Switching from Humakt to Yanafal Tarnils

[Godlearner]

If a PC chooses to pick up the "other sword" and join Yanafal Tarnils cult, what changes if any will need to be made on the character sheet? Rune Pool? Worship skill? Gifts/Geases?

[AndreJarosch]

Have a look at 282, at the bottom of the left coloum: "Leaving the Cult"

If my memory isn´t failing me the Spirit of Retribution of Humakt will be that any straight sword the newly Yanafal Tarnils Initiate touches shatters. That is the reason they only use curved blades. 

[Godlearner]

39 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

Have a look at 282, at the bottom of the left coloum: "Leaving the Cult"

I am not sure it is the case with these two cults. 

[svensson]

 

Yanafal Tarnils and Humakt are completely separate cults, with entirely different myths and religious practices. Therefore the heretic would be effected by all of the penalties.

His Humakt spells become one-use. Once the RP are used, they're gone. His worship skill in YT starts at from 05% + Magic Skill Bonus. His Cult Lore likewise goes down to basic percentages. He suffers from the Spirit of Reprisal, once as an initiate and multiple times as a Rune level.

IMG, I don't particularly like this generic random spirit attack that RQG uses for apostates. Some of the earlier editions have curses to afflict apostates that are FAR more effective. In Humakt's case, an apostate suffers the Sword Breaker curse. No sword or sword-like weapon will ever serve him again. Any time he picks one up, it shatters in his hand. Yes, magical weapons included.

And with two similar deities like Humakt and YT, the decision as to whether one deity can protect a worshiper from the ire of another depends on several factors. In this particular case, I would rule that Sword Breaker does effect the heretic and that YT can't protect him because Humakt owns the Death Rune... the source rune of all swords.

Edited July 13, 2022 by svensson

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, svensson said:

Yanafal Tarnils and Humakt are completely separate cults, with entirely different myths and religious practices. Therefore the heretic would be effected by all of the penalties.

By this interpretation, nobody of any significance will ever change cults and sides.  Too huge a penalty.  Unless they use the cheat of illumination.

This may be mythically correct, but boring.  And still possibly wrong, since Annstad is on "both sides".

 

[svensson]

Yanfal Tarnils was an apostate Humakti. Sez so in the story of the Seven Mothers. One presumes that it was only his apotheosis as a God that preserved his ability to use a sword, which is pretty reasonable for Gloranthan mythology.

However you'll note that, just like everything connected with Sedenya, that ability is tainted. He may not use a straight sword, it must be curved. OK, this last bit is probably an Orlanthi talking, but you get my point.

So how can his cult have it both ways this side of Illumination?

[Darius West]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

 I would rule that Sword Breaker does effect the heretic and that YT can't protect him because Humakt owns the Death Rune.

There is an interesting problem here.  Humakt is effectively his own spirit of retribution, and he comes and snaps every sword the apostate touches (with their hands; the apostate copping a sword through the cranium somehow doesn't see the attacker's blade break despite having been "touched" by the apostate.  Go figure.)  Arguably if the apostate touches the hilt of their enemy's blade, it will snap, making it a "special attack".  I would also suggest that scimitars avoid the Sword Breaker effect, as YT was definitely once a Humakti, and can still obviously use one.

Honestly I don't think illumination can stop an illuminated deity acting as their own spirit of retribution, but a "bent" sword might.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Darius West

[metcalph]

I think it's most likely that as part of his initiation ceremony, the Yanafali will have to do a heroquest in which he fights his former master.  With his victory, he has transformed and is not affected by Humakt's Sword Curse.  

Edited July 13, 2022 by metcalph

[Nick Brooke]

In my cult writeup in Tales #17, only Yanafali who have been resurrected suffer the attentions of Swordbreaker. YGWV.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this interpretation, nobody of any significance will ever change cults and sides.  Too huge a penalty.  Unless they use the cheat of illumination.

This may be mythically correct, but boring.  And still possibly wrong, since Annstad is on "both sides".

 

Annstad is a Red Goddess initiate (ie a Lunar priest who becomes Illuminated) who then becomes an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous. He's very much not the norm.

[svensson]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this interpretation, nobody of any significance will ever change cults and sides.  Too huge a penalty.  Unless they use the cheat of illumination.

This may be mythically correct, but boring.  And still possibly wrong, since Annstad is on "both sides".

 

And what, exactly, is 'boring' about making becoming a heretic to your faith something to be avoided?

If a player wants to be a Hero, they'd better get ready to suffer a lot more trial and tribulation than mere spirits of reprisal for abandoning a cult as an initiate. Fer crying out loud, it only happens once for an initiate anyway. Unless, of course, you're talking about cults with permanent curses like Issaries and Humakt. If a character is gonna complain about such minor slings and arrows, then they should go back to stick picking or peat digging or wherever the Hells they came from because they definitely aren't packing the gear for Herodom.

Edited July 13, 2022 by svensson

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think it's most likely that as part of his initiation ceremony, the Yanafali will have to do a heroquest in which he fights his former master.  

And has to get resurrected over and over again like YT at Castle Blue?

[MOB]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

Yanafal Tarnils and Humakt are completely separate cults, with entirely different myths and religious practices. Therefore the heretic would be effected by all of the penalties.

IMG Humakti who switch over to Yanafarl Tarnils get to keep all their gifts (as long as they don't break their geases) and can continue to replenish their rune points at Humakti temples. And I'm just going to take off my tinfoil helmet to note that Humakti can replenish their rune points in YT temples too, though they do tend to get a bit self-conscious during the liturgy, what with all the tambourines, guitars, and group hugs. YGMV.

[Joerg]

Rather than switching, is it possible to dual cult Yanafal and Humakt? Asking for a munchkin friend...

[svensson]

46 minutes ago, MOB said:

IMG Humakti who switch over to Yanafarl Tarnils get to keep all their gifts (as long as they don't break their geases) and can continue to replenish their rune points at Humakti temples. And I'm just going to take off my tinfoil helmet to note that Humakti can replenish their rune points in YT temples too, though they do tend to get a bit self-conscious during the liturgy, what with all the tambourines, guitars, and group hugs. YGMV.

Well, as you say MOB, YGMV.

IMG, YT and Humakt are completely separate organizations, just as Humakt and Zorak Zoran are separate, just Humakt and Babeester Gor is separate, just as Humakt and any other Death or Truth rune cult is separate.

The Lunar Way attempts to replace EVERY non-Lunar deity with a Red Moon counterpart, not 'co-exist'... replace. In their world view all shall be subsumed by the Light of Sedenya or it will be conquered. The Scarlet Harlot would replace Aldrya or Kyger Litor if she could and she's got whole schools of mages doing God Learner type investigations trying to figure out how.

With that in mind, no, I don't see YT and Humakt as being interchangeable.

As to @Joerg's question, certainly, there's nothing preventing a YT from initiating into Humakt. For double the time, double the tithe, double the sacrifices, etc. They receive a new gift and appropriate geasa as well.

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, svensson said:

IMG, YT and Humakt are completely separate organizations, just as Humakt and Zorak Zoran are separate, just Humakt and Babeester Gor is separate, just as Humakt and any other Death or Truth rune cult is separate.

So, temples to Orjethulut and Hanjethulut (corresponding to Humakt and ZZ, although I forget which is which) would do nothing to Humakti, Yanafali or ZZorani visiting Fonrit in your Glorantha?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Rather than switching, is it possible to dual cult Yanafal and Humakt? Asking for a munchkin friend...

Everything's allowed and nothing is forbidden if you're Illuminated. Illumination is mandatory for any true munchkin .

53 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So, temples to Orjethulut and Hanjethulut (corresponding to Humakt and ZZ, although I forget which is which) would do nothing to Humakti, Yanafali or ZZorani visiting Fonrit in your Glorantha?

Personally I do run it per cult and not per theoretical transcendent deity (there may well be grey areas here), so I would rule it that way. I believe canon is that it works, though.

(I would not allow someone to regain their YHWH Rune Points in temples to El or Enlil, in a mosque, or in a Mormon temple.)

Edited July 13, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

I agree with you @svenssonthat leaving a cult should bring some issues. I fully agree too that a hero must suffer and suffer and suffer. Because no pain, no gain. And sometimes… pain but no gain

however we may find some couple of deities where the retribution is avoided

 because the deities are associated (big example ernalda - xxx gor)

Because there is some peaceful relationship between the gods (I have in mind Issaries and his daughter Etyries)

 

or because the second god was able to emancipate the first one. That is, for me, the humakt to Yanafal change

the YT cult should have some secret that helps candidate to not suffer humakt revenge. That could be in rule game defined as:

gift: no humakt retribution

geas: use only curved weapon

 

However, like illumination, this kind of secret help the initiate « against » the god. But worshippers are not god, they are not impacted by your illumination or any divine protection (of course you may find some forgive-me-my-old-friends abilities…)

so you may meet your ex comrades and have to manage their frustrations (I don’t say that all humakti will be hostile, just the gods are not the worshippers)

Edited July 13, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Nick Brooke]

Guys, apart from a few abstruse points of dogma (e.g. the whole resurrection thing), a Yanafali can be a good Humakti. You’re making mountains out of molehills.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Guys, apart from a few abstruse points of dogma (e.g. the whole resurrection thing), a Yanafali can be a good Humakti. You’re making mountains out of molehills.

Oh, I never said that a YT couldn't be a good Humakti or vice versa.

I just think they're separate deities and therefore separate cults, that's all.

And as @MOB and @Nick Brooke have said, YGMV. Weez Iz Allz Uz 🤣

[OK, I'm gonna have to get a tee-shirt that says 'Weez Iz Allz Uz' and wear it to a con]

Edited July 13, 2022 by svensson

[Godlearner]

Thank you for the discussion. It is all very useful. In this particular case the PC in quesiton is Illuminated and has been reincarnated (as an elf no less, but thats another story). So, I think I will play it as following. No sword breaking curse, He keeps his gifts and geases (although he may choose to ignore them). He has access to his Humakti Rune Pool, but can not add to it. His Worship YT will start at base. His Cult Lore YT is at 1/2 his Cult Lore Humakt. He will need to start his YF Rune Pool from scratch.  

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

By this interpretation, nobody of any significance will ever change cults and sides.  Too huge a penalty.

Huh, we're not all munchkins you know!

[MOB]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the YT cult should have some secret that helps candidate to not suffer humakt revenge. That could be in rule game defined as:

gift: no humakt retribution

geas: use only curved weapon

This is worthy of @scott-martin's  Your Dumbest Theory thread (and I mean that as a compliment).

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

gift: no humakt retribution

geas: use only curved weapon

That is good. YT is rarely classed among the great magicians of the Mothers but working your way out from under the inflexible HMKT code required better than the average twisty mentality.

This would naturally feed into entirely different fencing styles for ritual duels and everyday work. Wherever HMKT pedagogy evolved to prefer straight stabs and fixed directional parries, YT throws all that away for something that avoids straight lines whenever possible in order to better evade the grim god who only sees across hard corners. To some it looks undisciplined or inefficient but the liberation from geas makes up for it.

And of course there are cosmological ramifications. "The angles!" he heard Black say. "They [the Hounds of Tindalos] will most likely come in at the corners of the hall! Use not the points of your weapons, for these will be powerless! Strike with the curve of your blade and use a curving cut."
 

[Joerg]

12 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Wherever HMKT pedagogy evolved to prefer straight stabs and fixed directional parries,

Katrin's most recent image of Humakt shows a slashing blade with blunted point.