawyering niche to avoid such a fate, and I might have to add that this area is the equivalent of being engulfed by a Lune, and possibly some other bad stuff that there are RuneQuest rules for. "Approach her and die." "Your blood evaporates as you are stunned by her deadly beauty."

When I lay out those effects of Jar-eel at her deadliest, and you still want your character to enter that radius of death at that moment, those are my conditions. Or don't, fight another day when ritual preparation etc. is on your side rather than hers. If you come as five-armed, 12m tall Orlanth, different rules apply, obviously.

Harrek can send feedback along a super-powered Sunspear, even beyond the battlefield of Pennel to the New Lunar Temple in Sartar. That isn't covered by any RuneQuest rules as published, and doesn't need to be published because those were a singular event in his career (and that of the sun priests).

Superheroes cheat for the sake of the narrative, as per the WBRM/Dragon Pass rules. It takes massive effort and a lot of luck to stop them with anything but other cheat methods (such as sacrificing a True Dragon alliance).

RuneQuest is but one set of simulation conventions for the setting. If you want to modify the setting to fit your rules, that's your right. I don't think the current design team supports rules that let you rules-lawyer major antagonists through gaps in the GM's shield against such approaches. Cue Thor's Hammer debate...