DI to resurrect in battle

[Soccercalle]

How do you let your PCs use Divine Intervention in a battle you are losing? My question is if a DI can be used to resurrect AND teleport to safety at the same time. Its of little help if your Orlanthi Wind Lord resurrects himself with DI and find himself alone and without RP surrounded by 5 Yanafal Tarnils Scimitars. Would Orlanth in that case resurrect him but also bring him to a safe position? Or is that another DI?

[Akhôrahil]

I would run it that DI can ”interrupt” a fatal event. So after the GM rolls that crit to the head, you can ask for Orlanth’s winds to sweep you away from danger, in which case that happens before the killing blow, so to speak (this is more mythically satisfying than a resurrection, I would say - that’s not a typical power in his repertoire).

So I would not require two separate DIs.

[AndreJarosch]

IMHO Orlanth (or any other god) is not a Djin or a Fairy that grant wishes, which you have to clearly bring into a sentence. 
If your call for DI is "Let me survive my oppentents deadly blow, and bring my unharmed body to the hilltop half a mile to the south." it is still ONE DI, and not two. 

If you call for for things that are not in the abilities of that god it will not work. If you call for to much in one DI, i would give a penalty to the roll.

[Soccercalle]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would run it that DI can ”interrupt” a fatal event. So after the GM rolls that crit to the head, you can ask for Orlanth’s winds to sweep you away from danger, in which case that happens before the killing blow, so to speak (this is more mythically satisfying than a resurrection, I would say - that’s not a typical power in his repertoire).

So I would not require two separate DIs.

Sounds reasonable.

[French Desperate WindChild]

as other I would not say "resurrect" but "save" and I would allow only one DI

so what would be the DI for me (warning, my gods are not machine, they cannot do a lot of things but they can decide)

 

let me fight my ennemy = you are not hit by the fatal blow, you are still in front of your 5 opponents, maybe because your are so courageous, you are full life / full magic points and, why not, one free rune spell to cast immediatly (from the god who DI of course)

 

let me die in a more honorable / sacred place = you are hit by the fatal blow, but your body disappear with great effect and is now where your ask, but you're dead.

Your god may be touched by your devotion and if your behavior on the field was very satisfying, you may stay on the field, without the fatal blow, with the promise that when you will die, if you die or because you will die... - 5 opponents... - , your god will teleport your dead body in great honor. How proud you are, you've just heard your god

 

let me go back to the temple / behind the line / ... = it depends how your behavior on the field matches with your god's value.

  1) not enough effort during the fight => you are hit but you are now in a safer place. Maybe there is someone able to save you (well if your head is far from the body, maybe not)  Your God likes jokes...

 2) a lot of effort during the fight => you are not hit and you are now in a safer place. Your God likes you...

 3) you are shameful => nothing happens. Your God despises you

 

a coward god will probably choose #2. a fanatic god will choose #2 only if you succeed to kill more opponents than any true hero.

 

of course my gods are maybe too hard, and too aware of the world

 

 

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

How do you let your PCs use Divine Intervention in a battle you are losing? My question is if a DI can be used to resurrect AND teleport to safety at the same time. Its of little help if your Orlanthi Wind Lord resurrects himself with DI and find himself alone and without RP surrounded by 5 Yanafal Tarnils Scimitars. Would Orlanth in that case resurrect him but also bring him to a safe position? Or is that another DI?

If you haven't reread the Divine intervention section again, then it's a good starting point along with the examples on 273.

It's clearly:

Quote

A god can transport a worshiper and their followers out of danger by whisking them away to a temple of the god.

Divine intervention, page 272

A kind GM will let it will happen just before the killing blow.  So spend a permanent RP, then make the appropriate roll and hopefully there's huge wind and every one finds themselves on top of an appropriate orlanth hill temple, etc.

You can also attempt as may DIs as you like, but it costs a permanent RP each time.

Edited July 29, 2022 by David Scott

[Rodney Dangerduck]

21 minutes ago, David Scott said:

You can also attempt as may DIs as you like, but it costs a permanent RP each time.

BTW, our group has changed this so you lose 2-3 rune points.  In our opinion, the current D.I. rules are far too large a change from RQ2 where you lost a D10 POW.  Even our change to "2-3" might get increased. 

How do other RQG groups play Rune Lord D.I.?

[Soccercalle]

26 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you haven't reread the Divine intervention section again, then it's a good starting point along with the examples on 273.

It's clearly:

A kind GM will let it will happen just before the killing blow.  So spend a permanent RP, then make the appropriate roll and hopefully there's huge wind and every one finds themselves on top of an appropriate orlanth hill temple, etc.

You can also attempt as may DIs as you like, but it costs a permanent RP each time.

I have read the rules and know that a DI can rescue a party. But I wanted to hear how people use DI when its cast directly after a killing blow.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

How do you let your PCs use Divine Intervention in a battle you are losing? My question is if a DI can be used to resurrect AND teleport to safety at the same time. Its of little help if your Orlanthi Wind Lord resurrects himself with DI and find himself alone and without RP surrounded by 5 Yanafal Tarnils Scimitars. Would Orlanth in that case resurrect him but also bring him to a safe position? Or is that another DI?

I play DI very loosely.

"Bring me back alive and move me out of danger" is fine.

"Bring me back alive and move me away from these scary Broos" is not fine for a Storm Bull worshipper, similarly "Bring me back alive and move me away from these scary Zombies" is not fine for a Humakti.

"Bring me back alive and heal my friends" might be fine.

As a general rule of thumb, using the number of Rune Points spent in the DI is reasonable. So, if you lose 5 points, then a Resurrect and 2 Heal Wounds should be free. Any more might need some kind of Passion roll to see how well the deity reacts. However, I would only do that for shopping lists.

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

But I wanted to hear how people use DI when its cast directly after a killing blow.

The DI happens between the killing blow and the death. 

Humakti who receive a killing blow might feel a sword chop off their head but magically passing through the body leaving no wound behind, as they didn;t die so are not being brought back from the dead.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

You can also attempt as may DIs as you like, but it costs a permanent RP each time.

That made me read the RQG Divine Intervention rules again.

Quote

Any Rune points spent in divine intervention are regained normally (at the next holy day etc.)

So, if I am a Rune Lord with POW 17 and 16 Rune Points, I spend 1 Rune Point and roll 1D10, losing a further 6 Rune Points. My Rune Pool goes down to 9, but I get the 6 back at the next worship, brining me to 15 Rune Points. Is that right?

Does the initial 1 Rune Point also get restored at the next Worship?

 

[Soccercalle]

Yes that is another question. Is RP used in DI lost permanently (like a one-use rune spell) or can they be regained like RP used for spells?

[PhilHibbs]

50 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Does the initial 1 Rune Point also get restored at the next Worship?

No. "In appealing for divine intervention, the adventurer must first permanently sacrifice 1 Rune point and then the player must state in a precise way what their adventurer wishes the divine intervention to achieve. "

Permanently means permanently.

[Squaredeal Sten]

If I recall correctly, a successful DI will suck away several more rune points unless you have a very lucky roll.  Isn't the procedure to roll D100 vs RP, and to lose the difference? D10 for priests or rune lords?

Well i was almost right; RQiG p.272.

For initiates, D100 roll to get under  POW.  Lose the difference in POW.

For priests, D100  to get under  POW+RP.  Lose  the difference, RP first and the RP are recoverable next holy day.

For Eune Lords, roll D10, lose unspent RP first and then POW.  RP are recoverable on next holy day.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
looked up the rule

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

This is interesting.  In previous editions, I allowed one "wish" per DI (so no "heal me AND teleport me").

But following the example in the current rules, I would allow a generalized "help me" request for DI.  But that puts the player at the GM's mercy (heh, heh).

Thanks,

David.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Seems to me that in case of a generalized "help me"  the GM should give help that fits the God's specialties.  For example Orlanth's help might come with a teleport and / or a big lightning strike.  But Mallia's might leave her adherent dead and a spirit of disease. and give enemies all an attack by disease spirits. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Yes, the DI should fit the deity.  In our campaign, an NPC Storm Khan led an expedition under the Big Rubble into a maze of Krarshtkid tunnels that our party had discovered and briefly scouted.  They ran into serious trouble.  His DI did stuff to help their party, (I presume some heals, Impede Chaos, etc...) and to Tport his Ernaldan wife to safety.  But no way that Storm Bull will "save" you againt chaos.

A song about Khan Orat (based on Lord Franklin) here:

http://gloranthagame.pbworks.com/w/page/143253243/Khan_Orat

 

[svensson]

Intervention must be within the deity's remit or role. Most DI's can do a lot, but they're not infallible or all-powerful.

For example, a Chalana Arroy DI will never harm another living thing [unless it's Chaos -- but even then she doesn't have much in the way of damaging magics] and Humakt will never resurrect anybody, ever, for any reason. OTOH, a Humakt DI-casted Sever Spirit is gonna solve a lot of combat related problems for you.

However, that doesn't stop players from requesting dumb stuff. In the OP's question about the Wind Lord wanting a resurrection in battle vs. 5 YT Scimitar Masters instead of a 'rez' and teleport to safety-- well, don't gripe if you got what you asked for. To roughly paraphrase John Wayne, 'Life is hard. It's harder when you're stupid.'

In a situation like that, if I were the ref I would suggest the kind of things that Orlanth might do for them in a DI -- information any initiate would know-- and then make the player RP his appeal to his deity. The gods may only intervene in the Mundane Plane in limited ways and this makes DI requests a very literal business. The character's request will be judged in the most literal sense possible and acted or not acted upon based on the god's Runes, role, and powers.

Edited August 1, 2022 by svensson

[Shiningbrow]

How do GMs here treat other player/character agency in DIs?

The above example from the book mentions transporting other characters... what if a character doesn't want to be whisked away?

Similarly, what if one has the geas to not accept magical healing?

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

How do GMs here treat other player/character agency in DIs?

I base likely results on the deity and what they PC's effectively call for.  Earth could enfold the PC's in the earth to hide them, heal them, etc. (or have an earth elemental swallow them and move them through the earth).  Fire could erupt around the PC's to burn away foes with holy fire, or if the sun is out bring down a massive Sunspear to achieve the same.  LM could put a Book of Power in their hands from which they could cast a single-use spell.  Chalana Arroy might put everyone around to Sleep and allow the PC's to escape as long as they take a vow to Harm No One.  

[svensson]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I base likely results on the deity and what they PC's effectively call for.  Earth could enfold the PC's in the earth to hide them, heal them, etc. (or have an earth elemental swallow them and move them through the earth).  Fire could erupt around the PC's to burn away foes with holy fire, or if the sun is out bring down a massive Sunspear to achieve the same.  LM could put a Book of Power in their hands from which they could cast a single-use spell.  Chalana Arroy might put everyone around to Sleep and allow the PC's to escape as long as they take a vow to Harm No One.  

But your examples are how the deity chooses to effect the DI and not the character's choices or agency for it.

In my view, the PC's lose some agency when they make a DI request. In my campaigns there is a 1000% chance that any time a deity intervenes it will do three things...

a] generally be of significant help to the PC's based on the specific request the PC makes

b] must be with the deity's remit [their Runes, their role in their pantheon, etc.]

c] will always advance the deity's agenda.

Sometimes, a DI will result in the PCs violating their geasa... but the deity and church will be fairly kind with their atonement requirements.

Sometimes the PCs will get precisely what they ask for, no more and no less.

Sometimes the PCs will get far more, but with complications. For example, the Orlanthi PC is teleported away from the 5 Scimitar Masters of the OP's top post against his will, but will now have 5 highly pissed off Scimitar Masters hunting him and his friends.

What the PC's get for their Divine Intervention request depends completely on what the GM thinks will enhance the story. The point is this: when you place your fate in the hands of the gods, you can expect to have something fairly random happen. Gods don't answer to player characters and their ways are unknowable.

[Darius West]

On 7/30/2022 at 1:41 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I would run it that DI can ”interrupt” a fatal event. So after the GM rolls that crit to the head, you can ask for Orlanth’s winds to sweep you away from danger, in which case that happens before the killing blow, so to speak (this is more mythically satisfying than a resurrection, I would say - that’s not a typical power in his repertoire).

So I would not require two separate DIs.

Best answer imo.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

Sometimes, a DI will result in the PCs violating their geasa... but the deity and church will be fairly kind with their atonement requirements.

I agree with all your answer except this part 🙂

In my opinion, geas is, in some way, what a god never did, will never do. You have gifts and geas to help you to be like your god.

So the god will not put you in a situation where you/the god should have to do what you/the god will never do.

 

that means if the character ask for something impossible for the god, it will not happen. Nothing may happen, or something the god(gm) will decide to help (or try to help) but nothing against the god's pattern, nothing against geas or even oaths (when oaths are dedicated to the god, a pure devotion deed)

 

But what could be "nice" for the story is to break some mundane oaths, some which are not bound with the divinity like "I swear I will enter in this house, whatever it costs" oups there are 5 YT just in the road.... my example is not really good, apologizes)

[JRE]

I have one main limitation in DI, which is you cannot move time back. The other limitations are the deities' power and character. Deities are good at some things and can get some help from associates, but I play that never a key power. So the dead are dead, and unless your deity has ressurrection, they stay dead. Crippled I allow to heal, except for Death rune holders (unless they also have Life, damned Lunars). Unless it has some strong movement powers, or an associate with such, displacements should be to the home temple or the nearest temple, whichever is MGF. That usually will allow ressurrections and other healings relatively, if expensively easy, so no need to twist the DI too much. 

That is also another extra benefit of worshipping someone like Orlanth, who can also send his charioteer to teleport you, and also has access to a healer, knowledge or communication associate. Another reason why Orlanthi outnumbers Humakti 100 to 1. 

[svensson]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree with all your answer except this part 🙂

In my opinion, geas is, in some way, what a god never did, will never do. You have gifts and geas to help you to be like your god.

So the god will not put you in a situation where you/the god should have to do what you/the god will never do.

 

that means if the character ask for something impossible for the god, it will not happen. Nothing may happen, or something the god(gm) will decide to help (or try to help) but nothing against the god's pattern, nothing against geas or even oaths (when oaths are dedicated to the god, a pure devotion deed)

 

But what could be "nice" for the story is to break some mundane oaths, some which are not bound with the divinity like "I swear I will enter in this house, whatever it costs" oups there are 5 YT just in the road.... my example is not really good, apologizes)

OK, with the geasa it would be something like 'never accept magical healing'... OK, who forbids you magical healing? Your deity, the source of the geas. So, if your deity heals you, then it's not nearly as terrible a sin as choosing to break the geas. Breaking geasa is not heresy or apostacism. All the worshiper did was break a rule. After suitable atonement and penance, the worshiper returns to the fellowship of their congregation wiser but not all that worse for wear. This depends on the cult, the magnitude of the offense, and the authority assigning the penance. [See Solanthos Ironpike ordering the killing of ordained clergy of his own faith for lack of celibacy]

But if, say, Humakt were to heal a cultist who had a 'never accept magical healing' geas, then you can bet that the Sword who assigns the penance would make it reasonably light... say, teaching at the temple for no pay for a season or something. If, like Vasana and Party, you're in Snake Pipe Hollow and you ask Orlanth to teleport you and your friends [none of whom worship Orlanth], then Orlanth will comply but this isn't gonna be your last trip to the Hollow... You'll be required to go back one way or the other.

[svensson]

20 minutes ago, JRE said:

I have one main limitation in DI, which is you cannot move time back. The other limitations are the deities' power and character. Deities are good at some things and can get some help from associates, but I play that never a key power. So the dead are dead, and unless your deity has ressurrection, they stay dead. Crippled I allow to heal, except for Death rune holders (unless they also have Life, damned Lunars). Unless it has some strong movement powers, or an associate with such, displacements should be to the home temple or the nearest temple, whichever is MGF. That usually will allow ressurrections and other healings relatively, if expensively easy, so no need to twist the DI too much. 

That is also another extra benefit of worshipping someone like Orlanth, who can also send his charioteer to teleport you, and also has access to a healer, knowledge or communication associate. Another reason why Orlanthi outnumbers Humakti 100 to 1. 

Yes, you're right. That is the one absolute hard and fast rule of Divine Intervention outside of a Heroquest... you may not manipulate Time in any way, shape, or form.

Asking for a DI within a Heroquest is far, far more dicey and that's a subject I'm inclined to avoid altogether until the official rules on Heroquesting come out. Heroquests change and adjust the Great Compromise by their very nature because they send mortals to relive the God Time, when things were far more... 'malleable'... I guess. Time CAN be manipulated within a Heroquest [or at least events before Time began can] and so a DI within those confines is far more serious proposition.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In my opinion, geas is, in some way, what a god never did, will never do. You have gifts and geas to help you to be like your god.

So the god will not put you in a situation where you/the god should have to do what you/the god will never do.

that means if the character ask for something impossible for the god, it will not happen.

Not sure I agree. Tests of faith and tests of character are all over our mythology - Abraham about to sacrifice his son, Jesus being tempted in the desert, etc.

And if you ask your god to do something against its nature - sure, grant it, but it will wreck your progress towards being more like that god, unless you can heroquest to prove that it was in keeping with the god after all somehow.