descent of Lodril

[sufiazafran]

Hello everyone,

 

I've been thinking about writing a Fronelan myth of the descent of Lodril into earth and some questions come to mind:

If I remember correctly, Lodril ends up as king of the underworld in some sort of dualistic kingdom with Yelm (as above so below, I guess?) ¿Does that mean that there was light in the underworld before Yelm? 

If he first touched earth in Caladraland ¿What is Lodril's mountain? ¿Is it a stronghold he created after his descent?

when he crashed, he touched earth some times before he stopped ¿Did he crash on a straight line or did he bounce from place to place until some goddess stopped him?

¿Did he spend some time on earth before going to the underworld?

 

Any contribution would be nice, thank very much.

[metcalph]

7 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

If I remember correctly, Lodril ends up as king of the underworld in some sort of dualistic kingdom with Yelm (as above so below, I guess?) ¿Does that mean that there was light in the underworld before Yelm? 

Deoends on who you talk to.  Lodril says yes.  Yelm and Dayzatar say no.  Two against one?

7 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

If he first touched earth in Caladraland ¿What is Lodril's mountain? ¿Is it a stronghold he created after his descent?

Lodril touched down in many places.  Everybody says their local volcano was the first.  A much better question to ask them would be why the Vent is so much bigger than their own volcano if Lodril first came down there?

 

7 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

¿Did he spend some time on earth before going to the underworld?

Lodril spend much time on, in and under Earth.  He likes all positions unlike Yelm and Dayzatar.

 

[Joerg]

16 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

Hello everyone,

 

I've been thinking about writing a Fronelan myth of the descent of Lodril into earth and some questions come to mind:

If I remember correctly, Lodril ends up as king of the underworld in some sort of dualistic kingdom with Yelm (as above so below, I guess?)

Yes. Depending on the story, he wrestles Krarsht, or Monster Man (Deshlotralas - his own Underworld aspect), or something else. Where he touches down is Fire Mountain, or the Lava fields.

In Fronela, that's Ladaral's Mountain, later imploded by Waertagi magic and now the Brass Citadel of Sog City.

In Carmania, it was Mount Turos, imploded by Oronin's Waertagi water magic, and now Lake Oronin, with Castle Blue somehow connected to that.

 

16 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

¿Does that mean that there was light in the underworld before Yelm? 

In his descent, Lodril kept Heat but sort of lost Light. Still has the fire, and red glow lava illumination.

 

 

16 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

If he first touched earth in Caladraland ¿What is Lodril's mountain? ¿Is it a stronghold he created after his descent?

In the Holy Country, various places are possible. The Obsidian Palace (now shattered aboveground) under the Shadow Plateau, the Vent, possibly the abyss in the Footprint...

 

16 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

when he crashed, he touched earth some times before he stopped ¿Did he crash on a straight line or did he bounce from place to place until some goddess stopped him?

IMO Lodril didn't so much crash but dive in headlong, injecting (as) Aether's fiery sperm into Gata's loins, which led to the birth of Umath.

 

16 minutes ago, sufiazafran said:

¿Did he spend some time on earth before going to the underworld?

According to Dara Happan myth, Lodril overcame Monster Man and returned to the surface world where he oversaw the peasants of the Dara Happan Empire, siring the Ten Sons and Servants on Oria and Mohenjar the Overseer on Oslira.

Kethaelan myth has him as mate of Asrelia, fathering Ernalda according to Jeff's latest genealogy preview.

Lodril is the father of mountains, poking his head out in many places, like Quivin, Stormwalk, ...

 

[Eff]

7 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

Hello everyone,

 

I've been thinking about writing a Fronelan myth of the descent of Lodril into earth and some questions come to mind:

If I remember correctly, Lodril ends up as king of the underworld in some sort of dualistic kingdom with Yelm (as above so below, I guess?) ¿Does that mean that there was light in the underworld before Yelm? 

These are of course my (varying degrees of creative) interpretation as answers. 

So I'd say that the descent of Lodril divides the Underworld from a place of pure Darkness into a variety of domains just as Lodril's volcanic mountain ranges divide the surface up into separate locales or places. Lodril's kingdom would thus have the light of fire or magma, but there would be places that still had unquenchable Dark close to the surface, and places with "cold light" from other Sky World entities that wandered in (along with an underworld associated with the Earth, and underseas and underrivers that feed into the Styx.) The distinction is that Yelm's light in the underworld is universal and reaches all corners, where Lodril respects boundaries with the Dark (which is to say, Lodril is a peasant's god and negotiates with outsiders as something closer to an equal where Yelm is a noble's god and asserts his authority over them). 

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If he first touched earth in Caladraland ¿What is Lodril's mountain? ¿Is it a stronghold he created after his descent?

Lodril's Mountain is probably part of a network of holy volcanoes that mirrors the Ten Cities and Four Camps of Dara Happa, with this one being the equivalent of the Western Camp. You can probably identify others- I think the Vent in Caladraland is probably an equivalent to Raibanth/Yuthuppa/Yuthubars, as the center of the Lodril kingdom. 

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when he crashed, he touched earth some times before he stopped ¿Did he crash on a straight line or did he bounce from place to place until some goddess stopped him?

Possibly, he broke apart into multiple pieces in his descent and then eventually reunited into a single being. 

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¿Did he spend some time on earth before going to the underworld?

I think Lodril can move freely between the underworld and the surface world, and his ability to do so is a kind of metaphysical center for their cult- why does this untrustworthy uncle of a deity deserve such attention and affection? Not because of his wrath, but because he knows the secrets of life and death, of ascent and descent. His frequent drunken wrestling matches thus become more akin to depictions of Krishna or Kubera- outwardly material, perhaps crass, but Lodril, too, has a third eye, if you know how to look properly. 

[Eff]

This may also be helpful to you- I've had a few thoughts about the myth of the taming of the Oslira and I'll try and put down the ones that directly involve Lodril here: 
 

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This myth is very clearly an example of a catastrophic flood which is ended by a divine hero who faces the monstrous water demon. There are four gods involved- Shargash, Lodril, Yelm, and Murharzarm. Envisioning the Glorious Reascent as a redacted compilation of myths, we can suppose that Plentonius may have taken three separate stories about a great flood and reconfigured them into a work of imperial propaganda where the peasant god and the tutelary god of Alkoth both show themselves to be lesser than the god of the imperial center and so must submit even to the mortal emperors that came after Murharzarm. 

However, we can also look at this as imperial propaganda in another dimension- Shargash, the god of Alkoth, is also a god of rice harvesting. His drumsticks are clearly related to the flails or sticks used to harvest rice, especially the single stick used for wild rice traditionally. But he's not a god associated with public works, as it were. His people are, in this model, the "Weeders and Mudders", who simply pack up and move when conditions get too bad, just like how Shargash is a wandering Southpath planet. Lodril, meanwhile, represents organized peasant agriculture- levees and counterdams and reshaping the earth itself to produce a stable, consistent place of habitation. Both are unable to cope with a flood of this scale, so what is needed is imperial direction (in the Plentonius telling). 

In this sense, we have a somewhat more accurate historical model of so-called "hydraulic despotism"- water management comes first, and then imperial ideologies attempt to claim it and centralize it, making use of catastrophic events as a wedge. This ties into the multiple suns- Yelm "dies" in the same way as when Orlanth kills him, except instead of disintegrating, he retreats towards the Sky until Murharzarm "summons" him again/becomes the new Yelm. What then was the model of antediluvian society? Was it one where the tutelary divinities had greater authority within a less centralized Divine Council? Pelanda with the many local incarnations of Lodril/Turos may be a good model here. 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

He likes all positions unlike Yelm and Dayzatar.

How many senses behind this sentence... Lodril is Lodril for sure

[sufiazafran]

21 hours ago, metcalph said:

Yelm and Dayzatar say no. 

That's nice, I always thought Dayzatar's attitude would be more like "let them do their thing, I won't get tainted by their pettiness." But what do the trolls and the gods of darkness say?

 

21 hours ago, metcalph said:

Lodril touched down in many places.  Everybody says their local volcano was the first.  A much better question to ask them would be why the Vent is so much bigger than their own volcano if Lodril first came down there?

I imagine a god learner posing a question: "How can you know if Lodril's mountain disappeared?"

[sufiazafran]

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

In Fronela, that's Ladaral's Mountain, later imploded by Waertagi magic and now the Brass Citadel of Sog City.

Really? Wow! I've been thinking on how to link Sog city with Lodril for a long time! Is that in an official source? Do you remember which one?

Looking at the god learner maps, I thought Lodril's mountain would be more to the west, and disappeared when the seas covered it.

[JRE]

1 hour ago, sufiazafran said:

I imagine a god learner posing a question: "How can you know if Lodril's mountain disappeared?"

If he lies face up, you get your typical volcano. If he lies face down, you will not see the mountain, but it is there, and you will have a happy Earth. If he is on the side, you will get hills, bumps and occasional spurts...

[Joerg]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:09 AM, sufiazafran said:

Really? Wow! I've been thinking on how to link Sog city with Lodril for a long time! Is that in an official source? Do you remember which one?

My best source is the description in Revealed Mythologies that makes the connection (p.32):

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Ladaral. Earth-heat Energy of Neliomi Region. Ladaral was a selfish god until the sorcerers found his measure and sent the seas crashing upon him. The water canceled his fire, and Ladaral was dampened. The resulting steam was captured and used to build Sog City.

 

The earlier text in Revealed Mythologies makes this look as two separate events. p.13 presents these events out of order, starting with "Save Sog City" followed by "The Floodings" where the (previous) origin of the seas is described as "Zzabur did it." The Neliomi is described as the second flood after the first invasion of the Solkathi that was boiled away.

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Second was Neliom, Our Sea. Zzabur used his Water Magic to convince the sea god Neliom to join in the attack upon Ladaral, a god who had taken refuge in a huge volcano, where his worshippers thrived.

Zzabur's Water Magic would have been the Waertagi magic.

There aren't that many volcanoes in that region to choose from. and while each volcanic peak in a region will be contacted as a different face or son of Lodril, they all draw on the same Deep Fire.

Compare the distance between the Vent and the Obsidian Palace (a very similar feat of construction, wrought by Lodril Veskarthan himself rather than his powers being directed by Brithini sorcery).

 

On 7/26/2022 at 9:09 AM, sufiazafran said:

Looking at the god learner maps, I thought Lodril's mountain would be more to the west, and disappeared when the seas covered it.

You are right, the God Learner maps place Mt. Lodril, or Ladaral's Mountain, somwhere in the middle of the Neliomi Sea. Very likely because the information the map-makers had was "below the Neliomi Sea", and putting it into the middle would make any mistake smaller.

In the maps in Revealed Mythology and the Guide, Mt. Lodril is located on a line through Top of the World and Mt. Nida, somewhere to the west of ;Magnetic Mountain (Curustus on Jrustela).

 But there is of course also Aurelion's Breakwater on the northern shore of Jrustela, and a referal to Lodril's New Mountains in the Godtime maps of the Sourcebook p.93 or 99 (there no longer New mountains, and shown to be north and somewhat west of Mostal's Mountain), although pretty far south. The map on p.110 shows the label "Neliomi Sea" roughly where Lodril's Mountains were, and suggests that that was south of the Tanier River. But then the same map shows nothing of Brithos or Zerendel/Danmalastan than some nebulous "The Islands of Dusk" just before the Black Gate (presumably the Gate of Dusk on or behind Luathela).

 

 

There are two invasions of the waters, first the Neliomi intrusion creating what the Malkioni would call "Our Sea", and then the Janube creation by joint Brithini and Waertagi magic. The Waertagi created a riverine branch of their people inhabiting the Janube and the Sweet Sea, and later continued eastwards from the Sweet Sea with the Poral River, which then continued towards Thunder Delta as the Listor (creating the Poralistor as a whole) and branching off at the Oronin River for a repeat performance against Mount Turos, creating the caldera lake Oronin.

 

[soltakss]

On 7/25/2022 at 9:57 AM, sufiazafran said:

If I remember correctly, Lodril ends up as king of the underworld in some sort of dualistic kingdom with Yelm (as above so below, I guess?) ¿Does that mean that there was light in the underworld before Yelm? 

There is a myth that Aether Primolt divided the world amongst his sone, giving the Sky World to Dayzatar, the Surface World to Lodril and the Underworld to Yelm, However, Yelm bitterly complained and so Aether switched them giving Yelm rule over the Surface World and Lodril ruling the Underworld.

Of course, when Yelm was slain, he ruled the Underworld and Lodril burst onto the Surface World, so both received their due.

On 7/25/2022 at 9:57 AM, sufiazafran said:

Does that mean that there was light in the underworld before Yelm? 

There was, but not from that myth.

There is a Myth of Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar and Xiola Umber who found a godling. Zorak Zoran said it was an enemy and uncovered it but was burned by the process. Argan Argar looked away and ignored it. Xiola Umbar blinked and remembered what she saw. So, that was the first light in the Underworld. For me, it also explains how Zorak Zoran controls Fore, through Amanstan, but struggles with it, whereas Argan Argar controls fire, through Suppress Lodril, or rather it explains how they could command Amanstan and Lodril.

 

On 7/25/2022 at 9:57 AM, sufiazafran said:

If he first touched earth in Caladraland ¿What is Lodril's mountain? ¿Is it a stronghold he created after his descent?

He landed in Larnste's Footprint and, I think exploded where the Castle of Black Glass was, at the Shadow Plateau..

When he was released from that prison, he erupted as the Vent.

On 7/25/2022 at 9:57 AM, sufiazafran said:

when he crashed, he touched earth some times before he stopped ¿Did he crash on a straight line or did he bounce from place to place until some goddess stopped him?

He penetrated the earth, as the Sky Spear, filling it with molten lava. Make of that what you will.

He also fought Krarsht, in her tunnels, but she confused and trapped him.

On 7/25/2022 at 9:57 AM, sufiazafran said:

¿Did he spend some time on earth before going to the underworld?

I don't think so, but there is nothing to say that the Sky Spear was his first time on the Surface World.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

31 minutes ago, soltakss said:

There is a Myth of Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar and Xiola Umber who found a godling. Zorak Zoran said it was an enemy and uncovered it but was burned by the process. Argan Argar looked away and ignored it. Xiola Umbar blinked and remembered what she saw. So, that was the first light in the Underworld. For me, it also explains how Zorak Zoran controls Fore, through Amanstan, but struggles with it, whereas Argan Argar controls fire, through Suppress Lodril, or rather it explains how they could command Amanstan and Lodril.

Oh I bellieved it was yelm !

and I didn’t t understand how they were able to see him before his death 

you propose then two other options : 

- yelm before he obtained the surface wor’d

- lodril after the same event

That’s interesting !

[jajagappa]

30 minutes ago, soltakss said:

He landed in Larnste's Footprint

That myth says that a god picked up Lodril's Spear and hurled it down, not that it was Lodril's place of descent.  More likely the place of descent is in the west.

In GRoY, Lodril's city is "Akuturos, which is the City of Dirt, in the far west. It was the home of Lodril."

or p.18 that also suggests a western location: "This overflow, and the chill wind from the north, drove ancient Lodril beneath the ground."

That aligns with the Guide p.681 with Lodril's Mountain in the west: "Lodril’s Mountain This is Fire Mountain, home of the Earth Father who burns from within"

 

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Oh I bellieved it was yelm !

It might equally be Aether before he rises above the Earth.

[soltakss]

13 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Oh I bellieved it was yelm !

It was Aether Primolt, the father of Yelm, Lodril and Dayzatar. Also, of Umath, but that's someone else's story.