Spells for Odayla

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 7/4/2022 at 5:55 AM, Darius West said:

Story

No. Just. No.

Too much Mind Bleach required. 😁😉

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

12 hours ago, Kettlehelm said:

So I had a proposed character who was a female Odayla-worshipper because her family were hunters on the edge of Apple Lane. Does that mean she needs to initiate into 3 cults to get access to a standard array of Runespells for Odayla (Ernalda, Odayla and Orlanth) or only two (Ernalda and Odayla)/(Vingan[Orlanth] and Odalya)?

You want more than one of Orlanth's special spells [the one he gives to Odayla], you will need to initiate into Orlanth [same for Ernalda], and pay the tithes. You only get the spells Odayla description says they get otherwise.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

Just Odayla.

When you initiate into a Cult, you usually get access to the Associate Cult Spells given to your cult. Some restrict access to the spells to certain levels, though.

To get other Orlanth Runemagic, for example, you need to Initiate to Orlanth.

 

That is how I would play it.

However, RQG has a very confusing line

    "Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult"

that frankly, has implications that I can't compute.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

That is how I would play it.

However, RQG has a very confusing line

    "Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult"

that frankly, has implications that I can't compute.

I mean, I can see it, but I wish rules for this would have been provided. What does Odayla-as-subcult give you, and how is it less than full Odayla worship?

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

That is how I would play it.

However, RQG has a very confusing line

    "Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult"

that frankly, has implications that I can't compute.

I mean, I can see it, but I wish rules for this would have been provided. What does Odayla-as-subcult give you, and how is it less than full Odayla worship?

If you need rules, that aren't in official supplements, just give worshippers of Odayla within Orlanth an additional Runespell that might depend on the Temple worshipped at. So, Orlanthi in that Subcult get 2 Odayla Runespells, on from the Subcult and one as an Associate Cult.

 

[JRE]

While waiting for Gods of Glorantha, where I hope that will be cleared, I would say that Orlanth Odayla subcult exists in tribes where they do not have even a shrine to Odayla, so the cult is subsumed into Orlanth, lacking specialized Odayla priests.

I see it as less beneficial than Soltakss.

Those that join the subcult are still Orlanth initiates, and the acts of worship will be led by an Orlanth priest with association with Odayla, but they also get one specific runespell from Odayla's list, while having also additional requirements to join. As there is no shrine to Odayla, normal Orlanth initiates do not have access to the associated Odayla magic. This is a workaround. If enough initiates join the subcult, then a shrine could be set up and Odayla could return to associate cult status, but that still requires a priest of Odayla.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

While waiting for Gods of Glorantha, where I hope that will be cleared

It's not. But what you do get are the two paths of the Bearwalker (Rune Lord): the Bearwalker path (solitary wilderness only) and the Champion's Path, where they enter service as the champion of the king or chief. It's likely the latter that can be a subcult of Orlanth, giving the rune lord full access to their spells from the Orlanth temple (can be a minor temple). The Bearwalker need only a pay a point of POW for this to work (per the rules).

If an adventurer is lucky enough to have a Bearwalker Champion in their clan, this is how they could join the cult and access magics.

Given Jeff's numbers for the cults of Sartar and Odayla falling into the minor cult bracket:

Quote

Let’s say an average of about 145-500 per minor cult.

What that hopefully makes clear is that there are not going to be great temples of any of the minor cults (or indeed the smaller cults) in Sartar.

Given the numbers above there are 2-5 Bearwalkers in all of Sartar (personally I'd go for two). Given that there's little wilderness to support them, let's assume they are all on the Champion path. There is like to be a couple of minor Orlanth temples supporting their Bearwalker Champions, I'd make one, one of the Sartar King's and the other a local clan one.

Jeff's Boldhome numbers, don't specifically include Odayla, but given that there's a great temple to Orlanth there, it could be assumed that Kallyr or Argrath had a Bearwalker champion.

Likewise it could be assumed there was one at any of the other Great Temples: Hill of Orlanth Victorious (Culbrea tribe), Orlanth’s Hill (Torkani), Wintertop Fort (Hendari or King Unstey) or Whitewall (Hendriki or maybe King Bryon earlier). If you want five Bearwalkers, there are five Orlanth great temples, that you can easily locate them to.

[French Desperate WindChild]

to be sure I m understanding correctly -there may be some subtility I did not catch- :

Does that mean that the Odayla subcult of Orlanth proposes all the spells provided by the Odayla full cult AND the common spells provided by the Orlanth cult (dimiss air elm, increase/decrease wind, etc...)

 

In that case is there any secret the full cult has that the orlanth subcult does'nt ?

or is it "just" that the Odayla cult lost its conexion with Orlanth so is "worse" than the Orlanth-Odayla subult?

 

I have in mind that a subcult has less spells than a full cult (because not fully dedicated to the "entity/god", some ) but, in the other hand, gains some benefit/spells from its "parent cult". But I may be totally wrong ?

 

[David Scott]

28 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

to be sure I m understanding correctly -there may be some subtility I did not catch-

Does that mean that the Odayla subcult of Orlanth proposes all the spells provided by the Odayla full cult AND the common spells provided by the Orlanth cult (dimiss air elm, increase/decrease wind, etc...)

If you wanted, but I'd just give them the Associate Orlanth spell. The point of POW is just magic glue that makes it work (like Yinkin's). I'd have the point of POW buy Summon small elemental and leave it at that. They just want to be bears not their brother, but they want to hang out with their brothers. 

28 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In that case is there any secret the full cult has that the orlanth subcult does'nt ?

You're missing that the subcult is a single bearwalker with maybe some initiates. Not a huge organisation. The full cult only exists far away. Outsiders couldn't tell them apart. Functionally there's no difference. There is fluidity in the cults system.

There are effectively three brothers are are inseparable Orlanth, Yinkin and Odayla. So much so that their spiritual practices overlap. 

28 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

or is it "just" that the Odayla cult lost its conexion with Orlanth so is "worse" than the Orlanth-Odayla subult?

No they are the same, Orlanth supports his brothers. 

28 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I have in mind that a subcult has less spells than a full cult (because not fully dedicated to the "entity/god", some ) but, in the other hand, gains some benefit/spells from its "parent cult". But I may be totally wrong ?

Overall, just don't overcomplicate it, there aren't many of them. The cult is already tiny.

Quote

A subcult is a smaller and often local version of a cult, which worships a local variant of the deity, a minor god subservient to the deity, an ancient hero, family ancestors, or an obscure spirit surviving from the God Time. Such deities are always worshiped as aspects of, or otherwise in association with a greater deity. The lesser deity obtains its glory and existence from the larger cult.

Subcults, page 282

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by David Scott

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you wanted, but I'd just give them the Associate Orlanth spell. The point of POW is just magic glue that makes it work (like Yinkin's). I'd have the point of POW buy Summon small elemental and leave it at that. They just want to be bears not their brother, but they want to hang out with their brothers. 

oh I see

so to rewrite with my words ( sorry you are breaking all my cult system model ^^ ), there would be, in the Orlanth cult, two types of subcults :

those who are "mask" (?) of Orlanth (Rex, Adventurous, Thunder, Vinga) as described in page 301 section Orlanth. They gain the full "special rune magics (all subcults)"

 

and those who are very closed deities (Yinkin, Odayla, Barntar, maybe those "awaken" in the eleven lights,  etc..) and are worshipped in the Orlanth temples, but as they are not Orlanth but its kin, they don't gain the full "special rune magics (all subcults)" but only the Orlanth's spell provided by the association.

In this way, does that mean a Orlanth Priest consider them in the same way than any Orlanth initiate ? or are they  little bit different and the Orlanth priest has less power on a Yinkini / Odaylan than on a Adventurous ?

[JRE]

So, a workaround when you do not have enough worshippers for a shrine, but there are good mythical reasons for both cults to be together. I suppose there is only one runepool as functionally it is all Orlanth. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, JRE said:

I suppose there is only one runepool as functionally it is all Orlanth. 

yep another question then, is there one runepool for Orlanth thunderous and Orlanth Odayla or because one is an orlanth's mask and the other a god, does that mean two runepools ?

[David Scott]

52 minutes ago, JRE said:

So, a workaround when you do not have enough worshippers for a shrine, but there are good mythical reasons for both cults to be together. I suppose there is only one runepool as functionally it is all Orlanth. 

34 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yep another question then, is there one runepool for Orlanth thunderous and Orlanth Odayla or because one is an orlanth's mask and the other a god, does that mean two runepools ?

• Personally I would have an Odayla rune pool and a single point of Orlanth rune pool with which the associate spell is bought (Summon Air Elemental (small). That would satisfy my link between Odayla and Orlanth (in a similar fashion to Yinkin and Orlanth. I wouldn't stop players increasing their Orlanth pool for more small air elementals.
• Alternately keep it all Odayla. (stops wandering from bear ideals)
• Alternately keep it all Orlanth Odayla. (danger of mixing with Orlanth and loosing bear ideals)

pick one. Each has its own benefits and flaws.

[JRE]

I was assuming that Orlanth Odayla, as a subcult of Orlanth, shares in Orlanth's runepool, and that is what changes from Odayla as a separate cult.

If you later find an Odayla temple, separate from Orlanth, and you join as an Odayla initiate, I would allow the player to decide how they split the runepools, with a minimum of 1 point in each deity.

No extra POW needed, as you already paid 1 POW to join the subcult, on top of the POW to join Orlanth. However your time requirements will change, which is OK for a bearwalker, who may lapse in Orlanth and have the Orlanth Runepool become one use, and also may be justified for a Champion, who probably prefers to keep both runepools active. 

One of those cases where multiple initiation makes sense, but it may not be feasible for the small size of the cult. 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

oh I see

so to rewrite with my words ( sorry you are breaking all my cult system model ^^ ), there would be, in the Orlanth cult, two types of subcults :

those who are "mask" (?) of Orlanth (Rex, Adventurous, Thunder, Vinga) as described in page 301 section Orlanth. They gain the full "special rune magics (all subcults)"

They are all Orlanth.

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

and those who are very closed deities (Yinkin, Odayla, Barntar, maybe those "awaken" in the eleven lights,  etc..) and are worshipped in the Orlanth temples, but as they are not Orlanth but its kin, they don't gain the full "special rune magics (all subcults)" but only the Orlanth's spell provided by the association.

I'd only do this with Odayla and Yinkin. They are tiny cults, but closely associated with Orlanth.

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In this way, does that mean a Orlanth Priest consider them in the same way than any Orlanth initiate ? or are they  little bit different and the Orlanth priest has less power on a Yinkini / Odaylan than on a Adventurous ?

I'd just keep them Yinkin or Odayla. The Wind Lord / Storm priest has a Bearwalker in / at the temple who looks after them.

There are so few Bearwalkers that this will be a speciality of that temple (likewise Alynx priest, it even says in the Yinkin write up: There must be an opening for a Priest at one of the few Yinkin temples or a major or larger Orlanth temple must be willing to support the new Priest.)

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, JRE said:

One of those cases where multiple initiation makes sense, but it may not be feasible for the small size of the cult. 

Only the runelord or priest needs to initiate into Orlanth. Odayla / Yinkin initiates just follow their leader.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

An initiate of Barntar may become an initiate of Orlanth simply by sacrificing 1 point of POW to establish a link with Orlanth Thunderous. All the initiate’s Rune points with Barntar are added to those of Orlanth, and for that initiate, Barntar becomes effectively a subcult of Orlanth Thunderous.

 

Which brings us back pretty much back to the original topic. The first sentence there is duplicated under the writeups of Orlanth's other independantly-worshipped kin; Yinkin and Odayla.  The second is not. My reading is that it should be; alternatively there could be a description of what happens instead. As written it seems to be meaningless; by the base rules, almost anyone can so initiate, and so the close mythic connection between those gods apparently counts for nothing.

Note also the sentence under spirits of Reprisal; 'these spirits do not come into action when initiates transfer to an associate cult'.  They don't have that caeveat abput leaving a cult, so unless that sentence is an orphan from some earlier understanding of how things work, transferring between cults must be something distinct from leaving one and joining another.

Fully writing down the rules for initiation into subcults that also have minor independant worship would probaly take a paragraph or two; do you not see the advantages of writing that in one place and referencing it where relevant?

 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 7/18/2022 at 5:32 PM, David Scott said:

 Yinkin initiates just follow their leader.

That's very rare in cats. Is in a, 'By sometime next week.' kinda way?

[Ali the Helering]

1 minute ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

That's very rare in cats. Is in a, 'By sometime next week.' kinda way?

Nah.  Probably 'smack on the nose if you disagree' kinda way

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

1 minute ago, Ali the Helering said:

Nah.  Probably 'smack on the nose if you disagree' kinda way

I meant 'I will do it by', but I can see the subtle use of persuasion some leaders are able to employ, by your example.

[David Scott]

Fortunately the human followers of the shadowcat god aren't actually cats, so Initiates are expected to follow the commands of the god of the cult as expressed by the priests of the temple. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

26 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately the human followers of the shadowcat god aren't actually cats, so Initiates are expected to follow the commands of the god of the cult as expressed by the priests of the temple. 

Well, sure...

This is why a truly wise Yinkin Priest never gives a command.

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This is why a truly wise Yinkin Priest never gives a command.

I do run the Yinkin cult as having an unusually relaxed hierarchy. 🙂

[French Desperate WindChild]

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I do run the Yinkin cult as having an unusually relaxed hierarchy. 🙂

seems to me perfectly acceptable

I see priests using seduction (and sometimes intimidation) than pure hierarchic authority to "lead" their initiates.

[Hteph]

To add to this already to long and tiresome thread with people screaming about their own headcanon, I just want to point out that bears are not great hunters, the best are probably Polar Bears and they miss like 95% of their attacks.

What bears are is survivalists, they are one of the most omnivorous animals in existence. To me the Odaylans are (like someone wrote about earlier) a cult for those who like to live in the wilderness outside of the thula. Trappers etc, and they hunt not with bows, but with spears and knives and clever traps and opportunities (drop bear, eh!).

I prefer to look at cults as how they have a role in the society, and less of role in production and adventuring.