No fishing skill ?

[svensson]

OK, fishermen who are trying to feed a steading don't use hook and line or spears. They use nets.

But we're also really over-thinking this. We don't need to obsess over the minutiae of Farming or Herding, so let's skip it with Fishing as well.

A successful Fishing roll means you caught fish. If you're using hook-and-line for two hours, you got enough to feed 1-4 people. If you're out in the bay using a net and you're out there all day, you got enough to sell at a profit.

Boom. Done.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

... you got enough to sell at a profit.

And to dry for storm-season, or when the fish aren't running, etc.

But yeah, "did you get plenty" is the basic question the roll answers.

But also, I think it's worth doing Seasonal rolls, to pick up trends, and (depending on culture & methods) whole-village rolls, because sometimes the fishing-boats are big multi-day multi-person jobs, not single-fisherman-for-a-day.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

The cliche view has the "mighty hunters" (generally adult males) wandering widely for big game, while the "gatherers" (generally women & children) stayed closer to camp (which was, presumably, pitched near the best places to gather).  Realistically, I presume the "gatherers" would also be doing a lot of that small-game hunting (setting snares after harvesting an area -- possibly baiting with some of the harvest -- then visiting the snares the next morning).

Yes, I studied anthropology. Very often women/childen did essentially ALL of that small game hunting while adult men did something else. However, human societies are extraordinarily diverse.

[Agentorange]

12 hours ago, svensson said:

So, make a Fishing skill.

For a Fisherman /Boatman substitute the basic skill for Farming or Herding.

Simple.

Sounds like a plan.

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, g33k said:

Rather to my surprise, even rod-fishing goes back to antiquity (although early rods were just long fixed handles that their lines were tied to, without a spool or guides for the line; more like a glorified carriage whip, I think ... ); 2000BC seems to be the commonly-cited date.

Fishing hooks found in  Sakitari Cave in Okinawa are far FAR older.  Rereading the article I can't believe that the Proceedings for the National Academy of Science uses the acronym PNAS btw.  Have they never said that out loud without the implied punctuation?  

Edited June 23, 2022 by Darius West

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

But also, I think it's worth doing Seasonal rolls, to pick up trends, and (depending on culture & methods) whole-village rolls, because sometimes the fishing-boats are big multi-day multi-person jobs, not single-fisherman-for-a-day.

This is a subsumed into the Sacred Time. A Fisher's income is dependant on their Occupation Income skill Result applied to their Base income. For Hide based incomes like Nobles and Priests, just assume the standard 40L = 1 Hide, and that one fishing hide is abstract. You could apply the Quality of Land table from W&E if you wanted more detail and the details from pond, creek, river, lake, and fish weir. 

[Agentorange]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Fishing hooks found in  Sakitari Cave in Okinawa are far FAR older.  Rereading the article I can't believe that the Proceedings for the National Academy of Science uses the acronym PNAS btw.  Have they never said that out loud without the implied punctuation?  

Perhaps they keep it because it allows them to giggle like naughty school children everytime they say it ? 😁

[radmonger]

I think I would be more tempted to drop the farming and herding skills, replacing them with:

farmer: one of animal/plant lore, devise, manage household

herder: animal lore, ride, survival

That way, farmer, fisher, hunter and herder have a similar scope for their professional skills to come up in active game-time. While avoiding the issue of 'the treasure is guarded by deadly magical piranhas, but we have no fisherman'. Narrow skills that do one specific thing that could reasonably be done by combinations of other skills (i.e. devise augmented by river lore) are just dead weight on the character sheet.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Rereading the article I can't believe that the Proceedings for the National Academy of Science uses the acronym PNAS btw.  Have they never said that out loud without the implied punctuation?  

As long as they do not plan to join JPL in a manned probe to our 7th planet...

[Joerg]

Here are a few points about my personal experiences with coastal fishing, and research into the methods of our forefathers.

Net fishing:

My father used to lay out eel traps made from net and wooden (or plastic) rings. A trap is basically two or three "baskets" made of net with a funnel bottom, allowing the fish to find its way in but not out again. The last funnel was knotted shut. Two such baskets would be lying on either end of a central vertical net, held down by a weighted line and held up with swimmers (made from cork or foamy plastics, but in the past glass bottles or hollow glass bulbs would be used, with pottery another alternative). Several of these arrangements would be layed out between two buoys held down by a significant weight, both to indicate position and to lay out your "claim". The netting was fine enough not to let eel of sufficient feeding size through. Other than eel, we also caught local cod, crabs, and a couple of other coastal fish, depending on where we would lay these nets. We worked in the shallows, between 1 m and 5 m depth.

Knitting such nets is a craft similar to weaving or macramee, but my father bought ready-made netting before sewing it into the funnels for the baskets. He knew enough about net knitting to repair tears or cuts. When I was available, I would do the hauling in and out of the boat while my father navigated with the motor, or absent a motor I would do the rowing (skulling), but the work can be done by a single person in a boat. Our hunting grounds were on a bay on the Baltic Sea.

Another net my father used to employ while it still was legal for others than full-time fishermen was a standing net held upright similarly to the one described above, consisting of a loose inner net (of considerably larger mesh) and two somewhat tighter outer nets of rather huge meshing. The function was to have a migrating fish push the middle net into one of the meshes of the outer net forming a bag, from which it wouldn't escape. Typical desired catches included flounders and cod.

Another method to get at flounders or cod was to lay ground lines with worms as bait. While quite a bit of the bait was eaten away by crabs, flounders or cod would bite, and even the occasional eel, and other, less well known fish of the region.

For herring and cod (and occasionally mackerel or other predatory fish following the herring swarms), fishing with a rod or a hand line can be quite productive if you know where and when to fish. Before overfishing, a four hour trip for a single person using a rod could easily provide 10 or more kg of herring, biting on glossy hooks moved up and down rhythmically. Predatory fish would bite on the same, or on the silvery weight at the end of the line, if you used greater hooks, whether with a rod or (IMO more satisfyingly) with a hand line. I was on a few expeditions inland of the Lofoten or on a side fjord, where (depending on the position) we would catch quite a lot of haddock and some cod. One four hour trip on the west fjord with hand lines yielded about fifteen sizable (4kg+) cods or haddocks per participant - we could have continued longer, but that was about what we were able to consume, so we broke off.

The herring migrations to their spawning grounds have been met by fishermen from considerable distance for millennia, and salted herring was a main export for the Hanseatic League. Herrings could be caught with nets, or with wooden fish traps (basically palisades in a waterway) creating a series of funnels that you could close off with netting or baskets at the end.

Surrounding a school of fish with a hanging net and pulling that together is another tactic used from boats. A variant of that is used in bays where walkers (and occasionally swimmers) will close off part of the bay and then pull the net towards the shore. The same method is used to "empty" fish breeding ponds in autumn that would have been seeded with youngling fish (or fish eggs) earlier.

I don't have any personal experience with spear fishing, harpooning, or bow-fishing. Tridents or comb-like spear points can be used while wading through water suspected to house fish like e.g. eel. Spear fishing or harpooning requires rather clear water, or you have to catch fish leaping up obstacles. If you do this during a migration, rather simple catching methods will feed you through a winter. Ask any bear near a salmon river...

Finally, there is the gathering of seafood, like clams, mussles, normal-sized crabs (in tidal pools or in basket traps using the funnels described at the top of this post).

 

How to model this in RuneQuest?

You need local lore or animal lore to find the best fishing grounds and times. "Documents" or sage advice will increase your chance of success by 50 or more percentiles.

For the equipment, I would ask for "Craft: Fishery" rather than Devise. Your fisher will need to know knots, possibly net knitting, crafting fishing spears and javelins/harpoons, repairing boats (whether coracles, dugouts, or planked boats), possibly basket weaving. A fishing javelin won't be the equivalent of a bronze-tipped war javelin, but 1D8 will still be a good estimate for a stone- or bone-tipped throwing stick created from coppiced wood, some rope or sinew, and some material for the tip. The weight of the shaft is enough to let even a pointy stick pierce fur, blubber or animal skin, but points and barbs will make it a lot more useful for piercing and hauling out the catch.

Boating or Swimming are optional skills, depending on how and where you go fishing. Stationary fish traps in tidal waters don't really require either, and neither in not too deep rivers.

Making functional baskets, wicker fences, or palisades doesn't require much in the way of a craft skill. Higher skill will produce prettier or sturdier specimen, but won't affect function that much.

Local Lore will include knowledge about currents, about steep underwater edges where fish schools would collect with the right (wind-induced) local current.

Collecting and preparing bait is a fairly trivial though possibly time-consuming pastime.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Here are a few points about my personal experiences with coastal fishing, and research into the methods of our forefathers.

That's a great description! There's also traditional techniques that use organic poisons; you make a small dam, dump the poison in, and gather the fish you need. The poisons in question don't affect humans and they typically don't kill the fish, they're intended to stun them. This is typical for fishing in streams and other small bodies of water (you can't effectively use these weaker poisons in a large body of water), and was practiced everywhere in the globe.

[Baron Wulfraed]

20 hours ago, g33k said:

You mistake my intent, probably because I was unclear.

I'm hypothesizing a regular hook-and-line, just with a sling & stone for range, to "cast" it further out than you can cast without those; not slinging for the kill.
You're still hooking the fish & pulling it in.

Since I doubt you mean anything with elastic for the sling, that means you are talking about swinging a mass at one end of a folded strip of leather -- multiple times to build up speed. How do you keep the line from tangling (with either itself or with the length of the sling)?

More practical, in my mind, would be something like an extended atlatl, having an eye on the far end for the line to pass through. Said line passes down the shaft and is held by a finger of the launching hand; the rest of the line is loosely coiled at one's feet. Swing the launcher and release the line at the (TBD) optimal point in the arc, letting the hook/bait/sinker? pull the line from the coil. Or control the line with the off hand, and develop the techniques used by fly-fishers, wherein one makes multiple fore/aft swings with the launcher, feeding a few feet of line out at each end, until one has 15-20 feet of line in the air.

Of course, I'd suspect the first development would just be a bamboo rod (my first pole was 10+feet long). The length of line being such that it reaches from the eyelet at the tip down to (for safety, to avoid snagging oneself) just above the hand hold. Extreme reach for the line would then be about twice the length of the bamboo. With a long enough rod, the acceleration would be gentler, so one doesn't end up ripping the bait.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I would lump a lot of Fishing (and Hunting) into "Survival". As a PC, that's where the occupation could prove useful, when the party gets lost on the wilderness.  Week to week feeding the village might arguably be another skill, but unlikely to be relevant in most campaigns. 

Then I noticed that neither Fishers nor Hunters get Survival as an occupational skill.

WTF?  Nathem the pre-gen does have Survival 30%, but not sure where that came from, as neither Hunters nor Odalya offer that as a skill.  Was this erratisized?

Edited June 24, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Sid Vicarious]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

WTF?  Nathem the pre-gen does have Survival 30%, but not sure where that came from, as neither Hunters nor Odalya offer that as a skill.  Was this erratisized?

The base rate for Survival skill is 15%. He gets another 5% by virtue of being from Old Tarsh. He gets 0% extra from his Knowledge skills bonus, although that could benefit that way with a different build.  The other 10% must be from skill points assigned during chargen.

Its not too hard to have a serviceable Survival skill for a starting PC, but I agree that no bouns for the Hunter occupation seems like an oversight.

[PhilHibbs]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

WTF?  Nathem the pre-gen does have Survival 30%, but not sure where that came from, as neither Hunters nor Odalya offer that as a skill.  Was this erratisized?

Base 15, Culture +5, and a Personal Skill Bonus +10.

Edited June 25, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Scotty]

On 6/24/2022 at 7:11 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

as neither Hunters nor Odalya offer that as a skill.

For the Hunter occupation, just modify the skills per:

Quote

 

The gamemaster and players are encouraged to modify these occupations to fit their purposes.

RQG, page 64

 

And while not part of Odayla's Cult Starting Skills, a GM could easily allow one of Track +15%, Peaceful Cut +20%, Sing +10% to be swapped out with survival (or split one of the skills like Peaceful Cut +10% and Survival +10%) as it is a cult skill:

Quote

Cult Skills: Climb, Hide, Missile Weapon, Move Quietly, Peaceful Cut, Scan, Survival, Track, Worship (Odayla).

Odayla, page 300

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

For the Hunter occupation, just modify the skills per:

And while not part of Odayla's Cult Starting Skills, a GM could easily allow one of Track +15%, Peaceful Cut +20%, Sing +10% to be swapped out with survival (or split one of the skills like Peaceful Cut +10% and Survival +10%) as it is a cult skill:

Besides, Hunters get shorted on skill points compared to Farmers anyway. Adding Survival +20 to their Occupation Skills isn't gonna break the game.

[PhilHibbs]

Yes, the French edition gives them an extra 60 points of skills. No Survival though!

[Rob Darvall]

On 6/24/2022 at 12:38 AM, Joerg said:

...Herrings could be caught ... with wooden fish traps (basically palisades in a waterway) creating a series of funnels that you could close off with netting or baskets at the end.

For a long standing (approx 48000 years) costal version of this check out the Brewarina Fish Traps.

[Lordabdul]

On 6/25/2022 at 4:54 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, the French edition gives them an extra 60 points of skills. No Survival though!

FWIW, the French edition did the following changes:

• Fisher
  • increased: Swim +40%
  • added: Craft +15%, Animal Lore +20%, Bargain +15%
• Hunter
  • increased: Scan +15%, Hide +25%, Listen +15%
  • added: Move Quietly +25%, Craft +10%

There are also tweaks to other professions. I personally don't really care about different occupations getting a different amount of points (it's the same in Call of Cthulhu), but I do appreciate the changes that let fishermen know a little bit about fish and devising baits, or hunters knowing how to move around the forest  and devising traps. Like many players, I was confused by the absence of those bonuses -- enough to wonder if the designers had been traumatized in their youth, being forced to spend many boring days fishing with their dad or something, and now taking it out on the game stats 😄 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Ludovic aka Lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/23/2022 at 9:02 PM, radmonger said:

herder: animal lore, ride, survival

Apologies for pedanticism... most non-nomadic herders won't be riding anything. cos you don't need to for your sheep, goats or pigs. And most cowherds can't afford a good horse, as the price of one is near to a full year's income.

Compare that to a trained dog (or alynx, if you're lucky enough to befriend one).

[PhilHibbs]

Anyone interested in the full list of differences between English and French edition occupation skills:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ncIS231qS7q_qgDp5_DXzG01PavORGG4OCA-6F5pvVg

There is one minor difference in the cult skills as well, Ernalda gets +15 to Sing instead of +10.

Edited June 29, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Nick Brooke]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:02 PM, radmonger said:

While avoiding the issue of 'the treasure is guarded by deadly magical piranhas, but we have no fisherman'.

Ahem. If you take a fisherman to THAT CAVE in Black Spear Act IV, you have my absolute blessing to make all their occupation skills completely useless under the circs. (Which involve being nibbled by deadly piranhas)

[Shiningbrow]

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Anyone interested in the full list of differences between English and French edition occupation skills:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ncIS231qS7q_qgDp5_DXzG01PavORGG4OCA-6F5pvVg

There is one minor difference in the cult skills as well, Ernalda gets +15 to Sing instead of +10.

Any changes to cultural skills? If there is, and you have a list, I'd appreciate seeing those as well.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Any changes to cultural skills? If there is, and you have a list, I'd appreciate seeing those as well.

No. Well, not that anyone has made me aware of. I don't have the French edition.

Edited June 29, 2022 by PhilHibbs