Pole star in Sartar

[Ironwall]

So the sartarites know The god of the pole star as rigsdal, and Kallyr starbrow heroquested to rigsdal and devoloped a connection to him, but other than that I don't know much about Rigsdal. Ive seen the cult breakdowns of sartar and he doesn't even appear is he even worshipped in sartar at all, is he reached as a subcult of another diety? Did kallyr worship rigdal?  Does he play a role in the mythology of the heortling people's beyond receiving a mention?

Edited July 23, 2022 by Ironwall

[David Scott]

Rigsdal is Polaris worshipped as a spirit cult by the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass, giving a single rune spell, Captain Souls (RBM 23). So a very small following, appearing in the Other category for cults. As a spirit cult can be worshipped by anyone with a 50% rune affinity of Fire or Stasis. So Yelmalio worshippers or Orlanth worshippers with no emphasis on movement for example (Orlanth Thunderous). 

You can find Rigsdal's mythology (including Rigsdal and the Too-Face-Horde) in Heortling Mythology (page 159)

Note that the Hero Wars publications of 20 or so years ago had him overrepresented and overdeveloped.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Rigsdal is Polaris worshipped as a spirit cult by the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass, giving a single rune spell, Captain Souls (RBM 23). So a very small following, appearing in the Other category for cults. As a spirit cult can be worshipped by anyone with a 50% rune affinity of Fire or Stasis. So Yelmalio worshippers or Orlanth worshippers with no emphasis on movement for example (Orlanth Thunderous). 

You can find Rigsdal's mythology (including Rigsdal and the Too-Face-Horde) in Heortling Mythology (page 159)

Note that the Hero Wars publications of 20 or so years ago had him overrepresented and overdeveloped.

Polestar is a very minor cult in Sartar - I am not sure it even has a cult outside of that around Kallyr Starbrow.

[David Scott]

45 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Polestar is a very minor cult in Sartar - I am not sure it even has a cult outside of that around Kallyr Starbrow.

Well that's gone then 🙂 I wonder if Kallyr's misfortunes blows back onto any Rigsdal interest (what did that star on her head do for her anyway?). There's still room for the odd shaman to have a spirit cult though.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Well that's gone then 🙂 I wonder if Kallyr's misfortunes blows back onto any Rigsdal interest (what did that star on her head do for her anyway?). There's still room for the odd shaman to have a spirit cult though.

Sure. Just saying it is not a significant cult either mythologically or in terms of importance in Sartar. But spirit cults are a plenty.

 

[Ironwall]

Where would a spirit cult of rigsdal in sartar most likely be? the kheldon? considering kallyr connections would seem a reasonable place. would vaanatar have a place for the polestar? 

[davecake]

I agree that it’s a minor cult. I think it’s likely that, given his role in Orlanthi mythology is that of the night watchmen, rather than as a war leader or captain of stars, that the spell granted by spirit cults among the Orlanthi is Star Sight (also in the RBoM rather than Captain Souls. 
It also seems likely that Rigsdal is sometimes worshipped as a very minor associated god or Orlanth rather than a spirit cult - by which I mean only that there is a minor shrine within a larger temple, rather than the intervention of a shaman. 

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

Rigsdal is Polaris worshipped as a spirit cult by the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass, giving a single rune spell, Captain Souls (RBM 23). So a very small following, appearing in the Other category for cults. As a spirit cult can be worshipped by anyone with a 50% rune affinity of Fire or Stasis. So Yelmalio worshippers or Orlanth worshippers with no emphasis on movement for example (Orlanth Thunderous). 

You can find Rigsdal's mythology (including Rigsdal and the Too-Face-Horde) in Heortling Mythology (page 159)

Note that the Hero Wars publications of 20 or so years ago had him overrepresented and overdeveloped.

Gaah!  Rigsdal isn't Polaris, they just have the same spells.  Just like Yelmalio isn't Elmal or Antirius or Tharkantus or Khim etc.  The Polestar is the Commander of the hosts of Yelm, and he doesn't need to work a second job watching Orlanth's stead for extra cash to pay off his chariot loan. 

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Ironwall said:

Where would a spirit cult of rigsdal in sartar most likely be?

I suspect the shrine was in Kallyr's forehead, and the worshippers, her loyal thanes.

10 hours ago, Ironwall said:

the kheldon? considering kallyr connections would seem a reasonable place. would vaanatar have a place for the polestar? 

You mean Sun Dome County?

Quote

It was called Vanntar in the First Age and by some antiquarians even now. GtG 189

If there's a shrine and a shaman...

I'd suggest other than dead Kallyr, there's another shaman somewhere in Sartar who has a shrine to Rigsdal. Stick it somewhere out in the open - clear open skies.

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Gaah!  Rigsdal isn't Polaris, they just have the same spells.  Just like Yelmalio isn't Elmal or Antirius or Tharkantus or Khim etc.  The Polestar is the Commander of the hosts of Yelm, and he doesn't need to work a second job watching Orlanth's stead for extra cash to pay off his chariot loan. 

In the same way that Elmal is Yelmalio in is wilderness years, serving Orlanth, Rigsdal is Polaris helping the People as a Star Captain.

I see no problem with this approach.

Polaris an be both the Commander of the Heavenly Dance, and of Yelm's armies, and also a Star Captain who helped the people of the Storm Tribe.

 

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Gaah!  Rigsdal isn't Polaris, they just have the same spells. 

Polestar is the polemarch of the Star Captains, who aid people in many places.

Polestar is the marshal of Yu-Kargzant's starry herd as they gallop around the heavenly corral.

Polestar is the War God of Yuthuppa, and the god of officers.

Polestar is the loyal warrior and night watchman of Orlanth, known as Rigsdal.

Polestar is the constant guiding star of sailors. [I made this one up.]

[Ironwall]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

You mean Sun Dome County

Isnt the sun dome county in sartar named vaantar?

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, Ironwall said:

Isnt the sun dome county in sartar named vaantar?

Yes, but not many people remember that.

It is easier to say Sartar Sun Dome County, as everyone knows what that means.

I can't even remember the name of the Praxian Sun Domer County, so would never use the name.

It's all to do with making things easier for people, rather than using a name because "Oh look, I'm clever and can remember an obscure name".

[Ironwall]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Yes, but not many people remember that.

It is easier to say Sartar Sun Dome County, as everyone knows what that means.

I can't even remember the name of the Praxian Sun Domer County, so would never use the name.

It's all to do with making things easier for people, rather than using a name because "Oh look, I'm clever and can remember an obscure name".

I used vaantar because its shorter than sartar sun dome but I see your point 

[Jeff]

Polestar is Polestar, and all magic drawn from there comes from the same source. Kallyr Starbrow manages to bring that magic down (and it is no doubt part of her hero cult), and there is no doubt a shaman or two that knows how to do that among the Sartarites. 

But in the Lunar Heartlands, Polestar has a major cult with some 45,000 initiates. They know more about Polestar and his magic than any Sartarite ever will (Kallyr might still enjoy Polestar's favor more than even the High Priest, but that is different). 

 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Ironwall said:

Isnt the sun dome county in sartar named vaantar?

It was named Vanntar a thousand years ago, as the Guide says 

Quote

and by some antiquarians even now. GtG 189

It's called Vanntar in the Guide (First Age), before that WF15 and couple of other sources use Vaantar. But the Guide uses Sun Dome County as its proper name.

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

It's all to do with making things easier for people, rather than using a name because "Oh look, I'm clever and can remember an obscure name".

Simon is clearly not an antiquarian.

[Erol of Backford]

Would the Vanntar Sun Dome not have a shrine to Yelorna (she was Yelmalio's half brother I think) and so possibly even Pole Star would have a small shrine from that tie? In the CC it says Yelorna brought Pole Star and some of his children to aid in the struggle against dread Xentha... Are there any Yelorians in Sartar and would they not also hold Pole Star dear to heart? I guess the question here is when was the last time anyone saw or had a unicorn in Sartar? (Sorry but I love the what if scenarios even they are likely annoying to some?)

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Polestar is the constant guiding star of sailors. [I made this one up.]

Polestar is the Ruling God of Vormain (Me too).

[Darius West]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:01 AM, Jeff said:

Polestar is Polestar

Rigsdal is also Orlanth these days.  If Rigsdal=Polestar then Polestar=Orlanth.  That being the case, why is Polestar attacking the Dara Happans?  Is this some sort of coup where Polestar Orlanth is going to kill Sedenya Yelm?  Crossing one's own T much?

Edited July 26, 2022 by Darius West

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would the Vanntar Sun Dome not have a shrine to Yelorna (she was Yelmalio's half brother I think) and so possibly even Pole Star would have a small shrine from that tie? In the CC it says Yelorna brought Pole Star and some of his children to aid in the struggle against dread Xentha... Are there any Yelorians in Sartar and would they not also hold Pole Star dear to heart? I guess the question here is when was the last time anyone saw or had a unicorn in Sartar? (Sorry but I love the what if scenarios even they are likely annoying to some?)

The great temple of Sun Dome County will have shrines to all recognised associate deities (per page 284). So:

• Aldrya
• Ernalda
• Hyalor Horsebreaker - Unlikely (southern Peloria)
• Sun Hawk - Unlikely (prax and the Wastes)
• Vrimak
• Yelm
• Yelorna

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Rigsdal is also Orlanth these days. 

Much like Lightning Boy or Mastakos, I suppose - a conquered feat, or an allied spell. Not the whole of the deity.

Orlanth did conquer the sky realm after defeating the Emperor, against the opposition of the Stars, overwhelming them with his own followers, some of whom became star captains, like the Vingkotling Star Tribe founders Liorn, Forosil and Garan. I guess after some honorable resistance, Polestar yielded and accepted Orlanth as king of the Heavens and protector - a task he fulfilled admirably against the Sky Terror.

The Dawn Age Seshnegi identified the pole star with Eurmal Firebringer/Lightbringer, keeping guard where the Spike used to pierce the Sky Dome. Is Eurmal Orlanth? What part?

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

If Rigsdal=Polestar then Polestar=Orlanth. 

Rigsdal is at best a subdivision of Orlanth, and in all likelihood separate from Orlanth Lightbringer, the (greater part of) Orlanth who atoned for having applied Death to the Emperor.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

That being the case, why is Polestar attacking the Dara Happans? 

It was Vingkot (another subdivision or son of Orlanth) who attacked the Dara Happans, and his sons after his retirement.

Do you think Vingkot (son of Orlanth and Janerra Alone) = Rigsdal? If so, what are your clues?

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Is this some sort of coup where Polestar Orlanth is going to kill Sedenya Yelm?  Crossing one's own T much?

Sedenya of the White Goddess had already been deposed (possibly sent into the Pit of Strangers) by Yelm at the start of his reign. She re-surfaced as one of the Planetary Sons, almost collided with Umath and descended into the / an Underworld, met him again there and got impregnated, then re-appeared as guardian orb above Mernita (possibly following Orlanth and the other Strange Gods out of that initiatory pit). That orb was crashed into that city, whether by Lukarius' arrow (as per the Dara Happans) or by the Sky Bull (Storm Bull) stomping and shattering her. (Old bully was a bit on a rampage, hurt Hippogriff, too.)

According to Jar-eel, there were four rebel gods slaying the Emperor - Orlanth Terminus, Sedenya, Shargash Tolat, and Artia Mahaqata the Bat. So if you say Sedenya is Yelm, that dismemberment is pretty much an act of Utuma by her, wielding Orlanth.

 

Rigsdal remains on top of Kero Fin (in the Sky) when Orlanth is on the Lightbringers' Quest. He is not present when Orlanth apologizes to Yelm or atones. He doesn't have to. Rigsdal is (a portion of) (Y)Elmal(io) the cold sun disk / the last remaining Light, propped up by the mountain mother. Yelm's bodyguard and warleader in Hell is King Griffon.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Joerg

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Rigsdal is also Orlanth these days.  If Rigsdal=Polestar then Polestar=Orlanth.  That being the case, why is Polestar attacking the Dara Happans?  Is this some sort of coup where Polestar Orlanth is going to kill Sedenya Yelm?  Crossing one's own T much?

 

 

 

 

Um, since when has Rigsdal been Orlanth? Polestar is not even an associated cult of Orlanth.

[David Scott]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Um, since when has Rigsdal been Orlanth? Polestar is not even an associated cult of Orlanth.

to repeat part of my original answer:

On 7/23/2022 at 9:54 AM, David Scott said:

Note that the Hero Wars publications of 20 or so years ago had him overrepresented and overdeveloped.

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

Um, since when has Rigsdal been Orlanth? Polestar is not even an associated cult of Orlanth.

Remember when Orlanth and Ernalda were desecrated and died after the siege of Whitewall and the long winter sets in, then there is a HQ scenario to to get a replacement, and Rigsdal becomes Orlanth's replacement ?  I'm pretty sure that's canon.  Ergo, Polestar becomes Orlanth if Rigsdal=Polestar. And yes, Polestar is not associated with Orlanth, but Rigsdal is. See my problem with saying one deity is the same as another?  It doesn't work and creates Godlearner-style contradictions where enemy deities form associations that make no sense.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Darius West

[radmonger]

If that change had stuck, why do you think that would mean Orlanth _was_ Rigsdal? Apart from the fact they have entirely different runes and natures, if Orlanth is dead, and Rigsdal is Orlanth, then Rigsdal is dead too. So what's the point?

You can imagine an alterative history of Sartar in which Orlanth stayed dead. So many  Orlanth tribal and city temples rededicated themselves to the previously minor deithy of Rigsdal, just as those in Tarsh adopted Barntar a few generations earlier. Much magic would be lost in the process, but over time new shrines would be built, new secrets discovered.

You could describe that process, from a historical persepctiuve, as the Orlanth rune cult becoming the Rigsdal rune cult. But that doesnt mean the Orlanth became Rigadal. It's an acknowledged Gloranthan fact that any diety can have zero, one or many rune cults, in the same way a city can have zero, one or many football teams.

The thing that doesnlt work is to try to found a football team where there is no city.