Yinkin in society, holy places

[Martin Dick]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not exactly high praise...  🙂

I play the Orlanthi tank with heavy armour, lots of protection and Shield when it gets serious and seriously I wouldn't like to fight either of them. Now, if I could trap them at the end of a corridor, I'm pretty sure I could take them, but if we're in the woods, I'd have trouble even seeing them and you can't parry missile weapons, so not faint praise at all, they both hold up their part in combat perfectly fine and actually give us options a Humakti or Babeester Gor wouldn't. Of course in the campaign, we never dungeon bash, if we were playing that kind of campaign, then they wouldn't be anywhere as effective

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

but if we're in the woods, I'd have trouble even seeing them and you can't parry missile weapons, so not faint praise at all, they both hold up their part in combat perfectly fine and actually give us options a Humakti or Babeester Gor wouldn't.

I agree that hanging back and shooting is a valid and effective combat tactic.  And that a Yinkin or Odaylan should be good at this.

However, I don't see where those cults actually give players much of a bonus to doing that.  That is my complaint.   No initial bonuses to Hide or Missile.  And not much in spells.  O.k., Odayla does offer speedart, though I question it's usefulness since it halves your rate of fire. 

I don't see why a Humakti or Babs can't be just as good an archer, should they choose to do so.  And an Orlanthi possibly better.  While there's no way a Yinkin could be anyway close to them as a fighter.  That's the "unfairness".

What am I missing?

 

[Shiningbrow]

23 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that hanging back and shooting is a valid and effective combat tactic.  And that a Yinkin or Odaylan should be good at this.

However, I don't see where those cults actually give players much of a bonus to doing that.  That is my complaint.   No initial bonuses to Hide or Missile.  And not much in spells.  O.k., Odayla does offer speedart, though I question it's usefulness since it halves your rate of fire. 

I don't see why a Humakti or Babs can't be just as good an archer, should they choose to do so.  And an Orlanthi possibly better.  While there's no way a Yinkin could be anyway close to them as a fighter.  That's the "unfairness".

What am I missing?

 

No cult offers up specifically missile weapons in the Cult section of Chargen, although a couple do allow for it as "other" (Humakt). So generally, you're just looking at Occupation skills.

I also notice that Yinkin only has 2 cults skills to 'choose' from - whereas (all?) others have at least 3. So, there's an opportunity there to remedy that. However, bears and cats don't tend to use missile weapons, but their claws and teeth.

I would definitely suggest Yinkin have a couple of sub-cults to show the different roles he's played in the Storm Tribe's mythology, including the hunter aspect with Orlanth, and thus some missile weapon love. And regardless of sub-cult or not, Move Quietly should definitely be a cult skill in Chargen (cos, he's a cat!)

31 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And that a Yinkin or Odaylan should be good at this.

Except - Odayla is a bear, and Yinkin was usually a cat...

The problem I'm seeing is that people are thinking that cult and occupation should be very closely related... but they're not always. You're demanding that the god follow the desires of the cultists. And people follow them because they like the solitary nature of the god (and in particular, in the wilderness), not usually because they want to be good hunters. Odayla is a "hunter" because bears hunt... but he's not a bear because he hunts. So, to worship and honour Odayla (and Yinkin), you do what he (they) did - and again, bows aren't it. Sure, if you want to create a Hero cult that has missile weapons, then you can add what you want.

(it should also be noted that Yinkin was also a spirit, so should have some spirit cults around somewhere as well)

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

The Odaylan might be a RuneLord or the GM might have allowed them to be a Runepriest or maybe they are just a strong Initiate. It's a bit hard to tell a strong initiate from a new RunePriest and we haven't had to use DI recently. But the reason why there are lots of RunePriests is because it's much easier to reach the qualifications for RunePriest than RuneLord in general. 50% is easier than 90%, especially with the current character generation system. As an example, my Orlanth Adventurous initiate was planned to become a WindLord and he's still a way off that (5 skills at 90% can take a long time, especially if the dice don't roll well) and when the Orlanth Thunderous character qualified for RunePriest, I thought, if they can do it maybe I can and sure enough, the character also met the qualifications for an Orlanth Thunderous RunePriest, so a double initiation into Thunderous and some roleplaying and use of reputation, and he became a RunePriest first. As the long term goal was to be a RuneLord/Priest, it just reversed the order in which it was done.

As for your specific question about strictly following cult writeups, personally I've always treated canon as guidelines/suggestions. I like canon because it gives me a baseline to work from and indicates what the designers were trying to do, but I feel no compunction about changing/ignoring canon if I want to, so unless you are writing for Chaosium or if you want your Jonstown Compendium product to stay within cooee of the Chaosium product, for me there's no need to strictly follow anything in the rules book or the other products. 

Most cults do not have Rune Lords. It is much easier to become a Rune Priest than a Rune Lord, and many cults have never developed the pathways - including some very powerful cults such as Ernalda, Magasta, Shargash, Polaris, and Valind. 

[Jeff]

Not all cults are equal. Orlanth is the god of Storm, Adventurers, and Kings, who led the Lightbringers into Hell. He's a first tier cosmological entity worshiped by hundreds of thousands of initiates throughout the world.

Yinkin is the god of shadowcats. Only reason he has much of a cult at all is he is Orlanth's loyal half-brother and sidekick who accompanied Orlanth on many adventures.

[French Desperate WindChild]

personaly I think that rqg (or any role playing game in fact) is totally game balanced...

 

 

a cult, or an occupation may be les powerful than another, but it is not a game balance issue. (except one shot adventure) any player can choose any role / cult / occupation / ... it is their choice

the true issue is gm may be unbalanced. Some GM will be able to give enough satisfaction to all the table, whatever the characters are "balanced" or not when other will be unable (not a judgment, people have different weakness, that's life and diversity.)

 

but I agree, if you're not enough confident in both your capacity to play and maximize with your imagination your character* effectiveness  and your gm's ability to manage everything well, yes, be prudent and choose a more "standard" archetype, learn from others, experiment some eccentricity and have fun. And maybe, next character, you will find a way you have not yet seen, and what you knew as eccentrity may become your next pleasant standard of play

 

* I m clearly unable to play a Ty Kora Tek priestess but have no issue to play a yinkini. Before the white bull campaign, I was even unable to imagine playable a Ty Kora Teki... so that is not the person you are, that's the "matching" between you and a character type

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Most cults do not have Rune Lords. It is much easier to become a Rune Priest than a Rune Lord, and many cults have never developed the pathways - including some very powerful cults such as Ernalda, Magasta, Shargash, Polaris, and Valind. 

Why do some cults fail to develop the pathways to be a normal priest? I find Shargash and Polaris not having Rune Lords a little surprising given their primary role as war gods, I hope the reason for this is mentioned in the upcoming full writeups. 

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Why do some cults fail to develop the pathways to be a normal priest? I find Shargash and Polaris not having Rune Lords a little surprising given their primary role as war gods, I hope the reason for this is mentioned in the upcoming full writeups. 

War gods does not necessary equate to Rune Lords. Rather they are those cults who have found it necessary to have mortal manifestations of the god that interact with the physical world (as opposed to primarily with the magical world). Some of that is for historical reasons, some of that is for mythological reasons.

The cults with Rune Lords are:
Orlanth (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Humakt (only Rune Lords)

Storm Bull (only Rune Lords)

Lanbril (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Odayla (only Rune Lords)

Waha (Rune Lords and Rune Priests-Shamans)

Ygg (only Rune Lords)

Foundchild (only Rune Lords)

Kyger Litor (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Zorak Zoran (only Rune Lords)

Yelm (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Yelmalio (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Yelorna (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Seven Mothers (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Crimson Bat (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Danfive Xaron (only Rune Lords)

Hwarin Dalthippa (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

Yanafal Tarnils (only Rune Lords)

Babeester Gor (only Rune Lords)

Aldrya (Rune Lords and Rune Priests)

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I would definitely suggest Yinkin have a couple of sub-cults to show the different roles he's played in the Storm Tribe's mythology, including the hunter aspect with Orlanth, and thus some missile weapon love. And regardless of sub-cult or not, Move Quietly should definitely be a cult skill in Chargen (cos, he's a cat!)

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And that a Yinkin or Odaylan should be good at this.

Except - Odayla is a bear, and Yinkin was usually a cat...

First, I agree with a lot of what you say, including Move Silently and missile fire.

Where I differ is the "Odalya is a Bear, Yinkin is a Cat" therefore they have to be like that.  I've played in hundreds (thousands?) of RQ games, including many of the standard scenarios.  In various adventures, it has been important to be able to fight, to shoot, to run away, to heal, to negotiate, to know obscure facts, to deal with spirits, to fight trolls, to fight chaos, etc.  (Obviously, choosing cultish archetypes here...)

I have never ever found it important to be a bear or a cat.

If that is the real purpose of the cults, they are a pointless waste of time for PCs.

[Rob Darvall]

19 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except - Odayla is a bear, and Yinkin was usually a cat...

So where are the perception bonuses? 15% or 20% to Track is it.
The survival bonuses? Overwintering being something bears are famed for.
A big part of the point is that the worship/behaviour as written DOES NOT reflect the nature of the god.
As written they make for an inconsistent narrative.
Why worship bears (except maybe as propitiation) or alynx if it gains you and the clan so little? If it has gains, how do the rules demonstrate this?
If Oddi is a crap hunter because he was called by the bear god instead of a competent hunter god like Orlanth why should the clan support him? Gods that produce net social losses should not have miniscule cults, their cults should be extinct. At best a lone shaman or 2 in the tribal tula.
But they're not extinct. So there should be a noticable benefit to having them around, even as edge cases. To avoid gameplay/story segregation the rules need some reflection of this. Not for balance, for story.
We're playing RQG because it's a good way to tell the story of Glorantha. Where those rules introduce holes (real or merely percieved) in that story we SHOULD look to fill them.

pre-empting YGMV; it does.

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

First, I agree with a lot of what you say, including Move Silently and missile fire.

Where I differ is the "Odalya is a Bear, Yinkin is a Cat" therefore they have to be like that.  I've played in hundreds (thousands?) of RQ games, including many of the standard scenarios.  In various adventures, it has been important to be able to fight, to shoot, to run away, to heal, to negotiate, to know obscure facts, to deal with spirits, to fight trolls, to fight chaos, etc.  (Obviously, choosing cultish archetypes here...)

I have never ever found it important to be a bear or a cat.

If that is the real purpose of the cults, they are a pointless waste of time for PCs.

All cultists try to be more and more like their gods if they want to go further and further, deeper and deeper into the mysteries of that cult (ie, Initiate and further up to Rune mastery). They do the same sorts of things that their gods did. Most people don't. Certainly, even though they believe in those gods, they don't actively worship them. 

Specifically here, for both Odayla the bear, and Yinkin the cat: "it has been important to be able to... fight (both have done), shoot (not a missile user, but as previously discussed), run away (both have done), heal (certainly mentioned somewhere, no doubt), to know obscure facts (both have done), to deal with spirits (pretty sure both have done), to fight trolls (I don't recall specific mentions), to fight chaos (I don't recall specifically for Odayla, but Yinkin has).

So, since you've done those, you've actually emulated those 2 gods...

Some cultists will certainly do the transforming as well to get fully into it. But, like any other god, you don't need to go the whole hog (or bear.. or cat...) to be a good, up-standing member of the cult. (I would suggest though, that anyone who is heading for Priest for either of these does have the spells to become a cat/bear at least once a year.)

The question then comes down to - how much of the god's actions need to be represented within the cult description? And, I think, it largely seems to be in the Cult section of Chargen that people are complaining, as well as appropriate Rune spells - but you can make those yourself. As for the Chargen... Orlanth was a hunter, where's his hunter skills? Argan Argar is the premier troll god of trade - where's the Bargain??? Where's Tradetalk? Where's Evaluate?  Ernalda is the Queen... where's her queenly skills like Orate* or Intimidate? Intrigue? Insight*?

(*in the Chargen)

Going back to Rune spells - Orlanth is (in)famous for playing the bagpipes in the Celestial Court... where's his spells  for being a bard, piper, harbinger of death and ear-gouging?

So, I'm going to suggest a couple of things. a) wait for the GoG book to come out that may rectify such things. And b) if it's not sufficient (or in the meantime), houserule what you think they need in... (I'm currently working with Ian Thomson on the Pavis book... we're introducing new magics and skills all the time... so, go for it!)

(perhaps one quick solution for all GMs & Players - in the Chargen skills, allow 1 exchange for any of the other listed cult skills).

 

"If that is the real purpose of the cults, they are a pointless waste of time for PCs." Depends on what you think the purpose of a PC is... and what players want out of the game.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

So where are the perception bonuses? 15% or 20% to Track is it.
The survival bonuses? Overwintering being something bears are famed for.
A big part of the point is that the worship/behaviour as written DOES NOT reflect the nature of the god.
As written they make for an inconsistent narrative.
Why worship bears (except maybe as propitiation) or alynx if it gains you and the clan so little? If it has gains, how do the rules demonstrate this?
If Oddi is a crap hunter because he was called by the bear god instead of a competent hunter god like Orlanth why should the clan support him? Gods that produce net social losses should not have miniscule cults, their cults should be extinct. At best a lone shaman or 2 in the tribal tula.
But they're not extinct. So there should be a noticable benefit to having them around, even as edge cases. To avoid gameplay/story segregation the rules need some reflection of this. Not for balance, for story.
We're playing RQG because it's a good way to tell the story of Glorantha. Where those rules introduce holes (real or merely percieved) in that story we SHOULD look to fill them.

pre-empting YGMV; it does.

I'm actually confused.

How, exactly, does joining Orlanth make you a better hunter than either Odayla or Yinkin? Orlanth has neither the cult skills or spells for hunting (unless you really like doing it the redneck way, and just Lightning or Thunderbolting your prey...). Do you want to hack your prey to death with a broadsword?

Both of these "hunter" cults have the skills... although, I acknowledge (and would change - see my previous post) that there should be some adjustments to the starting cult skills. But as I also wrote above, Orlanth (for example) has many other roles, and yet the Chargen cult skills don't reflect those. Same with Ernalda... Why doesn't Yelmalio have 1H Pike & Shield in their cult skill selection - it's something he's famous for (well.... not, but it's actually a similar argument to yours).

2 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

If it has gains, how do the rules demonstrate this?

Odayla - Cult Skills: Climb, Hide, Missile Weapon, Move Quietly, Peaceful Cut, Scan, Survival, Track.  Spirit Magic: Detect Life, Disruption, Mobility, Protection, Slow, Speedart, Strength.  Special Rune Magic: Bear’s Skin, Bear’s Strength, Claws... and Transform Self. (I've removed the less huntery spells and skills)

Yinkin - Cult Skills:  Climb, Hide, Move Quietly, Scan, Speak (Beastspeech), Survival, Track. Spirit Magic: Coordination, Detect Life, Disruption, Mobility, Silence, Slow. Special Rune Magic: Catseye, Charisma, Claws, Identify Scent.. and Transform Self. (again, I've removed the less huntery spells and skills)

So, what of the above is not a demonstration of being a hunter? And what do you want to add to the above to make it more huntery?

2 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

A big part of the point is that the worship/behaviour as written DOES NOT reflect the nature of the god.

I don't see it.... In fact, I see it as much more closer than many of the others (and therein is the problem - it's closer to the god, and not how players use the cults.

Sure, there needs to be more details - but I can say that for literally all the cults as written in the RQG. Hence, a gods book is coming out with long-form write-ups.

 

I just want you to answer 1 question - do you think either of those cults should have Sureshot?

 

(BTW, technicality... "So where are the perception bonuses? 15% or 20% to Track is it." - remember that you can add a further 15-20% on top of that, as per p73)

Edited July 6, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Rodney Dangerduck]

22 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

How, exactly, does joining Orlanth make you a better hunter than either Odayla or Yinkin?

1) Darkwalk.

2) Spells to change the wind direction so game can't catch your scent, and you can listen for it

3) Flight or Leap to catch fleeing game.

That's without even thinking.

[Jeff]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm actually confused.

How, exactly, does joining Orlanth make you a better hunter than either Odayla or Yinkin? Orlanth has neither the cult skills or spells for hunting (unless you really like doing it the redneck way, and just Lightning or Thunderbolting your prey...). Do you want to hack your prey to death with a broadsword?

Both of these "hunter" cults have the skills... although, I acknowledge (and would change - see my previous post) that there should be some adjustments to the starting cult skills. But as I also wrote above, Orlanth (for example) has many other roles, and yet the Chargen cult skills don't reflect those. Same with Ernalda... Why doesn't Yelmalio have 1H Pike & Shield in their cult skill selection - it's something he's famous for (well.... not, but it's actually a similar argument to yours).

Odayla - Cult Skills: Climb, Hide, Missile Weapon, Move Quietly, Peaceful Cut, Scan, Survival, Track.  Spirit Magic: Detect Life, Disruption, Mobility, Protection, Slow, Speedart, Strength.  Special Rune Magic: Bear’s Skin, Bear’s Strength, Claws... and Transform Self. (I've removed the less huntery spells and skills)

Yinkin - Cult Skills:  Climb, Hide, Move Quietly, Scan, Speak (Beastspeech), Survival, Track. Spirit Magic: Coordination, Detect Life, Disruption, Mobility, Silence, Slow. Special Rune Magic: Catseye, Charisma, Claws, Identify Scent.. and Transform Self. (again, I've removed the less huntery spells and skills)

So, what of the above is not a demonstration of being a hunter? And what do you want to add to the above to make it more huntery?

I don't see it.... In fact, I see it as much more closer than many of the others (and therein is the problem - it's closer to the god, and not how players use the cults.

Sure, there needs to be more details - but I can say that for literally all the cults as written in the RQG. Hence, a gods book is coming out with long-form write-ups.

 

I just want you to answer 1 question - do you think either of those cults should have Sureshot?

 

(BTW, technicality... "So where are the perception bonuses? 15% or 20% to Track is it." - remember that you can add a further 15-20% on top of that, as per p

Orlanth makes a terrible hunting god. Air elementals, lightning, thunderbolt, flying - these are lousy abilities for catching rabbits or deer.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Orlanth makes a terrible hunting god. Air elementals, lightning, thunderbolt, flying - these are lousy abilities for catching rabbits or deer.

Try reading my post.

Darkwalk and Windwarp are very useful to hunters.  Wind Words to listen if game are in a certain area.  Leap and Flight could be useful.  Flight is especially useful in rugged mountain terrain.

Even a 1 point lightning, to spook the game towards you, could be useful.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Jeff]

You would blow a Rune point to "spook the game"? How are you going to survive as a hunter?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

You would blow a Rune point to "spook the game"? How are you going to survive as a hunter?

I said "could be".  There's a herd of deer, spooking them towards you, or towards your friends in ambush, or maybe over a cliff, is a classic move.

One big benefit of Orlanth is that, with all those associated cults and minor holy days, recovering rune points is fast.

[Shiningbrow]

Ok @Rodney Dangerduck, I'll take on this seriously.

56 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1) Darkwalk.

2) Spells to change the wind direction so game can't catch your scent, and you can listen for it

3) Flight or Leap to catch fleeing game.

That's without even thinking.

Sure, they could all be handy. However, they don't make them better than either Yinkin or Odayla.

Firstly, given that Orlanth offers no hunting skills whatsoever, how is this "hunter" going to even find the right place to even be able to find the game to catch them? Sure, you could Flight around a lot... but that might need a good bit of  Extending... (too bad your Scan is likely to suck).

Darkwalk is great - at night and maybe under heavy foliage. But, seriously, as Jeff said above - you'd blow a Rune Point on that? As said above, you need to be fairly close to your prey for that to be useful - and we haven't established that you can find them.

 

The other 2/3/4 spells you've mentioned all have the same issue... Once you've found your quarry, then you can use them. You may as well add Teleportation to the list, or Thunderbolt.

 

And, of course, what does the new Initiate, with only 1RP do? Sure, you could use that 1RP for any of your above, but then, what do you do for the rest of the season? Go back to the town/city to participate in some associate cult's Seasonal or High Holy Day? Apparently Orlanth will have a Minor Holy Day each week, but that's a lot of trudging about for an Initiate to do.

 

Basing a "good" hunter cult on only the Rune spells available is unwise, and it certainly doesn't make it "better". So, do you have anything else to justify the claim?

[Shiningbrow]

58 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Orlanth makes a terrible hunting god. Air elementals, lightning, thunderbolt, flying - these are lousy abilities for catching rabbits or deer.

I think you are overlooking the great benefit of not having to skin and cook your prey after you've just fried it! That's the Gloranthan version of fast-food. (and, with the Umbroli, you can get home delivery!)

[Martin Dick]

2 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

We're playing RQG because it's a good way to tell the story of Glorantha. Where those rules introduce holes (real or merely percieved) in that story we SHOULD look to fill them.

But I'm not seeing the story hole here, any competent player who wants their starting character to be a reasonable hunter or better and who initiates to Odayla or Yinkin can definitely create such a PC through the character creation process. And they will definitely be better hunters than an Orlanthi who has focussed on being a warrior. This is speaking from experience. 

[Martin Dick]

23 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I don't see why a Humakti or Babs can't be just as good an archer, should they choose to do so.  And an Orlanthi possibly better.  While there's no way a Yinkin could be anyway close to them as a fighter.  That's the "unfairness".

What am I missing?

What I think you are missing is:

1. RQG doesn't try to balance things out in terms of rules, yes, it's unfair that the BG and H are the best at melee combat, but that unfairness is baked into Glorantha, and personally I think that it is a good idea that the rules reflect that Gloranthan unfairness. And if you don't think it's a good idea then the changes to remedy it are pretty easy in this case of Odayla/Yinkin as hunters as of course there are a whole bunch of new rune spells out there for PCs to find and learn and adding some new cult skills/spirit magic is very easy.
2. Your cult while important is just one of the factors in determining your capability, so yes a Babeester Gor could become a good hunter and that's not even a bad character conception. A BG who is focussed on hunting down malefactors and enacting vengeance upon them would be an interesting character to play.  But if they do, then they probably won't be as good at the standard things for BG. It's quite possible to develop a character to be good at a particular occupation without necessarily being in the optimal cult. Humakti scholars, Orlanthi hunters, Lhankor Mhy duelists, Chalana Arroy vampire hunters, Issaries healers etc. etc. etc. It's a strength of the BRP system as a result of it being skill-based and not class based that you don't have to follow the stereotypes, if you don't want to be. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

28 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Firstly, given that Orlanth offers no hunting skills whatsoever,

Other than Track, Odayla and Yinkin offer no bonuses to initial hunting skills.  Their Scan and Survival will be no better than an Orlanthi hunter.  I agree that they should have a significant advantage, but they don't - only a small one.

 

28 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Sure, you could use that 1RP for any of your above, but then, what do you do for the rest of the season?

Huh?  First, I'm a PC, so I probably have 3 RP.  Second, I will go to the weekly Orlanth minor holy day and recover 3.5 rune points.  Or one of the many associate cult seasonal holy days.  An Orlanthi (with GM permission to travel, so YGMV) can recover many dozens of rune points per season.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

yes a Babeester Gor could become a good hunter and that's not even a bad character conception. A BG who is focussed on hunting down malefactors and enacting vengeance upon them would be an interesting character to play.  But if they do, then they probably won't be as good at the standard things for BG.

Thanks!  This is actually a wonderful concept should I ever roll up a hunter character.  They'd likely be merely "o.k." at hunting and melee, but versatile and fun.  Made this whole argument worthwhile.

[Shiningbrow]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Other than Track, Odayla and Yinkin offer no bonuses to initial hunting skills.  Their Scan and Survival will be no better than an Orlanthi hunter.  I agree that they should have a significant advantage, but they don't - only a small one.

To PC Chargens in cult skills - yes (although, I'd say that Track is the most important of the hunting skills). But that's been addressed already. I also find it odd that some cultists will have 4 skills to choose from, while Yinkin only has 2. Clearly, adjustments need to be made!

RE: Scan and survival... yes, but that's in the Occupation.... What's Orlanth's main role, such that their available cult skill bonuses are only for Orate, Speak Other Language
(Stormspeech) and Sing? Seems to be a lousy warrior cult! Ernalda only gets Dance, Animal Lore or Plant Lore, Sing, and  Speak Other Language (Earthtongue).. what's her role supposed to be? Her cultists do sod all! (yes, I'm taking the pun there).

So, what I'm saying is - cult skills aren't the only important thing to consider.

14 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Huh?  First, I'm a PC...

Yes, your PC is. So, should all cults only be written with the PCs in mind? I would suggest not.

I am sensing an element of elitism though. If your PC can't hit 80-90% in their main skills (plural), then they aren't worth playing.

19 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

An Orlanthi (with GM permission to travel, so YGMV) can recover many dozens of rune points per season.

Yes, you could. And that's an option.

I still don't think it makes it a *better* hunting cult. To make it a *better* hunting cult, you'd need to do the exact same thing we're suggesting you do to Odayla and Yinkin - make your own adjustments.

 

 

OMGs, I only just realised/noticed.... why do neither of them have Animal Lore? Literally, probably the very first skill any hunter would have to learn! "Animal Lore represents knowledge of wild fauna".

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

OMGs, I only just realised/noticed.... why do neither of them have Animal Lore? Literally, probably the very first skill any hunter would have to learn! "Animal Lore represents knowledge of wild fauna".

Because you get that from being a Hunter. The cult itself doesn't teach beyond that.