Initiations

[Shiningbrow]

I'm watching the min-series (10 episodes) of an Italian production called Romulus , set in the 8th C BCE.

There's no 'real' magic, but it's presented as the people would think there is.

In the 4th episode, a character wants to follow the path of Mars. However, there are no skill rolls made.

Instead, it's endurance. And the right reason. And commitment to the ideals of the god, again tested through endurance. (I'll spoiler it below)

So, do you require your PCs to have to have more than just the passed 5 cult skill rolls to be accepted?

How about making PCs work for Initiation?

So, for a cult like Babeester Gor, some more extreme rites that they must pass. Con rolls at x1 or x2? Multiple tests?

(I know that for a non-troll, attempting to join KL (and I presume ZZ), can mean death if you fail)

 

While I'm sure there are those players who think they can play a Babs who isn't a psychopath, and thus shouldn't have to play a character like that, they do have to hang around them as a matter of course.

Maran Gor requires males to be eunuchs... I'd call for a Con roll, as well as some other roll to ensure the priestess doesn't slip. And if they do - no heals!

 

 

Spoiler

She's hung up by barbed wire, and hung over a fire until it goes out.

I'd make that Con x1 roll, with serious potential maiming for failure (or failure at a certain level), otherwise some other scarring or injury, etc is left behind.

 

 

(Obviously, different people come to RQ with different intentions, and may not want to go down that path. After all, it's supposed to be 'fun'.)

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

do you require your PCs to have to have more than just the passed 5 cult skill rolls to be accepted?

How about making PCs work for Initiation?

If it was an interesting part of the story, then yes I might make them undergo a more specific trial to be initiated.  Usually doesn't happen as they start initiated in play, but if I was running a game like Six Seasons in Sartar starting with adulthood initiation and moving forward then I might.

When my player's Shaman character underwent the test for shamanhood, I extended that with a more substantive trial than just rolling for the Bad Man (though that was part of it).

[icebrand]

Well, what would be the point of making them roll? I kind of need context for this!

Im gonna assume this is RQG and you are roleplaying initiations either at session 0/1 or as a flashback.

So, you need not only to prepare the whole initiation ritual, but also figure out how they can succeed when (if) they fail the rolls; so maybe if they fail the endurance test they need to succeed on a harder challenge (with cult skills?) but again keep in mind what could happen if they fail again?

Maybe failing everything but persevering and pushing on anyway in the face of defeat was the *real* challenge all along?

Now, if failing the initiation is a real possibility, i honestly believe the CON rolls are "overly punsishing" for a "normal" RQ Game (maybe in your glorantha initiates are fewer and very special?)

[Squaredeal Sten]

I would like to see a model for a non- youth initiation.  Three of my six players in my Zoom game have chosen to be initiates of additional cults in the past year.  One started Orlanthi and then joined Issaries after working a caravan in which the merchant wanted everyone to become lay members, so that was a fair natural progression.  One started as Lhankor Mhy and then added Orlanth.  The third started as Chalana Arroy, became Illuminated and hit the CHA barrier, and has lately added cults to get more rune spells.  That's the one for whom I most wish I had a model for a dramatic  initiation later in life.

  

Edited July 11, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Arcadiagt5]

22 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

While I'm sure there are those players who think they can play a Babs who isn't a psychopath, and thus shouldn't have to play a character like that, they do have to hang around them as a matter of course.

Interesting thread. I do take some issue with the general characterisation of Babeester Gor as psychopaths. My own thoughts are that, yes, the cult does support the more extreme members who are the (in Fate/Grand Order terms) the Avengers of Glorantha but that these form the minority of the cult. I will grant you that they might be the majority of adventurer members of the cult (although I’m currently playing one with a very high Harmony rune who is community minded). 

But the majority of the cult are the temple guards who need to be organised and disciplined as a matter of course - working in teams, fighting as a unit when the temple is threatened, organising watch/guard rosters (what, you think the Earth priestesses do that?), etc.

Admittedly there is perhaps a disconnect between the role of the goddess in the mythology, and the role of her cult in society. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

If you start the campaign with pc already initiates I would just ask them to describe, if they want, what happened (maybe some hooks for later)

then there are initiation during play. 
there are from my perspective two types of initiations : gods we all know and secret societies

for gods we all know (aka pc included) I would build with them the ceremony and maybe add an accident when a roll fails

for secret societies yes it is probably terrifying and you must « die » (at least like irl initiations, but… maybe « really ») to come back with your secret knowledge/ transformation 

Note that  and / or  known cults would have probably some desperate or suffering or raging experience.

Despair could be only facing other suffering or what you will loss or what you fear (pow roll to possibly trigger some event)

suffering as you described @Shiningbrow yes con roll could be fine

Rage will let you face some enemy  (yours or your people) doing bad things. I would say like despair, pow roll)

in all cases, from my perspective, these rolls should not decide if yes or no they are initiates (cult’s description shows you what is mandatory ) but more some additional point (critical may offer you gift, fumble some geas,… maybe some new passion hate/fear/ etc…)

[French Desperate WindChild]

in addition some weird/secret subcult or sub-subcult of known cults could request same hard event for example if you find odayla should have sandals of darknes (I don’t know why I think about this ….) why not add this test : the man find the bear during the night, so in a cave so in full darkness bla-bla-bla so big fear so pow roll so if critical yes you may sacrifice pow for this spell.

Or why not giving the same opportunity to negate some taboos (still if critical)  Like some fire magic for some light god. Of course the initiate will have some issue with the regular worshippers who will see it as blasphemy…

but then it is a « our glorantha may vary » taste

Edited July 10, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Darius West]

On 7/9/2022 at 2:43 PM, Shiningbrow said:

However, there are no skill rolls made.

Instead, it's endurance.

I am all for GMs who would rather play through an initiation and give players the decisions and all that extra Lozenge flavor.

[JRE]

I would consider three main initiation cases. 

- The priests want most initiates to succeed, and minimal casualties as they perform a lot of initiations. This is the case of most major cults. The initiation is usually rehearsed, and although there may be exhaustion / endurance trials, failing them does not disqualify you. Most risks are mythical, taking place on the other side where death is not the end. Being a major cult makes it easier to transpose the ceremony to the hero plane.

- The priests want only worthy characters to succeed, but are not out to kill them. Small cults with a specialized social role, such as Humakt, Lhankhor Mhy or Babeester Gor. Here ordeals and trials (not only physical. I am sure LM has a disqualifying written exam in the initiation) are common, to test both physical and mental fortitude, though normally nothing lethal as otherwise most people will not try to join. As the cult is small, in many cases the trials are mundane, not mythical.

- The priests want only the right people, and that failures do not survive. Secret cults such as Lanbril, Black Fang or chaos cults in hiding. Here the initiation trials can be as lethal as desired, as long as enough candidates survive to replenish the losses. All kind of tests, ordeals and trials are possible. But physival may be only a small part, as they will be testing mostly for mental fortitude and loyalty.

[radmonger]

One distinction that exists in my Glorantha is between rural clan/tribal based society on the on be hand, and urban 'civilised' worship. In the former, basic initiation is by a somewhat dangerous[1] magical ordeal, with the outcome determining which god you are chosen by. Roll to join, as per the standard rules, the list of available cults, in order of preference or GM whim. Failing _all_ initiation rols has bad consequences; it probably shouldn't happen to a actually played PC. Luckily there are no shortage of gods to roll tests for.

Urban people generally regard initiating 15 year olds to Humakt as a war crime. Instead, initiation is not universal; it is typically associated with the completion of a professional apprenticeship, military training, or similar. It represents a test of the skills taught. Failure simply means you try again after more education, assuming you or your familiy can afford it.

Sartar has both, with an indistinct boundary . Much of the HQ-era material describes Sartaritre rural society, whereas earlier publication eras focused on cities.

 

[1] maybe a death per decade per clan?

[Eff]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:43 AM, Shiningbrow said:

How about making PCs work for Initiation?

Making those skill rolls is working for initiation. Any kind of physical endurance test or similar exists in the narration of those skill rolls and their consequences. I mean, if someone really wants to simulate out the effects of their character being castrated and has a high investment in assuming that the Maran Gor cult doesn't, uh, drug you or get you drunk enough to pass out so that the snippy-snip goes smoothly and cleanly as an exaltation of the self in accordance with Maran's glory... then I'd probably gently probe them about why they want their character to suffer and possibly start charging them for being an amateur psychotherapist during game sessions if the answers are serious enough. 

Jokes aside, I think there's plenty of room to explore initiation rituals and ceremonies in Glorantha. Depending on the precise tone, these might be hallucinogenic experiences like the entheogenic interpretations of the Greater Mysteries of Eleusis, or they might be serious rituals like the degrees of Freemasonry or they might resemble an episode of Jackass. There's many ways to take it.