Heal Rating Question

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

As it's a touch spell, assume that that Shield is not a problem, unless the situation calls for the ally to die. See MGF page 6.

Does that mean that Shield doesn't protect you from enemy Touch spells? This should probably be mentioned in the rules, in that case.

[Scotty]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Does that mean that Shield doesn't protect you from enemy Touch spells?

Shield clearly acts against enemy touch spells.

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This should probably be mentioned in the rules, in that case.

No, it's part of MGF.

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Shield clearly acts against enemy touch spells.

And Countermagic explicitly stops healing. 

Countermagic, RQG: "This defensive spell protects the target it is cast upon against
any other incoming spell, including those such as Detection,
Protection, and even Healing spells"

Woad specifically says it does only stop "hostile spells", unlike Countermagic.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Scotty]

57 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And Countermagic explicitly stops healing. 

Countermagic, RQG: "This defensive spell protects the target it is cast upon against
any other incoming spell, including those such as Detection,
Protection, and even Healing spells"

Woad specifically says it does only stop "hostile spells", unlike Countermagic.

MGF says “Now, in this situation what is the most fun?” and then go with it. That’s Maximum Game Fun (MGF). Keep this principle in mind whenever you apply the rules of RuneQuest to any situation.

If it's fun in your game to have the ally die then go with that, otherwise apply MGF and Heal goes through the Shield.

 

[Akhôrahil]

Personally, think a significant part of MGF is having things make internal sense and be consistent. And yes, this includes the conscious risk you take when you cast a big Shield on yourself - you can still be saved by first aid or someone punching through a big Heal. If I merely go with GM Fiat per individual case, how could the players understand how anything works? Especially if the ruling flatly contradicts the rulebook.

I can’t speak for anyone else, of course. But I think it might not be wise to put forward your individual MGF interpretation as an objective fact in a discussion about the rules. By the rulebook, boosting a healing spell can often make sense.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Does that mean that Shield doesn't protect you from enemy Touch spells?

Shield clearly acts against enemy touch spells.

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This should probably be mentioned in the rules, in that case.

No, it's part of MGF.

If a GM's MGF is to make Adventurers punch through Friendly Countermagic, then fine. After all, it's cruel and torments Players, so is good for me.

My personal MGF is to make things like this easy for the Players, so they think I am a soft GM, then I hit them with Dorastor, or a shower of acid, or incontinent harpy flocks, once I have lulled them into a sense of security.

 

[Frp]

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Personally, think a significant part of MGF is having things make internal sense and be consistent. 

To each his own. No one ever needs to resist a spell. Always thought magic knows who wants to hurt you or not. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Frp

[Darius West]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:05 PM, Scotty said:

Yes. There are few reasons to boost Heal (if any).

It just occurred to me...  Imagine a spell that acts as a form of Countermagic that will lock out anyone's magic but the caster's.  You cast that on the enemy and they now have no ability to defend from magic and have to boost their magic to even heal.  I think I would call the spell Imprison or something like that.

[Scotty]

23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I can’t speak for anyone else, of course. But I think it might not be wise to put forward your individual MGF interpretation as an objective fact in a discussion about the rules. By the rulebook, boosting a healing spell can often make sense.

It was in reference to your particular example of 

On 7/12/2022 at 10:05 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Punching through friendly Countermagic (typically in the form of Shield) on a KO’d ally is the obvious use

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It was in reference to your particular example of 

Yes, because this is something that does make sense by the rules as written. Obviously it doesn’t apply if the GM decides against using the written rules (which is of course fine - I have house-ruled more than my share), but that’s hardly a counter-argument to the point that this is case where boosting healing magic can be productive?

[Lordabdul]

On 7/13/2022 at 3:03 AM, Scotty said:

As it's a touch spell, assume that that Shield is not a problem, unless the situation calls for the ally to die. See MGF page 6.

Seems more fun to me that Shield and Countermagic do come with some downsides, but I'm sometimes an evil bastard with my players 😈  So yeah, MGF, and YMGFWV 😄 

FWIW, IMG it also does partially explain people coming back from fights/battles/raids with scars and injuries and missing limbs, because it was deemed too expensive to spend the extra MP to heal them, or all the MP was spent punching through the Countermagic of the important people...

[Baron Wulfraed]

34 minutes ago, Ludovic aka Lordabdul said:

FWIW, IMG it also does partially explain people coming back from fights/battles/raids with scars and injuries and missing limbs, because it was deemed too expensive to spend the extra MP to heal them, or all the MP was spent punching through the Countermagic of the important people...

And then there is the Humakt version of "Heal Wound", as described in the side-bar on page 330 or RQ:RiG (or page 56 or the Red Book of Magic) [emphasis mine]:

Quote

For example, Humakt‘s Heal Wound uses Death or Truth to mortify the wounded flesh so that the injury can be denied or ignored. It always leaves painful scarring.

So even with healing, it is possible to return with some nasty scarring.

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:48 AM, Baron Wulfraed said:

But anyone resisting a Heal must be insane or dead...

Or under a geas to not accept any magical healing....

Which could be a great way to take the Humakti out of the fight (if you're aware of such a geas).

[JRE]

For me the first question is: "How do you know what spell is being cast on you?", and a second one is "If you are unconscious, do you resist all spells?"

So it is possible I will not resist a spell that an ally is casting on me, if I trust them, but if you are unconscious or incapacitated, and those are the kind of people that need healing and need it now. Finally, many combatants would refuse healing from the enemies, specially if you expect you will end up as a prisoner / slave / blood sacrifice / bat chow / thanatari head.

Although intellectually I would have unconscious characters resisting all spells, MGF makes me allow allies not to refuse healing while enemies do. Countermagic and Shield do not differentiate, so they always protect, and a strong healing will break the countermagic. It is part of the decision process whether it is a good idea to cast a big shield spell. 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or under a geas to not accept any magical healing....

Never thought of how it's fine to heal the Humakti, as long as he or she doesn't accept the healing and you just blast through with POW vs. POW. 🙂

(Not sure what happens if you forcibly bathe a Yelmalian, though.)

Edited July 18, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Never thought of how it's fine to heal the Humakti, as long as he or she doesn't accept the healing and you just blast through with POW vs. POW. 🙂

(Not sure what happens if you forcibly bathe a Yelmalian, though.)

I presume they'd have to just cut their arm off again...

 

(yes, this goes for both the Humakti and the Yelmalion 🤪)

[soltakss]

Some GMs love to put obstacles in the way of Adventurers, just by extrapolating the rules.

Personally, I have many other ways of tormenting Players.

So, I let Heal ignore Shield and Countermagic, and allow it to work without a POW vs POW roll, as the Adventurer knows what kind of spell it is.

• Is it logical? No.
• Does it mean that all spells are treated the same way? No.
• Is it MGF? Yes.

 

[PhilHibbs]

We always ran with the house rule that Healing spirit magic could only be cast once per wound. Otherwise there’s virtually no advantage to knowing larger versions of the spell apart from the 6 points to reattach a limb. And casting speed.

The down side is “bookkeeping” but it’s usually not hard to remember. Once per location, unless the player knows they took more than one hit there. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

We always ran with the house rule that Healing spirit magic could only be cast once per wound. Otherwise there’s virtually no advantage to knowing larger versions of the spell apart from the 6 points to reattach a limb. And casting speed.

This is a fine idea, I think.

[Baron Wulfraed]

My old group (I've not actively played [ignoring the starter set soloquest] since the 90s) didn't limit healing in such a way. Everyone (or most everyone) had Healing 2 (and the rare person had the [then required to cross species -- our horses often took a lot of damage*] Xenohealing 2).

Healing 2 allowed one, while conscious, to cauterize severe wounds to prevent bleed out while the rest of the party was busy in combat. Subsequent heals after combat were to regain hit points sufficient to proceed with the adventure rather than having to side track to find a healing temple...

 

 

* Including a simultaneous equine killing: one Rear&Plunge [success on head] vs one critical Bite [hindquarters]... After battle  we concluded the bite came in under the rear, and the plunge then came down on the biter's neck... Somehow my rapier-wielding elf survived, and the opponent surrendered -- the rest of the party had downed their foes and were just standing around watching.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Baron Wulfraed