Giant Sized Weapons

[Erol of Backford]

I have been looking at some of the larger creature encounters and their base weapon damage dice. Bigclub is size 69 but holds a puny stick that does 2d8? Bunscotto, Warren's, etc. all use broom handles for weapons or so it seems. I found one Great Troll (clip below) who uses a larger sword which does 2d10 but this got me wondering at what size would a creature be able to use a 2 handed sword one handed or say a 2 handed spear? Also would a larger sword, spear, etc. not do more damage? If you look at crossbows or say a siege arbalest, maybe a giant has someone make a ballista for them?

Has anyone made a table where the weapon damage increases as the size of the creature using does? Also at what size and strength would 2 handed weapons become 1 handed. Say a large troll size 30 with sword and shield (likely they don't have swords but its an example). Won't the look funny with small broadsword that looks like a toothpick. Suddenly they become much more menacing in appearance with either a great sword in one hand or very large 2 handed human sized maul wielded 1 handed in lieu of a 1 handed size 11 human heavy mace and oh, they happen to have a huge kite or hoplite shield that would stop a truck... Any ideas or thoughts are appreciated.

[Darius West]

In an ideal world we would have a program that would employ real world physics to the problem.  The force would come directly from the Size & Strength of the person wielding.  The area connecting with the enemy would dictate the level of damage as a fractional multiplier based on surface area.  The weight of the item would also be involved in the calculation of the damage etc.

In the case of giants we have no hard and fast rules.  What we can say for certain is that the damage bonus for giants is (frankly) catastrophic for player characters.  Unless you have Shield of Arran or a good dodge, your character will likely die because you cannot meaningfully parry a giant.

As a rule of thumb, your average human is Size 13, so if you divide the Giant's size by 13 (round down) you could then raise the damage based on how big the Giant is, but there is some sort of square rule for height to SIZ.  SIZ is a bit of a nebulous and problematic stat that is generally geared around human dimensions but develops problems (which are otherwise not obvious) when applied to other creatures.  So if a Giant is SIZ 39, double the weapon damage, if the giant is 78 double it again (I think...(I'm trying to remember the rule a friend proposed here)).

Feasibly if a weapon employs 2 dice (like greatsword 2d8), you can add an extra dice for every 13 SIZ (so siz 26 giant does 3d8 with his oversized greatsword).

For the most part, Giants will never be able to afford metal gear; it is simply too expensive for them, especially as they keep growing.  They will be limited to wooden items no larger than the largest tree on their continent, and are unlikely to develop much more than clubs.  Of course Hero Quests are also a thing...

[Yinkin]

I would say that the increased Damage Bonus accounts for the larger size of the weapon. I would not bother changing the damage dice for the weapon, in the case of a giant's weapon the DB would be the greater part of the damage anyway, and rolling 2d8+6d6 or 3d8+6d6 or something would not make a huge difference anyway.

And if someone smaller would want to try to use it... well, that would be a plot point itself, but I would probably rule that the awkwardness of using a weapon not constructed for your size would cancel out any advantages that comes from the larger size.

Unless there was some HeroQuesting shenanigans involved, of course, and in that case it becomes a magic weapon and unique to itself.

[French Desperate WindChild]

yes, the main point is the damage bonus. And if this DB is high enough to overkill an opponent, don't try to do anything more (just my advice)

 

However,  @Darius West answer is interesting

I would just add one point :

- a STR restriction. with the same rule than x2 SIZ = new dice, the needed STR would be increased: x2 SIZ = x2 STR.

a weak giant is big but... weak

Aa any good french lover knows  (adult only)

Spoiler

Il n'y a pas que la taille qui compte

 

And I support a lot Darius point about availability. Of course a very very big giant would be able to use a mountain as weapon but... a standard one would be limited by the trees and other material he can find

[PhilHibbs]

I agree with the "damage bonus" calls. Yes, the system is asymmetric and built for ease of use above realism. Bigger weapons start off doing more damage, and you get damage bonus on top, but at the top of the human range the weapon damage stops increasing and the damage bonus takes over.

There are a few glitches. If one 12m giant stabs another with a giant spear and specials, they only get double weapon damage plus one damage bonus. This is practically indistinguishable from a normal hit's damage. Maybe that's why giants exclusively use crushing weapons like clubs and rocks!

[Darius West]

Spoiler

la circonférence compte toujours

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

Visualize a giant spear: a shaft made out of a small redwood or a straight mature ash tree and a blade made of a ton of bronze.  

I wouldn't give that the damage of any  human sized spear.  RQ doesn't have rules for siege weapons but what kind of damage would you give to a battering ram?  Then add the ability to impale.

 

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

For the most part, Giants will never be able to afford metal gear; it is simply too expensive for them, especially as they keep growing.  They will be limited to wooden items no larger than the largest tree on their continent, and are unlikely to develop much more than clubs.  Of course Hero Quests are also a thing...

If the PC's get the Ring of Ockless and actually befriend a giant or two and gave them armor, huge cost but it would be lots of fun to see that. Also the were some notes on developing trade with giants, Gonn Orta, etc. I assume going into the mountains or even Snake Pipe Hollow with a few friendly giants along would make things easier.

Also if a PC is a smith/leather worker they could somehow fashion adjustable armor, add links to extend lengths, etc. that would be fun to roleplay as well.

Curious how the giants would be included and or the subject of a Hero Quest, I'd like to know more on that?!

[jajagappa]

12 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also the were some notes on developing trade with giants, Gonn Orta, etc. I assume going into the mountains or even Snake Pipe Hollow with a few friendly giants along would make things easier.

I think the challenge in either case is to find FRIENDLY giants.  There are clearly some (there are a couple known to visit the Imther Mountains, possibly to trade with dwarfs there or visit old mountainous kin).  But they seem to be very rare vs. the kind associated with Disorder.

In Snake Pipe Hollow, the giants work ok in the open areas or very large cave openings, not so well if you're going deeper into the caves.

In the Elder Wilds, you'd have to determine what foes might be drawn to the giants.  The elves likely see them as foes.  The dwarfs might go either way.  The trolls might be friendly(er).  But they might also draw Chaos out from its hiding places,...  

[Erol of Backford]

So how big and strong does say a great troll (as an example) need to be to wield a 2H sword or 2H spear in one hand? Likely the haft or handle was thickened as needed to be comfortable for them?

[Jason Farrell]

You don't need to increase the damage of the weapon by strength.  The strength bonus takes care of that.  The materials don't change, the force with which the weapon is swung does.

[AndreJarosch]

Have a look at the "Glorantha Bestiary": 

Shadowcat claw 1d6-1d4
Puma claw 1d6+1d4
Lion claw 1d6+2d6

The claws of a lion are bigger than the claws of a shadowcat, but the base damage is the same: a claw is a claw. 
The damage bonus (which also represents size) makes the difference. 

This is not different with clubs or spears IMHO. 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Have a look at the "Glorantha Bestiary": 

Shadowcat claw 1d6-1d4
Puma claw 1d6+1d4
Lion claw 1d6+2d6

The claws of a lion are bigger than the claws of a shadowcat, but the base damage is the same: a claw is a claw. 
The damage bonus (which also represents size) makes the difference. 

This is not different with clubs or spears IMHO. 

 

But the existing weapon tables do show different damage by size of weapon, before adding in the damage bonus.

Small 1H ax, 1D6+1.  Great Axe 2D6=2.

Dagger 1D4=2.  Greatsword 2D8.

Light mace 1D6=2.  Two handed mace 1D8+2.

Javelin 1D6.  spear, long 1D10+1.

 

[Monty Lovering]

With weapons I think it’s fair to top out the damage bonus beyond 1d6 if the weapon isn’t made to match the strength of the wielder.  

Those great troll body guards are gonna need extra big greats words to get that 2d6 damage bonus. 

And if it sounds silly a giant using a normal heavy mace would only get 1d6 damage bonus, think how awkward it would be to use one for them. 

Problem with weapon damage in RQ is it’s confused. One can say the damage bonus takes care of it but light maces do less than heavy maces. Because physics. A sword with a longer edge has more damage potential (drawing cuts) than one with a short blade. So I do have ‘giant weapons’ on my weapons tables that do a little bit more.  

But you can ride the impala into crazy town very easily and end up with some weapons doing more damage on large creatures. Which might be true but is a bit much to remember. 

[PhilHibbs]

12 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But the existing weapon tables do show different damage by size of weapon, before adding in the damage bonus.

Small 1H ax, 1D6+1.  Great Axe 2D6=2.

Dagger 1D4=2.  Greatsword 2D8.

Light mace 1D6=2.  Two handed mace 1D8+2.

Javelin 1D6.  spear, long 1D10+1.

Yes, it's inconsistent. Some weapons scale only by damage bonus, some do more damage for being larger than others. But nobody wants to change the weapons table too much from how it was in 1978, so we're stuck with it. If anyone wants to make up a new weapons table and new damage bonus mechanics to go with it, then go for it! But compatibility with old material means most of us stick with the old ways.

Edited July 8, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Erol of Backford]

 I love the game, have since the early 80's but am easily able to say a huge weapon does a bit more damage, following the parallel with light/heavy (2d6+2 & 8 ENC)/siege arbalest (3d6+1 & 10.2 ENC)/ballista (10d6 & ?ENC). Wanted to know others' take on the idea that a tree does the same damage as a 2H maul 1/100 its mass of course not counting the strength bonus.

Also was curious how big a creature would need to be to shoot a ballista like a crossbow... thanks all for the comments!

[Monty Lovering]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

But nobody wants to change the weapons table too much from how it was in 1978, so we're stuck with it. If anyone wants to make up a new weapons table and new damage bonus mechanics to go with it, then go for it!

Been there. Done that.

Might have been here or in the Fb Group I outlined it. 

I have changed SR to reflect weapon speed and how it’s used, so it’s no longer a size metric alone.

Weapons do less damage, so a dagger will do 1d4, +1 as it’s generally good vs armour, so can still  deliver a moral blow on a special or crit, but don’t on have the ability to 0LHP. Larger ‘small’ weapons with more kinetics/edge do 1d6, +1 or +2 if superior vs armour, so Small Axe is 1d6+1.

‘Normal’ sized weapons do 1d8, same pluses for armour performance. So a broadsword is 1d8, a spear 1d8+1 (which with the SR being lower makes a spear a superior weapon to a sword just like IRL). 

Use such a weapon with two hands it does 1d10, so a large axe does 1d8 +1 one handed, 1d10+1 two handed.

’Large’ weapons like great sword, great axe, etc., do 1d12 as a base with pluses if good vs armour.

Ranged weapons have a better range system and bows of the same construction come in different strengths so high STR characters can get more damage.

I did play with changing the damage bonus system effectively moving 1d4>+1, 1d6>+2, 2d6>+1d4, 3d6>+2d6, etc., but that got dropped.

I also played with weapons having a parry % multiplier (of the unified weapon skill in RQG), so like x1 for a sword or x0.5 for a battle axe to simulate some weapons are just better at parrying, but it was messy and got dropped.

But once you’re familiar with the homebrew table it’s easy to convert on the fly. But I tend to dump NPCs into a battle sheet in Excel, or an NPC character form if playing online, so it just happens automatically.

Obviously loads of people aren’t bothered by the somewhat eccentric weapons tables but for me it’s a value add.

 

 

 

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

I did for a change consult the old RQ3 Player's Book which seems to leave it to the DM. Still curious as to thoughts on a creature using a human 2H spear 1 handed. Recall where in the LotR Frodo get stuck by a Cave Troll using a human 2H spear 1 handed? How big or strong would a say a troll need to be to use human 2H weapons 1 hanged?

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:31 AM, Erol of Backford said:

So how big and strong does say a great troll (as an example) need to be to wield a 2H sword or 2H spear in one hand? Likely the haft or handle was thickened as needed to be comfortable for them?

So, the way at worked in our games was actually an artifact of old school D&D and Conan. Our GM used to play AD&D Dragonlance when he first got into RPGs and the Max Strength a human could roll was an 18 and the 100/100 on 1d100. Characters with Max Strength could use Greatswords 1 handed like Conan the Barbarian. I dunno, I wasn't even alive when this tradition started but, it stuck.

This means that in our Glorantha a Human can use a Greatsword 1 Handed at 21 STR, a troll would need Species Max STR for wielding 1 Hand Troll Mauls, which would be freaking METAL!

We never really cared much about DEX requirements. Just used the ones from the charts. 

[g33k]

I think the point about the huge DB is spot on.

At a certain point, I no longer care what the weapon is:  If the Giant rolls a hit, it's dodge-or-die:  YOU CAN'T PARRY THAT 5H1T (and be damned to anything different from the rules).

###

Of course, at the point where the PC's are facing that sort of foe, it's likely they have other options than straight-up combat; and even in-combat, they likely have options like, "Whaddaya mean, dodge it???!  I'ma Legolas that sucker:  jump on the tree-trunk, run up his arm, and stab his eyeballs!"

Edited July 10, 2022 by g33k

[HreshtIronBorne]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Of course, at the point where the PC's are facing that sort of foe, it's likely they have other options than straight-up combat; and even in-combat, they likely have options like, "Whaddaya mean, dodge it???!  I'ma Legolas that sucker:  jump on the tree-trunk, run up his arm, and stab his eyeballs!"

Edited 2 hours ago by g33k

We have had many moments where a PC decided to do something bonkers like Teleport onto the shoulder of the giant. Or get thrown up onto the back of the Avatar of Cacodemon. It is always a blast!

[Monty Lovering]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

At a certain point, I no longer care what the weapon is:  If the Giant rolls a hit, it's dodge-or-die:  YOU CAN'T PARRY THAT 5H1T (and be damned to anything different from the rules).

Very true. I think there might be a case for (in addition to making damage bonus less cartoony) actually doing some RQ3 stuff, like autoknockback if damage over SIZ. 

I mean, the system treats damage like the target does not react to the kinetics but absorbs it all. 

At a certain point the ouch gets converted to F=Ma, at least with edged and impact weapons. 

Obviously this makes a giant with a spear truly dreadful.

Bur even got crunch-obsessed people like me at a certain point lovely complexities lovely designed get dropped as they don’t add fun. 

[ffilz]

FOES has some 3d10 tree trunks...

It's been so long since I've used a really big humanoid I haven't given large weapons much thought.

[JRE]

We thought quite a lot on this in our RQ3 days, mainly because, how much damage bonus can you add to a knife? Add a sorcerer with Boost Strength, and 2d6 damage was possible. And then we had discussions in how easy it was to use a troll maul.

So we used a house rule (that we ignore now as unnecessary, but it may return as Strength is stronger than in RQ3) that each weapon was made for a DB, and it could be used by the ones before and after. So most human light weapons are made for DB0, so can be used for DB -1d4, 0, +1d4, while heavy weapons are made for +1d4, so they can be used with 0, +1d4, +1d6. Troll mauls are made for +1d6 normally, so you need at least +1d4 to use properly, and they can give you up to +2d6. Giant clubs would need a giant DB bonus to use, as you need both SIZ and STR, though a very strong guy could use a small giant's club. So a giant with a human dagger would only get +1d4 damage bonus (how can he hold it?) and would be better off hitting with a fist. Characters with high strength either had to get custom weapons (an enchanted lead staff for +2d6 damage was a good example) or use natural weapons. It was not realistic, but it felt right when getting +20 STR to drop the puny dagger and go at it barehanded. 

We did not increase the base damage, but we increased the weight as you increased the DB of the weapon. So that +2D6 Staff was eight times as heavy as a normal staff (staff was in our light weapons class). Which is why lead was the way to go without increasing the size. 

How much free time we did have in the 80s and 90s!

[Monty Lovering]

6 minutes ago, JRE said:

We thought quite a lot on this in our RQ3 days, mainly because, how much damage bonus can you add to a knife? Add a sorcerer with Boost Strength, and 2d6 damage was possible. And then we had discussions in how easy it was to use a troll maul.

So we used a house rule (that we ignore now as unnecessary, but it may return as Strength is stronger than in RQ3) that each weapon was made for a DB, and it could be used by the ones before and after. So most human light weapons are made for DB0, so can be used for DB -1d4, 0, +1d4, while heavy weapons are made for +1d4, so they can be used with 0, +1d4, +1d6. Troll mauls are made for +1d6 normally, so you need at least +1d4 to use properly, and they can give you up to +2d6. Giant clubs would need a giant DB bonus to use, as you need both SIZ and STR, though a very strong guy could use a small giant's club. So a giant with a human dagger would only get +1d4 damage bonus (how can he hold it?) and would be better off hitting with a fist. Characters with high strength either had to get custom weapons (an enchanted lead staff for +2d6 damage was a good example) or use natural weapons. It was not realistic, but it felt right when getting +20 STR to drop the puny dagger and go at it barehanded. 

We did not increase the base damage, but we increased the weight as you increased the DB of the weapon. So that +2D6 Staff was eight times as heavy as a normal staff (staff was in our light weapons class). Which is why lead was the way to go without increasing the size. 

How much free time we did have in the 80s and 90s!

I like that mechanic. 

My current campaign is ending in a month or two so I will be making some changes for the day I find a group of idiots who’ll let me GM for them again.

The “made for db” is a good addition.