Yinkin in society, holy places

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

OMGs, I only just realised/noticed.... why do neither of them have Animal Lore? Literally, probably the very first skill any hunter would have to learn! "Animal Lore represents knowledge of wild fauna".

At least we agree that the so called hunting cults are missing a lot of hunting skills.  Maybe add Scan and Survival too.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

At least we agree that the so called hunting cults are missing a lot of hunting skills.  Maybe add Scan and Survival too.

You are always welcome to do that in your games. But nothing in this thread has made me think that we should change the rules or writeups.

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

At least we agree that the so called hunting cults are missing a lot of hunting skills.  Maybe add Scan and Survival too.

Ummm, no, we don't agree as much as you think. The cults actually have those skills as cult skills, and one can get training in them.

Where we are disagreeing is purely on whether any of those skills should be in the Chargen section for cult skills, and thus adding 15-40%. And that really means - has the cult specifically gone out of its way to teach them to the new Initiate as an important part of being a member of that cult? Given the other skills that are taught (Worship, Cult Lore, Sing, Meditation, etc.), I'm personally not convinced that they are that integral to the nature of the cult itself, such that they have that level of priority, in the same way that Orlanth doesn't focus on any warrior skills.

For Odayla, certainly Peaceful Cut is a very important skill to the cult. Singing is obviously related to Worship. Track... debatable.

For Yinkin, Beastspeak (for having friendly philosophical discourse with your alynx), and Track - again, debatable. Probably should have mewl rather than sing (which appears to be missing).

I do agree that Survival should probably be a part of both, and especially Yinkin, given the requirement to stay in the wilderness alone for a year... that's missing, and can be fairly easily argued.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Where we are disagreeing is purely on whether any of those skills should be in the Chargen section for cult skills, and thus adding 15-40%.

And if you look through all the cults, in general they get two skills plus Sing. That's it. Odayla and Yinkin both get Track, one gets Beastspeech and the other gets Peaceful Cut. All good Hunter skills.

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

I just want you to answer 1 question - do you think either of those cults should have Sureshot?

 

 

Neither _god_ provides that magic directly. _Players_ of both _rune cults_, as written, do have access to Sureshot, from their association with FoundChild.

There is, I suspect, an area of ambiguity or interpretation in the rules where different people are playing things very different. Each are imaging their way is the only way to play, and so not seeing the problems the other side has when they play things differently.

When the rules say 'Rune Cult X provides Rune Spell Y to  Rune Cult Z', than, as I understand it, what that actually means is _shrines_ contained in _temples_ to  _god_ X can _routinely provide_  spell Y to followers of that temple. It says nothing about access to that spell from other means. Which would mean adventure seeds or downtime tasks, including distant foreign travel, dangerous rituals or minor heroquests. The Great Hunt mentioned in the writeup for Yinkin and Odayla is such an example.

Things get funky when you have, as with Yinkin and Odayla, a minor god that is _both_ a subcult of the cult of the great god Orlanth and a minor independent cult in its own right. If you are initiated into Yinkin Catbrother, are you also initiated into Yinkin Shadowcat, and vice versa?

To answer that question, you have to go back to the basics of how initiation works. When you pass an initiation test, you don't get a written certificate (except perhaps for the Lunars [1]). Instead, you learn a spell, create a new Rune Pool with only that spell in it, and write in 'initiate of X' on your character sheet.

The secret of Runequest Sight was lost with the God Learners. So when other people, including temple officials, want to check if you are already an initiate, there are a few ways.  Maybe they already know you, because they or their colleague initiated you. Maybe it is the next clan over, and they know of you via your reputation, or that of their your parents. Maybe they ask you to prove yourself, by casting cult magic or repeating an initiation test.

But mostly they, or the temple spirits, use Soul Sight, Divination or equivalent power to look at what your Rune Pool looks like. So being an initiate of X functionally means having a Rune Pool that demonstrates that. Hence much of the magi-political history of Glorantha; entirely different cults can worship the same god under different masks.

By that logic, normally, if you had strong beast rune magic, that would disqualify you from learning the inner secrets of Orlanth without first proving yourself. But Orlanth and Yinkin are best friends or brothers[2] . Hence the statement in the cult writeup 'Yinkin cultists may initiate to Orlanth by simply donating 1 POW'. This is not, as you might think from that single sentence out of context, an additional cost on top  of the rules that would otherwise apply. But simply a way of saying that initiates of Yinkin Shadowcat (the independent version) can learn any Storm/Movement spells from any Orlanth temple that provides them, at the standard cost, without  having to pass an additional initiation test, or establish a new independant Rune Pool. Having done so, they are still a Yinkin initiate, still a cat brother. They don't update their  character sheet to say 'initiate of Orlanth'. They are not splitting their time between worshiping at two different temples; they are worshiping Yinkin at a shrine in an Orlanth temple.

They are now just expressing the 'kin' part of their identity [4].

[1] Naturally the Lunars use their extensive bureaucracy to record cult status, not only because there tends to be more internal migration, but to try to cope with the threat of illuminates doing corrupt or subversive things.

[2] I think Odayla is usually more of a cousin.

[3]  I suspect you would still need to pass a test to get the magic of gods associated to Orlanth.

[4] 'Yin' is presumably the Heortling for 'cat'.

 

[PhilHibbs]

6 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Neither _god_ provides that magic directly. _Players_ of both _rune cults_, as written, do have access to Sureshot, from their association with FoundChild.

Where does it say this? Sureshot is not listed as being provided by association.

[PhilHibbs]

On 7/3/2022 at 6:58 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Side note: awakened shadowcat companions are incredibly powerful, arguably more powerful, at least in the short and medium term, than a beginning PC.  Can you say "huge skill bonuses and species max POW 28"?  The Family Heirlooms table is another example of where the game designers ignore game balance.

You can't start out with an awakened shadowcat companion on the heirlooms table.

[radmonger]

26 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where does it say this? Sureshot is not listed as being provided by association.

That's the point of the post; interpreting what 'provided by association' means. Yinkin temples (the three that exist, per Jeff) do not have shrines to Foundchild, at which you can routinely learn one specific spell without talking to the GM. But still they are associated. So my interpretation/ruling is you are, as an initiate of either Yinkin version, entitled to participate in the Great Hunt, either as a full in-play adventure, or narrated downtime activity. One possible outcome of either is learning a new rune spell. And hence there a no shrine-based limitation on what spells you learn. Though remember there is very little point in getting a spell that you don't have the Runes for [1].

I suspect the main reason Yinkin even has the limited prominence he does is as a route, or mythic justification, for regular Orlanthi hunters to participate in the Great Hunt [2].

[1] non-Kitori Orlanthi having Dark Walk is more of a way to troll trolls than an actually functionally usable stealth spell. 

[2] both in-game and out; there is no point in publishing an adventure that requires 3-5 players all of the same cult. So a good GM will always apply a bit of creative mythology to explain how everyone who needs to will qualify.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by radmonger

[PhilHibbs]

19 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So my interpretation/ruling is you are, as an initiate of either Yinkin version, entitled to participate in the Great Hunt, either as a full in-play adventure, or narrated downtime activity. One possible outcome of either is learning a new rune spell. And hence there a no shrine-based limitation on what spells you learn.

I don't see that anywhere either. Page 295 says "normally only Master Hunters take part", and there's no mention of anyone learning new spells.

Edited July 6, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[radmonger]

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't see that anywhere either. Page 295 says "normally only Master Hunters take part", and there's no mention of anyone learning new spells.

I take it you more of a 'everything not expressly permitted is forbidden' type of guy? 

I think the original Great Hunt scenario was in Griffin Mountain, which I don't have to hand. But I don't see why it would be mentioned in the context of a Rune Cult if it wasn't a (dangerous, or at least requiring high skill) way of getting Rune spells.  

[PhilHibbs]

It does raise another question though. Foundchild is a Praxian cult. Yinkin and Odayla are not. So where does this Great Hunt take place? Do Bearwalkers have to travel to Prax every year, or are parallel ceremonies held across Dragon Pass? Can an Odaylan or a Yinkin become a Foundchild Master Hunter?

Sometimes the text implies that there is just one annual Great Hunt event. Others imply that each Praxian tribe has their own, since they allow initiates to take part if there is a vacancy for Master Hunter, and "tribal elders judge the quality of the various animals brought in". If the former is true, and two tribes both need a Master Hunter, and "Only one new Master Hunter can be created in a year", then I suppose one tribe has to do without for a year.

[PhilHibbs]

Just now, radmonger said:

I take it you more of a 'everything not expressly permitted is forbidden' type of guy? 

Not at all, I'm just checking if I've missed something. You're backing up a point with assertions that are written as if they are quotes from the books. If I were making a point like that I'd say "and I'd allow someone winning a Great Hunt to learn any new Foundchild spell". Which I very well might! But what you wrote implied that all Odaya/Yinkin initiates get access Sureshot by association with Foundchild, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of that.

[PhilHibbs]

40 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Though remember there is very little point in getting a spell that you don't have the Runes for [1].

[1] non-Kitori Orlanthi having Dark Walk is more of a way to troll trolls than an actually functionally usable stealth spell. 

What do you mean by that? Dark Walk is castable with  which pretty much all Orlanthi will have. Not so many Odaylans or Yinkin, but in my opinion they're likely to go for that or  as their other duality rune for the augment options.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

And if you look through all the cults, in general they get two skills plus Sing. That's it. Odayla and Yinkin both get Track, one gets Beastspeech and the other gets Peaceful Cut. All good Hunter skills.

In my book, Yinkin doesn't have Sing, and it's not in the WoD corrections.

And I agree with those skills being useful.

[radmonger]

 

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Dark Walk is castable with  which pretty much all Orlanthi will have.

Ok I withdraw that point; I assumed, without checking, it was a Darkness rune spell. I guess its nature is you do not create darkness. You start in darkness, or otherwise out of sight; you move while taking those conditions with you. 

Somewhat useful for sneaking up on prey, especially hunting of specific dangerous quarry, and so the Great Hunt. But useless for evading predators.

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Neither _god_ provides that magic directly. _Players_ of both _rune cults_, as written, do have access to Sureshot, from their association with FoundChild.

That wasn't the point of my question.

The point was, being animal gods, does it make sense for them to have (provide themselves) a spell for a human weapon?

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

In my book, Yinkin doesn't have Sing, and it's not in the WoD corrections.

And I agree with those skills being useful.

I was talking about what the cults give, in general. There are some exceptions, Yinkin is one of them.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't start out with an awakened shadowcat companion on the heirlooms table.

Roll a 12.  And maybe push the limits a bit, though it does explicitly mention "such as a cat".

At least, that's what our group did.  Incorrect?

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Roll a 12.  And maybe push the limits a bit, though it does explicitly mention "such as a cat".

At least, that's what our group did.  Incorrect?

if size 2 (and there are size 2 shadowcat), that's for me perfectly raw

the only point, in my opinion, is to not confuse "awakened shadowcat" with "allied spirit in a shadowcat"

you've got a sentient beast not a spirit sent by your god

[Rodney Dangerduck]

29 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

size 2 (and there are size 2 shadowcat), that's for me perfectly raw

True.  I think we ruled that it was a kitten and it grew a bit with time.

And yes, its not an ally, but still very useful and powerful.

[PhilHibbs]

44 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

if size 2 (and there are size 2 shadowcat), that's for me perfectly raw

Oh you're right, I thought they were bigger than that!

44 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the only point, in my opinion, is to not confuse "awakened shadowcat" with "allied spirit in a shadowcat"

Yes, it isn't an allied spirit, but it can learn and cast magic.

Edited July 6, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

48 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, it isn't an allied spirit, but it can learn and cast magic.

...and the first thing it should do is learn the Strength spirit spell so it can get rid of that negative damage modifier.

[Joerg]

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It does raise another question though. Foundchild is a Praxian cult. Yinkin and Odayla are not.

While Foundchild is a spirit that harkens back to Nomad Gods, I am less convinced that the cult is Praxian in origin or distribution. There certainly is a bigger proportion of Foundchild (and Brother Dog) cultists among the Votanki than there are in Prax, where hunting is a quite secondary source of food and support.

 

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So where does this Great Hunt take place?

I would expect there to be several Gret Hunts where hunter cult members congregate to celebrate their high holy day, whether through serious contest for the title of master hunter or just participating "for the rune points" and the unity with their deity/spirit.

 

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Do Bearwalkers have to travel to Prax every year, or are parallel ceremonies held across Dragon Pass? Can an Odaylan or a Yinkin become a Foundchild Master Hunter?

I expect there to be parallel ceremonies held by region, with hunters from all over participate. In Prax, Men-and-a-Half and Basmoli may be over-represented in the tribal make-up because their tribes rely on hunting more than the pastoralists.

The exact place of the Great Hunt ceremony might be determined by last year's victor.

 

[PhilHibbs]

21 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It does raise another question though. Foundchild is a Praxian cult. Yinkin and Odayla are not.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

While Foundchild is a spirit that harkens back to Nomad Gods, I am less convinced that the cult is Praxian in origin or distribution.

I didn't mean to say "exclusively Praxian", I meant "is present in Prax" as against Yinkin and Odayla which are not. But the Homelands section of the rulebook lists the religions that are found in each region, and Foundchild is not mentioned in Sartar, neither are Yinkin and Odayla in Prax. If they are a rounding error in Sartar, then they are an infinitessimal in Prax.

[soltakss]

On 7/6/2022 at 5:22 AM, Shiningbrow said:

How, exactly, does joining Orlanth make you a better hunter than either Odayla or Yinkin? Orlanth has neither the cult skills or spells for hunting (unless you really like doing it the redneck way, and just Lightning or Thunderbolting your prey...). Do you want to hack your prey to death with a broadsword?

Some people pick on a spell and say "Look, this deity has the best spell in the world so makes a better hunter than other deities.

On 7/6/2022 at 5:47 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1) Darkwalk.

2) Spells to change the wind direction so game can't catch your scent, and you can listen for it

3) Flight or Leap to catch fleeing game.

See ...