Pole star in Sartar

[Darius West]

6 minutes ago, radmonger said:

If that change had stuck, why do you think that would mean Orlanth _was_ Rigsdal? Apart from the fact they have entirely different runes and natures, if Orlanth is dead, and Rigsdal is Orlanth, then Rigsdal is dead too. So what's the point?

The idea is that the Orlanth Pantheon needs a replacement for Orlanth who is dead and the present (live) Rigsdal is chosen for the role.  The problem being that the present (live) Rigsdal is supposedly also the god Polestar, who is no friend of Orlanth or his pantheon except when he is Rigsdal, but we are supposed to pay lip service to both being the same deity.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Darius West

[radmonger]

Thereby demonstrating that Rigsdal definitely, without doubt, is _not_ Orlanth.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

the god Polestar, who is no friend of Orlanth or his pantheon except when he is Rigsdal

These are both cultural perceptions. For the Dara Happans, Polaris is a war god and hostile to the Orlanthi because they are; for the Orlanthi, Rigsdal is the faithful guardian in the night who protects them. Both are true, yet contradictory. Polaris and Rigsdal are aspects of the god of the Pole Star.

Edited July 26, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

Remember when Orlanth and Ernalda were desecrated and died after the siege of Whitewall and the long winter sets in, then there is a HQ scenario to to get a replacement, and Rigsdal becomes Orlanth's replacement ?  I'm pretty sure that's canon.  Ergo, Polestar becomes Orlanth if Rigsdal=Polestar. And yes, Polestar is not associated with Orlanth, but Rigsdal is. See my problem with saying one deity is the same as another?  It doesn't work and creates Godlearner-style contradictions where enemy deities form associations that make no sense.

That's not canon.

[Darius West]

21 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That's not canon.

So, when Orlanth dies, you are saying Rigsdal doesn't replace him?  Who does then?  Clearly Orlanth and Ernalda die adter the sack of Whitewall and there is the Long Winter.  Clearly Orlanth is replaced.  Who replaces him?  According to what I read in HQ info, it's Rigsdal, or has that been retconned at some stage?  Which bit isn't canon?

28 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

These are both cultural perceptions. For the Dara Happans, Polaris is a war god and hostile to the Orlanthi because they are; for the Orlanthi, Rigsdal is the faithful guardian in the night who protects them. Both are true, and both are false. Polaris and Rigsdal are aspects of the god of the Pole Star.

I know what you are aiming for.  It is called syncretism.  The problem is that it doesn't work when you have deities from hostile pantheons being syncretized.  You can say "the deity you call Rigsdal is the deity we call Polestar" until you're blue in the face, but they have different names, different mythology, and other problems like the whole "Orlanth Rigsdal is therefore Orlanth Polestar if we accept  the syncretism" issue.  This can't be passed off as a "mystery of the gods" because it implies that Polestar's right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing, which is particularly unacceptable for a god who specializes in choreographed movements.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Darius West

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

So, when Orlanth dies, you are saying Rigsdal doesn't replace him?  Who does then?  Clearly Orlanth and Ernalda die adter the sack of Whitewall and there is the Long Winter.  Clearly Orlanth is replaced.  Who replaces him?  According to what I read in HQ info, it's Rigsdal, or has that been retconned at some stage?  Which bit isn't canon?

I know what you are aiming for.  It is called syncretism.  The problem is that it doesn't work when you have deities from hostile pantheons being syncretized.  You can say "the deity you call Rigsdal is the deity we call Polestar" until you're blue in the face, but they have different names, different mythology, and other problems like the whole "Orlanth Rigsdal is therefore Orlanth Polestar if we accept  the syncretism" issue.

Nobody "replaces Orlanth". Nearly a year goes by, where the Orlanth cult in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country doesn't have its Air magic. Which sucks. But nothing replaces Orlanth.  After the Battle of the Auroch Hills, that magic returns (and about half the player characters in existence breathe a sigh of relief). 

And I have said many many times that the old HW material is not canonical.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I know what you are aiming for.  It is called syncretism. 

Which is very common in mythologies, terrestrial and Gloranthan. Greg Stafford once said, I understand, 'There aren't as many gods in Glorantha as you think there are.'

Now this doesn't matter in Glorantha, playing in Glorantha, unless you are playing a sage or priest who really thinks about the nature of the gods.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The problem is that it doesn't work when you have deities from hostile pantheons being syncretized. 

It works, because the Pantheons are mortal constructions to a great degree. Now the Romans and Germans often didn't get on, but the Romans had no problem identifying however bizarrely Mercury and Woden,  or less oddly Jupiter and Thor... This is still apparent in our days of the week where Roman Dies Mercurii is English Wednesday.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

You can say "the deity you call Rigsdal is the deity we call Polestar" until you're blue in the face, but they have different names, different mythology, and other problems like the whole "Orlanth Rigsdal is therefore Orlanth Polestar if we accept  the syncretism" issue.  This can't be passed off as a "mystery of the gods" because it implies that Polestar's right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing, which is particularly unacceptable for a god who specializes in choreographed movements.

The mythologies are recognised by different cultures as their interpretation of a divine entity. Gods, especially significant ones are big and complex, and mortals trying to grasp their nature are like the six blind men and the elephant. Some, like Yelm and Orlanth are so big everyone gets their innate nature, but others like Pole Star are, I believe, more nuanced.

I don't recognise the "Orlanth Rigsdal" combination from anywhere. It sounds like an attempt by someone to have Kallyr's celestial patron aid her followers during Orlanth's absence in the Underworld but Rigsdal is not Orlanth. 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

So, when Orlanth dies, you are saying Rigsdal doesn't replace him? 

Even if you assume that Rigsdal steps in as the Star Captain protector of a select group surviving the Great Winter, that doesn't change the fact that during the Long Winter, Orlanth is Dead, and Rigsdal is "alive" and available. Thus the dead one cannot be the alive one, Rigsdal does not become Orlanth.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Who does then?  Clearly Orlanth and Ernalda die adter the sack of Whitewall and there is the Long Winter.  Clearly Orlanth is replaced.  Who replaces him? 

The wind stops, and is not replaced. Orlanth is dead. Completely out of Breath. Pining for the Fjords. This deity is a dead deity.

And yes, there being no replacement is what makes the Long Winter so bad.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

According to what I read in HQ info, it's Rigsdal, or has that been retconned at some stage? 

Where in the "Sartar Rising" campaign does it say that Rigsdal replaces Orlanth? While Jeff may not bother to look that up, I am curious whether this has been explicitely stated.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Which bit isn't canon?

Much of the detail. Just as you cannot trust any mention of something in a scenario to be as canonical as the Guide.

 

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I know what you are aiming for.  It is called syncretism.  The problem is that it doesn't work when you have deities from hostile pantheons being syncretized. 

I don't know many cases of hostile pantheons in the myths of our world. Devas vs. Demons is about the closest I see in the split beween Iranian and Indian Aryans, and those are basically two factions of deities in the same myths.

The Romans never had any problem to syncretize hostile deities with the ones they knew and understood. I wonder whether they had a notion of hostile pantheons, or whether their world view had one pantheon - one overarching group of all deities, no matter how benevolent or malicious they might be.

So, what's your proof that syncretizing hostile deities, or deities with "family associations that bring a feud" cannot be syncretized, if not by the folk directly involved in that feud then by third party folk having yet another local approach to that (kind of) deity?

 

Would Egyptians have been able to tell Titans and Olympians apart when explaining them through their own catalogue of deities?

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

You can say "the deity you call Rigsdal is the deity we call Polestar" until you're blue in the face, but they have different names, different mythology, and other problems

Yes. Orlanth Adventurous has a different mythology from Orlanth Rex, too. Destor is a different name from Ohorlanth, too, even if very rarely remembered nowadays.

Deities come with whole phone books of names. Take for instance the list of names and titles for the Messiah in Jesaja 9.5.

And yes, the Evil Emperor and Yelm Brightface and Yu-Kargzant have different mythology in the details. Which is good for a heroquester to know (or even better, to have experienced) and to force the opponent's identity to adopt.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

like the whole "Orlanth Rigsdal is therefore Orlanth Polestar if we accept  the syncretism" issue. 

I still need to see your evidence for that. To me, it looks like you took up the method of syncretism and misapplied it here.

Now misapplied syncretism can be a powerful tool in a sufficiently versed experimental heroquester's toolkit, and twist a myth beyond recognition for exploitation. But there is no evidence that I can see in your argumentation that masks of a deity distributed across hostile divine tribes cannot be re-united.

It should be possible to prove the identity of Shargash and Zorak Zoran for certain applications of myth, like their role vs. Yelmalio Antirius at the Hill of Gold.

 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

This can't be passed off as a "mystery of the gods" because it implies that Polestar's right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing, which is particularly unacceptable for a god who specializes in choreographed movements.

It isn't just a hand, its the entire interface through which the deity behind the mask that is Rigsdal and the mask that is Polaris is expressed.

Polaris is the special case with the choreographed movements. That's the Dara Happan/Solar piece of chrome attached to the deity. I have seen no Dara Happan/Solar myth suggesting that Polaris keeps one eye open even when the other eye is sleeping, that's the special chrome attached to the deity by the storm worshippers.

Pole Star is the chief of the Star Captains, friendly celestial deities that came down from the firmament to lead their people through the Greater Darkness. That is what the Dara Happans and the Theyalans easily agree upon, those are the common aspects of the masks named "Rigsdal" and "Polaris". That he shares his star with the old Malkioni identification for Eurmal Friend of Men doesn't make Eurmal a Star Captain (or at least I hope this isn't the case). But with enough commonalities, mutual recognition of followers of the different masks will happen.

[Manunancy]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

That he shares his star with the old Malkioni identification for Eurmal Friend of Men doesn't make Eurmal a Star Captain (or at least I hope this isn't the case). 

though it's very possible for Eurmal to fake being one - if it gets him access to some food, booze or babe he fancies, he can do a lot of things, including some you'd thinki mpossible for him. Of course, once the plate, bottle or bed is empty he'll be back to his usal self in a heartbeat, but it can work for a while.

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Thus the dead one cannot be the alive one, Rigsdal does not become Orlanth.

Yelmalio did not become Yelm

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, Manunancy said:

though it's very possible for Eurmal to fake being one - if it gets him access to some food, booze or babe he fancies, he can do a lot of things, including some you'd thinki mpossible for him. Of course, once the plate, bottle or bed is empty he'll be back to his usal self in a heartbeat, but it can work for a while.

Though if he is one, presumably it is also easy for him to fake not being one too.😉

[Darius West]

23 hours ago, Jeff said:

Nobody "replaces Orlanth". Nearly a year goes by, where the Orlanth cult in Dragon Pass and the Holy Country doesn't have its Air magic. Which sucks. But nothing replaces Orlanth.  After the Battle of the Auroch Hills, that magic returns (and about half the player characters in existence breathe a sigh of relief). 

And I have said many many times that the old HW material is not canonical.

So... Orlanth stays dead then?  And his Air rune remains with Valind?

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So... Orlanth stays dead then?  And his Air rune remains with Valind?

Darius I feel like you are very deliberately trying to misinterpret my texts. All of this is in RQG (pages 39 to 43) and the Glorantha Sourcebook. Orlanth was defeated when Whitewall fell in 1621 and the Great Winter started. In 1622, Orlanth was "partially" freed at the Battle of Auroch Hills, and his magic returned for cult members, however, his constellation remained in the Underworld. In 1624, Orlanth emerged from the Underworld and new heroquest paths have been revealed by the cult. The revival in 1622 in game rules is enough to cast your spells and get Rune points back at temples. After 1624, cult members are exploring the hero plane with the support of the cult (such as Kallyr's attempted LBQ).

Orlanth ALWAYS remained the main holder of the Air Rune. During the year when it was nearly impossible to cast Orlanth's magic, some Orlanthi in Dragon Pass joined Storm Bull so that they could use Air magic. But not many.

[Jeff]

But Polestar isn't much of an option. His Runes don't overlap with Orlanth's at all. 

[JRE]

And we need to remember that the orlanthi outside of Dragon Pass, who outnumber the Orlanthi there, still had their magic. They knew there was something going on, and I am sure they heroquested to help Orlanth in the troubles, but for them Orlanth was clearly alive and king of the gods and ruler of the middle air. They will see the 1624 return of the Ring, and with extra stars, more as a sign of a victory than a defeat unmade. And probably will believe they were the ones that helped Orlanth put that upstart moon in its place.

Although possibly late for 1624, as the way is not easy, I have Ralios Orlanthi coming to help Sartar after the return of Orlanth's Ring. Weird magics and strange heroics. More grist for Argrath's mill. 

[Jeff]

But going back to the original post, Polestar just Is not that important a cult in Sartar. Its main significance is that Kallyr Starbrow gained her heroic abilities from her contact with Polestar.

[scott-martin]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Polestar just Is not that important a cult in Sartar. Its main significance is that Kallyr Starbrow gained her heroic abilities from her contact with Polestar.

I think this is important to reiterate. While Kallyr might have tried really hard to make Polestar happen in Sartar, it never really took off as a sustainable Orlanth alternative. Instead, her life ended with an exploration of the deep proprietary Orlanth mysteries and not any new revelation to share with her nation. Other approaches might have worked and might still work . . . but as yet, it's all hypothetical, we don't know until people roll the dice.

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Eurmal a Star Captain (or at least I hope this isn't the case)

At least one Trick Star was probably among the expressions gathered in Slontos and now mostly lost to the surface world. Such an entity might have looked a little like "storm" to people who had a different sense of the sky / sun / star taxonomy and so been conflated with Worlath and/or the Ring that ultimately converges on the Pole Star on the way up and out . . . but the records were shall we say poorly preserved.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

I think this is important to reiterate. While Kallyr might have tried really hard to make Polestar happen in Sartar, it never really took off as a sustainable Orlanth alternative. Instead, her life ended with an exploration of the deep proprietary Orlanth mysteries and not any new revelation to share with her nation. Other approaches might have worked and might still work . . . but as yet, it's all hypothetical, we don't know until people roll the dice.

Of course, if you want to keep Polaris relevant IYG or expand his presence, there's a straightforward pragmatic mythological reason why he might have been invoked- as the leader of the Star Captains, who become relevant when the bigger deities are absent or uninvolved. If you were inclined to explore ideas about creative mythology building on some of the older material, this would be an example of venturing back into deeper engagement with mythology by calling upon the boss Star Captain as someone who's the apex of "appearing when the chips are down and giving you what you need to survive" and getting a greater kind of magic than what the ordinary tutelary gods provide. Working your way up from principalities to dominions, as it were, or perhaps even a saraph or cherub. (Seraphim are serpentine, and by squinting I can just make out an exegesis for a Star Dragon building on top of this metaphor...) 

[scott-martin]

11 minutes ago, Eff said:

Star Captains

"From a grammatological perspective, 'star captain' is neither a singular or collective noun but demonstrates instead the characteristics of a verb . . . less a fossil pantheon fragmented solar tempora and more of a primeval technology of the soul that survives in a pulverized state like letters in the alphabet shuffled into the words that live. When the soul in extremis calls out, this is the angelic order that hears and suddenly clasps the petitioner to his heart. The petitioner does not always survive the experience. Every Star Captain, in the final analysis, is terrifying." - Geleron Purple, "Crystal Blood, Alloy Bones"

[davecake]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:47 PM, Darius West said:

Remember when Orlanth and Ernalda were desecrated and died after the siege of Whitewall and the long winter sets in, then there is a HQ scenario to to get a replacement, and Rigsdal becomes Orlanth's replacement ? 

I do not remember that, no? What is this a reference to? 

[davecake]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:59 PM, Jeff said:

But Polestar isn't much of an option. His Runes don't overlap with Orlanth's at all. 

Several of Orlanths associated cults don’t share a rune. Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, Lhankor Mhy, etc. 
IMG there are a few minor places where Rigsdal is acknowledged as an associated cult of Orlanth. Kallyr probably sponsors a shrine somewhere. They probably grant the Star Sight spell. But it’s not really any different to it being a minor spirit cult in its effect on the world - just there are a few Orlanthi who know of Rigsdal as Orlanths night watchmen, and get some minor magic from it. 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Several of Orlanths associated cults don’t share a rune. Chalana Arroy, Ernalda, Lhankor Mhy, etc. 
IMG there are a few minor places where Rigsdal is acknowledged as an associated cult of Orlanth. Kallyr probably sponsors a shrine somewhere. They probably grant the Star Sight spell. But it’s not really any different to it being a minor spirit cult in its effect on the world - just there are a few Orlanthi who know of Rigsdal as Orlanths night watchmen, and get some minor magic from it. 

After the conquest of the Sky Dome, Pole Star became the keeper of the exit of Orlanth's Ring, and possibly the loyal thane holding the stead while the Ring was elsewhere. That Elmal role... why should Yelmalio get all the fun and credit?

Not much of a cult on its own, but possible as a subcult or rune spell of Elmal/Yelmalio or Vinga or some other entity. Why not Inora?

Kallyr did investigate sky lore, followed Orlanth's Ring and got involved with the gatekeeper. Certain parallels with Hon-eel's quest to mother her twins Daylight (or Twilight, the Fifth Wane history uses both) and Nightlight can be made.

 

Do we know Kallyr's year of birth? How much dynastic tutoring could she have experienced? Could she have grown up with a Telmori bodyguard looking out for her?

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

I do not remember that, no? What is this a reference to? 

I was under the impression that after the death of Orlanth and Ernalda at Whitewall that the Air Rune passes to Valind and the Long Winter begins.  To remedy the situation Kallyr goes Hero Questing with her friends and as a result Rigsdal becomes the new Orlanth, taking back the Air Rune, and suddenly the Orlanthi get their magic back again.  This is where all the HQ references to "Orlanth Rigsdal" come from.  Or is this not how things went down?  AFAIKT it used to be.

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

I was under the impression that after the death of Orlanth and Ernalda at Whitewall that the Air Rune passes to Valind

Not sure where you got this from. In Orlanth is Dead, Valind is one of the Storm Gods that looses his powers too. 

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

and the Long Winter begins.

As the Great Darkness has returned.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

To remedy the situation Kallyr goes Hero Questing with her friends and as a result Rigsdal becomes the new Orlanth, taking back the Air Rune, and suddenly the Orlanthi get their magic back again.

Kallyr gets trapped in her heroquest, and the players (in theory free) her at the Battle of Iceland. Those that fought are the New Breathers and have freed their own personal Orlanth.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is where all the HQ references to "Orlanth Rigsdal" come from.  Or is this not how things went down?  AFAIKT it used to be.

I'd suggest re-reading Orlanth is Dead. Rigsdal is mentioned only as one of the few minor deities that still have their magic (and a couple of times that Kallyr is an initiate).

 

[soltakss]

On 7/24/2022 at 5:18 PM, David Scott said:

On 7/24/2022 at 3:05 PM, soltakss said:

It's all to do with making things easier for people, rather than using a name because "Oh look, I'm clever and can remember an obscure name".

Simon is clearly not an antiquarian.

I am an antique but, you are correct, I am not an antiquarian.

On 7/24/2022 at 7:24 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Would the Vanntar Sun Dome not have a shrine to Yelorna (she was Yelmalio's half brother I think) and so possibly even Pole Star would have a small shrine from that tie?

Yes, all the Sun Domes probably have a shrine to Yelorna.

Pole Star would have a Shrine if the Yelornan Temple was a Minor Temple, in my opinion. You could have the Yelornan Shrine in an alcove with little cupboards of her associate deities, I suppose, but where do you stop? Do you have Polaris' Associate Cults in little drawers in the Polaris cupboard?

On 7/24/2022 at 7:24 PM, Erol of Backford said:

In the CC it says Yelorna brought Pole Star and some of his children to aid in the struggle against dread Xentha... 

Yes, Yelorna Starbringer brought the Star Captains to the world. If Polaris was a Star Captain then she could well have brought him. Polaris cultists would probably say that he ordered her to guide Polaris to the people.

On 7/24/2022 at 7:24 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Are there any Yelorians in Sartar and would they not also hold Pole Star dear to heart?

Yes, there are Yelornans in Sartar, especially in Sun County. They don't particularly hold Polaris dear to heart, as he is just another Star Captain to them.

On 7/26/2022 at 5:47 AM, Darius West said:

Remember when Orlanth and Ernalda were desecrated and died after the siege of Whitewall and the long winter sets in, then there is a HQ scenario to to get a replacement, and Rigsdal becomes Orlanth's replacement ?

That was a HeroQuest to get a replacement, because Kallyr Starbrow had a deep and personal connection with Rigsdal/Polestar.

If was not a mythical  connection, but was a temporary fix.

On 7/26/2022 at 5:47 AM, Darius West said:

I'm pretty sure that's canon.

I doubt it.

On 7/26/2022 at 5:47 AM, Darius West said:

Ergo, Polestar becomes Orlanth if Rigsdal=Polestar.

Maybe for one Clan, or one Tribe, on a temporary basis until Orlanth gets better.

On 7/26/2022 at 5:47 AM, Darius West said:

Ergo, Polestar becomes Orlanth if Rigsdal=Polestar. And yes, Polestar is not associated with Orlanth, but Rigsdal is. See my problem with saying one deity is the same as another?  It doesn't work and creates Godlearner-style contradictions where enemy deities form associations that make no sense.

The problem isn't the name of the deities, but the inference from the HeroQuest.

Rigsdal did not become Orlanth, so Polestar did not become Orlanth.

Maybe, at best, Rigsdal sat in Orlanth's seat for a bit, in the same way that Elmal or Doburdan could have.

My guess is that several tribes or clans tried something similar, putting their own cultural hero in Orlanth's place, to fill the void that his loss created.

None of them resulted in an equivalence, of them becoming Orlanth.