Sharp Questions.

[svensson]

So, I get the AbChaos feed in my email. It's great, I like it, and I'm glad to get the news.

But I'm gonna go ahead and put this out in the middle of the table where everyone can see it...

 

Why does it seem that Chaosium puts about 4 Call of Cthulhu titles for every single RuneQuest title?

 

I've seen guesstimates, pie in the sky predictions, and so on, but frankly I'm getting the feeling that Chaosium is more interested in supporting CoC than RQ. We've been hearing about the Prosepaedia for two years now and we don't any notion whatsoever when it'll be available even in pdf form. Weapons and Equipment has been out in pdf for 6 months and we STILL don't have a hardback copy.

So what's up with all this? Is it some internal issue in Chaosium or something?

Edited June 14, 2022 by svensson

[Jeff]

Not at all. The main issue is that RQ books are more complex to put together and the Cults Book is the largest and most complex thing we have laid out since the Guide to Glorantha. Weapons and Equipment took six months to get printed and shipped - that's just how international logistics are nowadays. 

[svensson]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Not at all. The main issue is that RQ books are more complex to put together and the Cults Book is the largest and most complex thing we have laid out since the Guide to Glorantha. Weapons and Equipment took six months to get printed and shipped - that's just how international logistics are nowadays. 

Thanks for answering this so quickly, Jeff.

I think the question bore asking, but I do appreciate the transparency.

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Why does it seem that Chaosium puts about 4 Call of Cthulhu titles from every single RuneQuest title?

I think that CoC has a wider audience and thus bigger sales. The main world is parallel to ours and there is less of a barrier to entry. 

[PhilHibbs]

I'm on the outside so this is total fan speculation, but the nature of the material is different. A lot of the RQ stuff is core books and fundamental mechanics, which are super important to get right, to get consistent, and needs a lot of detailed hard work. Setting books or scenario packs can be farmed out to a wide cast of contributors without losing anything. W&E, GAGOG, Prosopaedia, Sartar Pack, GM Book, etc. all have the bottlenecks of Jeff and Jason (yes, there are nine names in the "BY" list for W&E, but I imagine Jeff and/or Jason had to green-light most of it).

[smiorgan]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I think that CoC has a wider audience and thus bigger sales. The main world is parallel to ours and there is less of a barrier to entry. 

Actually, I must say I am surprised that Chaosium is investing so much in RuneQuest, given that arguably CoC gives a better return on investment, at least in the short term.

It's really a sign that they are committed to a longer term vision of the company. 

 

[Godlearner]

7 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

It's really a sign that they are committed to a longer term vision of the company. 

Totally in agreement on this.

[PhilHibbs]

15 hours ago, smiorgan said:

Actually, I must say I am surprised that Chaosium is investing so much in RuneQuest, given that arguably CoC gives a better return on investment, at least in the short term.

If you look at where the Chaosium senior staff come from, how they got where they are, it's clear where their hearts lie (and yes I'm sure you know that too, this is exposition for the audience). Yes, there's no doubt that they feel a deep passion for Call of Cthulhu, but Rick, Jeff, MOB, they came from Moon Design to rescue Chaosium from the trouble that it was in over CoC. Sandy and Greg were in the gang too. These are hardcore RuneQuest and Glorantha fans. Yes, I get the frustration that progress is slow, I want the GM book and GaGoG in my hands right now to whack my players in the dice sack with, but they're taking the time needed to get it right. W&E is so much better than I had ever imagined a Weapons and Equipment Book could ever be!

[svensson]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you look at where the Chaosium senior staff come from, how they got where they are, it's clear where their hearts lie (and yes I'm sure you know that too, this is exposition for the audience). Yes, there's no doubt that they feel a deep passion for Call of Cthulhu, but Rick, Jeff, MOB, they came from Moon Design to rescue Chaosium from the trouble that it was in over CoC. Sandy and Greg were in the gang too. These are hardcore RuneQuest and Glorantha fans. Yes, I get the frustration that progress is slow, I want the GM book and GaGoG in my hands right now to whack my players in the dice sack with, but they're taking the time needed to get it right. W&E is so much better than I had ever imagined a Weapons and Equipment Book could ever be!

Well, as you can tell, I care a great deal about RQ too. I want this renaissance to not only be 'right' but have legs. We were all pretty stoked about the Glorantha specific titles for AH's RQ3, but that petered out and died. I personally didn't much like the HQ rules, but the writing was top notch. When the RQG Quick Start came out for Free RPG Day, I was on the road on vacation and hunted down a comic /game store 75 miles out of my way so I wouldn't miss out on it. Thank God I have a game geek wife who understood! My ex-wife wouldn't have. And one of my great gaming treasures is a copy of the RQG Core Rules signed by Greg Stafford the GenCon before he passed away.

While I certainly don't claim to have the investment in it you guys have, I am a loyal fan and am perfectly happy to put down my filthy lucre when something comes out. But I admit to being really confused at how CoC puts out several pretty high quality box sets in the time it takes for RQ get one hardback out. But let me emphasize that I recognize you guys doing your best to answer my questions. I see the effort and transparency and I do appreciate it. Frankly, I can't imagine having the same conversation with a couple of other game companies out there.

Edited June 14, 2022 by svensson

[Jeff]

36 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, as you can tell, I care a great deal about RQ too. I want this renaissance to not only be 'right' but have legs. We were all pretty stoked about the Glorantha specific titles for AH's RQ3, but that petered out and died. I personally didn't much like the HQ rules, but the writing was top notch. When the RQG Quick Start came out for Free RPG Day, I was on the road on vacation and hunted down a comic /game store 75 miles out of my way so I wouldn't miss out on it. Thank God I have a game geek wife who understood! My ex-wife wouldn't have. And one of my great gaming treasures is that I have a copy of the RQG Core Rules signed by Greg Stafford the GenCon before he passed away.

While I certainly don't claim to have the investment in it you guys have, I am a loyal fan and am perfectly happy to put down my filthy lucre when something comes out. But I admit to being really confused at how CoC puts out several pretty high quality box sets in the time it takes for RQ get one hardback out. But let me emphasize that I recognize you guys doing your best to answer my questions. I see the effort and transparency and I do appreciate it. Frankly, I can't imagine having the same conversation with a couple of other game companies out there.

The Cults Book is a big bottle-neck, as it requires Sim, Jason, Matt, and myself to push through. It is HUGE - we are talking Masks level of bigness, with far more moving pieces. That's basically the whole RQ-related team. At the same time, Jason and I are pushing through the Dragon Pass book, the Sartar Player's Guide, and a few other projects. What that means is once that goes through the process, a LOT will come out. 

Now doing a collection of scenarios is much easier to produce than any of those books I mentioned, BUT those books move the entire line forward much more than a collection of scenarios would.

[AndreJarosch]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Cults Book is a big bottle-neck, as it requires Sim, Jason, Matt, and myself to push through. It is HUGE - we are talking Masks level of bigness, with far more moving pieces. That's basically the whole RQ-related team. At the same time, Jason and I are pushing through the Dragon Pass book, the Sartar Player's Guide, and a few other projects. What that means is once that goes through the process, a LOT will come out. 

Now doing a collection of scenarios is much easier to produce than any of those books I mentioned, BUT those books move the entire line forward much more than a collection of scenarios would.

YES!

Once the basic background books are published (Rulebook: Check; Bestiary: Check; Equipment: Check; Gods: in progress; Setting: in progress; GM book: in progeress) follow up publications will be a lot easier to write, because the building blocks are all there!
Then new authors will find it much easier to write stuff for RQ, without Jeff and Jason forced to revise the manuscript to much. 

 

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Now doing a collection of scenarios is much easier to produce than any of those books I mentioned, BUT those books move the entire line forward much more than a collection of scenarios would.

And us community content authors know that we're doing the easy stuff. There are now loads of good scenarios on the Jonstown Compendium, hopefully more than enough to tide you over until the next official release comes out for RuneQuest. (If you haven't yet played through the Six Seasons or Sandheart campaigns, do yourselves a favour, eh?). I hope you've enjoyed everything you've found there : it's all been made possible through the great generosity of Chaosium's principals.

And let me briefly plug my JC Catalogue, in case this is all news to you. There are now more than 200 community content titles for RuneQuest and Glorantha, including 45 full-fledged RuneQuest scenarios (plus adventure outlines, scenario seeds, Monsters of the Month, etc.). A couple of dozen of the best-selling titles are available in print. We've honestly never had it so good.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

... But I admit to being really confused at how CoC puts out several pretty high quality box sets in the time it takes for RQ get one hardback out ...

I think this is a case of "ya don't know what ya don't know."

Not so long ago, I had an "a-ha!" moment, where I realized what was going on.  (Jeff or others @Chaosium, please correct me if I'm wrong...)

Basically:  Glorantha is a problem child (from the perspective of production logistics).

Artists need a HUGE amount more guidance and feedback; they need to iterate more rough sketches and detail-studies, before they have "gotten it right."  And the details are a mix of ancient-world plus Glorantha-weird.  The number of artists willing and able to do this is quite limited, and if one artist hits some sort of stumbling-block mid-project, it delays the whole project.   IIRC, Chaosium has gotten at least one artist sufficiently steeped in Glorantha that they could do Art-Direction chores for new product, started work filled with verve and excitement... and then they came down with a severe bout of covid, were bedridden for a month, and only  v-e-r-y  s-l-o-w-l-y  could get back to being productive.

Also, one of the primary authors is Jeff himself; but every hour spent directing other creators is an hour NOT spent writing the new Gods book, or Sartar Gazeteer, or whatever; and every hour spent writing is NOT directing those projects' creators (blocking those projects), for a nicenasty catch-22.

***

Over in the Mythos side of the house, Mike Mason has been churning out product since before the Return of the Great Old Ones.  He's got a stable of authors and artists that is vast (compared to qualified RQ creators).  Everyone-and-his-brother knows what 1920s-Earth looked like, so much less-detailed & time-consuming art-direction for Chaosium; similarly, Mythos-Monsters are generally part of "the culture," and don't take long to art-direct.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

I think this is a case of "ya don't know what ya don't know."

Not so long ago, I had an "a-ha!" moment, where I realized what was going on.  (Jeff or others @Chaosium, please correct me if I'm wrong...)

Basically:  Glorantha is a problem child (from the perspective of production logistics).

Artists need a HUGE amount more guidance and feedback; they need to iterate more rough sketches and detail-studies, before they have "gotten it right."  And the details are a mix of ancient-world plus Glorantha-weird.  The number of artists willing and able to do this is quite limited, and if one artist hits some sort of stumbling-block mid-project, it delays the whole project.   IIRC, Chaosium has gotten at least one artist sufficiently steeped in Glorantha that they could do Art-Direction chores for new product, started work filled with verve and excitement... and then they came down with a severe bout of covid, were bedridden for a month, and only  v-e-r-y  s-l-o-w-l-y  could get back to being productive.

Also, one of the primary authors is Jeff himself; but every hour spent directing other creators is an hour NOT spent writing the new Gods book, or Sartar Gazeteer, or whatever; and every hour spent writing is NOT directing those projects' creators (blocking those projects), for a nicenasty catch-22.

***

Over in the Mythos side of the house, Mike Mason has been churning out product since before the Return of the Great Old Ones.  He's got a stable of authors and artists that is vast (compared to qualified RQ creators).  Everyone-and-his-brother knows what 1920s-Earth looked like, so much less-detailed & time-consuming art-direction for Chaosium; similarly, Mythos-Monsters are generally part of "the culture," and don't take long to art-direct.

I would utterly disagree that Glorantha is a problem child. We are doing a bunch of big projects that are culminations of Greg's vision - not low-hanging fruit but the hard stuff that Greg never quite figured out how to do. The Cults Book has been nearly as big an undertaking as the Guide to Glorantha - maybe actually bigger.

[AndreJarosch]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I would utterly disagree that Glorantha is a problem child. We are doing a bunch of big projects that are culminations of Greg's vision - not low-hanging fruit but the hard stuff that Greg never quite figured out how to do. The Cults Book has been nearly as big an undertaking as the Guide to Glorantha - maybe actually bigger.

You are currently laying the ground work to make it easier for future authors as well as yourself to publish more setting and adventure books. 
Take all the time you need to get the foundation of the next ten years+ of Gloranthan Gold into print. 👍

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

I would utterly disagree that Glorantha is a problem child.  We are doing a bunch of big projects that are culminations of Greg's vision - not low-hanging fruit but the hard stuff that Greg never quite figured out how to do. The Cults Book has been nearly as big an undertaking as the Guide to Glorantha - maybe actually bigger.

Apologies, the phrasing was distinctly tongue-in-cheek.  I didn't mean to suggest the work wasn't worth doing!  Nor trying to say you were doing anything at all "wrong" by taking the time to do it right.  I was specifically discussing it in the context of "production" (vs. the fans' clamor for More!Sooner!Faster!).

I mean... compare the old "Deities & Demigods" book from TSR... you can't, really (which is sort of my point).

But also... compare production to the CoC line (as per this thread).  Which people do... repeatedly.  There seems to be a new spate of this on social media (I've seen it several places over the past month or so); but it isn't new.  I've seen this (off and on) for at least a couple of years now.

At one point, I was one of those bemoaning all the CoC and the lack of RQ, going so far as to add up all the announcements in all the AbChaosii for a solid year, to "prove" there was much more CoC-dev than RQ-dev.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by g33k

[Dissolv]

Sorcery rules,

Heroquest framework(s),

Larger scale, Ritual magic (wyters and up) rules,

A few more settings (Western lands, Eastern Isles, Pamaltea locations),

The big Hero Wars campaign book

And I think I am good to go.  Everything else has enough out there that I can wing it in what appears to be a lore-friendly manner.   I've already come around to the belief that a Heroquest must be personally transformative to the character (and the player!) to be a true Heroquest, so that makes it a very locally manged thing to pull off.  But deeper Glorantha lore for the process is always welcome. 

Actually, everything is welcome!  I am simply pointing out the hard blocks for my efforts at running a campaign where any element introduced may wind up greatly retconned later.  Not so much a problem with the plot, but a real annoyance with rule mechanics.  Sometimes a headache when trying to portray the more powerful, but still human entities as well.

[Godlearner]

We years away from Sorcery rules at best.

Heroquest framework, probably longer than that

Larger scale, Ritual magic (wyters and up) rules .... hmm, possible, but I doubt it. More likely as a JC publication

A few more settings (Western lands, Eastern Isles, Pamaltea locations) .... only as JC publications (IMO). Several have already been released. Although, you may see something on Western lands with the Sorcery rules.

The big Hero Wars campaign book ... huge undertaking. I can see it being done, but such a huge effort may not financially feasible

 

[SDLeary]

17 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The big Hero Wars campaign book ... huge undertaking. I can see it being done, but such a huge effort may not financially feasible

I have a vague recollection of this being mentioned by Greg in the early 2010s. Something along the lines of a GPC type campaign book. 

No clues as to how far along it ever got, but it would certainly be fun to have.

SDLeary

Edited June 15, 2022 by SDLeary

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

We years away from Sorcery rules at best.

Heroquest framework, probably longer than that

Larger scale, Ritual magic (wyters and up) rules .... hmm, possible, but I doubt it. More likely as a JC publication

A few more settings (Western lands, Eastern Isles, Pamaltea locations) .... only as JC publications (IMO). Several have already been released. Although, you may see something on Western lands with the Sorcery rules.

The big Hero Wars campaign book ... huge undertaking. I can see it being done, but such a huge effort may not financially feasible

 

Heroquest framework is in the Gamemasters Sourcebook. It is some 40 to 50 pages of material, new rules, abilities, etc. with a sample quest ("Orlanth and Aroka"). 

Hero Wars campaign book - already done at the Pendragon campaign book level, but want to get this to Boy King level of detail before it goes out. Can't go out before Cults, Sartar, and GM Sourcebook.

Other settings - Lunar Empire is a bigger priority. Have a Lunar Tarsh book already in development. I noodle a lot about the West, but don't yet have the right vehicle for it (or writers that I think get it). But who knows?

But honestly, unless you are working with me on projects, you really have no idea what I am working on or what I am planning. I actually find that sort of speculation somewhere between irritating and downright annoying.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

...

But honestly, unless you are working with me on projects...

Or if you -- or someone @Chaosium -- has definitively spoken as to what project(s) are in what stage(s)?
 

Edited June 15, 2022 by g33k
typo: definitive to query

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

Or if you -- or someone @Chaosium -- has definitively spoken as to what project(s) are in what stage(s)?
 

I don't get it - why speculate on stuff if you have no basis? 

[g33k]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I don't get it - why speculate on stuff if you have no basis? 

It seems to be something most of us humans seem to do, when we're enthusiastic about a thing.  Sometimes we do have a basis; sometimes we're just seizing upon some tidbit, and wishfully investing it with tremendously more meaning than it has, leaping to wholly-unjustified (and incorrect) conclusions.

But as for the specific you were replying to here:  you had stated "unless [person speaking] is working with me[Jeff] on a project..." and I was asking if it wasn't also safe to conclude things if Chaosium had spoken definitively on a topic; I presume that *is* a sound basis!

[Nick Brooke]

You must be new here, right? 😉

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

You must be new here, right? 😉

Just because some people do it here a lot doesn't make it any less annoying or irritating. If people want to creatively engage with the setting and let their fancy and imagination run wild with Glorantha, go for it. That's gaming and creation and imagination in action. But people - please don't do the same when speculating what I personally am working on or complaining that I am not working on something. That's my job.

I value the ability to directly interact with people on this forum, but that is the sort of thing that makes me think about not interacting at all here.