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So when is the GM guide coming out?


Zelmor

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Briefly dilating: because of the pervasive influence of the World's Favourite Role-Playing Game (TM), some people earnestly believe that every game needs its holy trilogy of Player's HandbookMonster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide to be considered complete.

RuneQuest players know that this is a really bad take: until the Mongoose era, no edition of RuneQuest had ever had anything called a Game Master's Guide, and frankly the less said about the Mongoose era, the better. But the perception is there, and is reinforced by the RQG Core book's (doubtless well-meant) indication that some secondary stuff is "coming soon."

So the slipcase set (comprising: RQG Core, RQG Bestiary, Colymar Campaign Pack) is seen as "incomplete" by folk who literally don't know what they're missing, but are sure it's really important (somehow).

Personal bit: RuneQuest in Glorantha was my favourite setting for a decade before I first went on a heroquest, when the Greydog Clan playtested Jon Quaife's scenario Grey Hare's Riddle Quest before its publication in Tales of the Reaching Moon's HeroQuest Special, back in 1992. Jon didn't have any super-sekret lore or insights or frameworks, he just wrote a cool folklore story set on the Other Side, and we all loved playing it. I've tried to provide a similar experience in my own Black Spear and, arguably, The Duel at Dangerford. If you don't enjoy them because they haven't been shoehorned into some unpublished meta-framework, honestly, that's on you.

And that's why I think it was a mistake to mention a GM's Guide.

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21 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

My takeaway from this is that it was a mistake to mention a hypothetical future GM's Guide in the core rulebook. But that's just me.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
The plaint of "nothing coming out" will still be made AND a marketting opportunity will be missed.

Three of the next generation of my family now (one has started in the last week) GM RQG, using no more than the core book and in one case the addition of the Haraborn saga. They've 3 VERY different Gloranthas, but all run a Glorantha worth playing in. None qualify as experienced GMs.

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43 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

My takeaway from this is that it was a mistake to mention a hypothetical future GM's Guide in the core rulebook. But that's just me.

That was a mistake. And I don't think that all of the content in the coming book is necessary for most GMs. But I think that official rules for heroquesting should have been more of a priority. I really like the heroquesting book in JC by Simon Phipp. I think most of us can make do without the other stuff that will be included in the guide. But if a GM started running a campaign in 2019 (set in 1625) they are probably now around 1630. At that time there is a lot of heroquesting going on if you run an "epic" campaign in Dragon Pass and uses the "King of Sartar" book as a roadmap. 

I ran a short lightbringers quest in my current campaign. It would not have been possible without decades of Glorantha experience, good understanding of the rules for cults and runes, @Jeffs notes on Facebook, the "Sartar - Kingdom of Heroes" book, @soltakssbook and some community help. (Thanks @Ludovic aka Lordabdul). But it is not something that a new GM can do with only the official supplements and the book "King of Sartar". Not even if you are an experienced D&D or CoC gamesmaster.

And "We have waited for 40 years and can wait some more so its perfect" its not a convincing argument for a new GM/customer.

And this is not really a problem for me. I am one of those who has been playing RQ since the mid 80s and own nearly everything published. I am having the time of my life running a campaign based on "Six Seasons" that has now taken my characters to Prax. But most new GMs/customers dont have that knowledge or loyalty to the setting. 

Edited by Soccercalle
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28 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

My takeaway from this is that it was a mistake to mention a hypothetical future GM's Guide in the core rulebook. But that's just me.

LOL. That's for sure. 😁

It does seem like we feel like we need a lot more to get going these days. I ran RQ2 for years with no more than my GW RQ2 rulebook, CoP and the glorious campaign sets as they dropped in the heady days of the early 80s'. We surely weren't used to being swaddled with material - no RPG (even AD&D) provided that back then. These days perhaps we stare longingly at other richly supported games and feel like that is the baseline, minimum viable proposition without which an RPG is non-viable.  I don't agree, but if that's the view of the 'market', then there's useful information in that.

I do have some sympathy with the OP - without being a fan, it is indeed hard to know whether RQG is a game worth investing in insofar as having a view of how it will be supported. You really have to scour forums and interviews for info. Why should anyone who is not "one of us" have to do that? We simply increase the chance that they might just pass on by, which seems such a shame. I love this game and want others to share the joy of doling out criticals to the left legs of my foes.

I haven't checked but I'd wager the Chaosium in the late 70s/early 80's was a somewhat better than the Chaosium now of giving its customers some sense of what's going on and what to expect (MoLAD and Heroquest excepted...).

 

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13 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
The plaint of "nothing coming out" will still be made AND a marketting opportunity will be missed.

Well, I'd stick an advert for the Jonstown Compendium in the back of a future RuneQuest hardback, if it was up to me. That way people won't be unaware of more than a hundred scenarios and sourcebooks for RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha. But the Powers that Be think otherwise, and who am I to doubt their wisdom?

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1 minute ago, RandomNumber said:

I haven't checked but I'd wager the Chaosium in the late 70s/early 80's was a somewhat better than the Chaosium now of giving its customers some sense of what's going on and what to expect (MoLAD and Heroquest excepted...).

You're insane. Chaosium in the late 70s/early 80s was notorious for announcing vapourware and never following through. Rick Meints devotes space to "What Never Was" throughout his Meints Index to Glorantha.

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Where we have fallen down, IMO, is pointing towards stuff that's not available yet, while not doing enough to market:

a) the RuneQuest / Glorantha Classics (pick up the Cult Compendium or the two Cults Books and you have full cult writeups for loads of stuff that's summarised in RQG Core; pick up Borderlands / Pavis / Big Rubble and you can happily adventure in Glorantha for many years), and

b) our frankly brilliant community content. If you haven't read Six Seasons, or Sandheart, you are really missing out. Those authors get Glorantha, and they're showing you how you can weave heroquests and mythology into stories of everyday Bronze Age life.

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22 hours ago, soltakss said:

We have been waiting for over 40 years for the HeroQuesting rules, so I, personally, can wait a little longer.

You keep saying this like it's true.

It's not.

It's demonstrably, verifiably false.

Mongoose had Heroquesting rules in publication within about a year of getting the rights... A full chapter, in fact (granted, 25 pages, most of which are example HQs for the various cults...).

Now, I don't recognise any of the names in MRQ1's authors etc list (other than Greg, of course), and so I have no idea how much time they had actually devoted to doing HQs previously in a RQ or similar setting and system, but it seems to me that for a group such as these to publish workable HQ rules within a year (or so...) of getting the license should mean that someone who was an active RQ player should be able to do the same - after 40-odd years of playing.

I do understand some tweaks needing to be made, but I'd have thought that after all of these years, we're not back to trying to re-invent a wheel...

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7 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

You're insane. Chaosium in the late 70s/early 80s was notorious for announcing vapourware and never following through. Rick Meints devotes space to "What Never Was" throughout his Meints Index to Glorantha.

<Takes off rose-tinted spectacles and goes to check the Winter 1982 Chaosium Catalogue>

Good lord, you're right. It's not just an absence of information, it is full of fake news and misdirection.  Where is my boxed set of maps and Dorastor supplement!

 

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Some of you seem to be missing the point. I'm talking about coherency within a product line, with timely releases and something meaningful for new customers to keep coming back for. Fuel on the fire if you will.

What you are suggesting, reaching back to older published books and working with those, brings up the question: why even invest in the new RQ:G product line then? It's an obvious poor choice compared to the older RQ editions, which by the way are now out of print just like the HQ stuff. But that is not how it is sold. It is sold as the definitive edition to go for if you want Glorantha. And that is simply not true. 

And as for taking pride in waiting 40 years for the heroquest guidelines and rules that are yet undelivered, well, that's a very lame claim to fame in my book. I hope you get it before you croak, but that is not how I want to go about my hobby.

Anyway, my slipcase box set is now up for sale in the Netherlands. Hit me up in private if you want it.

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Quote

It's an obvious poor choice compared to the older RQ editions, which by the way are now out of print just like the HQ stuff. 

All of the RuneQuest Classics are available in print on demand from Chaosium's web store. I'm sorry they weren't what you were looking for, and hope you find your Forever Game soon.

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14 minutes ago, Zelmor said:

Some of you seem to be missing the point. I'm talking about coherency within a product line, with timely releases and something meaningful for new customers to keep coming back for. Fuel on the fire if you will.

What you are suggesting, reaching back to older published books and working with those, brings up the question: why even invest in the new RQ:G product line then? It's an obvious poor choice compared to the older RQ editions, which by the way are now out of print just like the HQ stuff. But that is not how it is sold. It is sold as the definitive edition to go for if you want Glorantha. And that is simply not true. 

And as for taking pride in waiting 40 years for the heroquest guidelines and rules that are yet undelivered, well, that's a very lame claim to fame in my book. I hope you get it before you croak, but that is not how I want to go about my hobby.

Anyway, my slipcase box set is now up for sale in the Netherlands. Hit me up in private if you want it.

Hey, lucky you're not waiting for an FPS type video game to play the setting in.

It was announced a couple of years back, and there has literally been zero further (useful) information about it since... let alone an actual date. Even the makers of the game aren't willing to acknowledge that they have the rights to it (again, let alone any updates as to its development). This usually means it's dead in the water....

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Yea, mention of a GM's guide was probably a mistake. Will that be the next "heroquesting rules coming soon"? I hope not.

RQG may have a slow official release schedule, but RQG as something to be excited about has a pretty good release schedule when you include the JC. Sure, it's fan stuff not official, but still it creates a pipeline, and as mentioned, much of it is put out by folks who have been gaming for years in Glorantha.

RuneQuest is a small niche product. It will never have an official release schedule that matches the more popular games (and yes, CoC is a more popular game even if it's a child of RuneQuest...).

If the question is how do I run a game in Glorantha, if you're here asking that question, you're in the right place and you will get direct answers or direction to helpful products that ARE available. If you're not here and found RQG on the shelf, you're in no worse position that someone picking up any other niche RPG, huge swaths of which NEVER get anything beyond a core book, even in today's RPG climate.

If the question is why has the GM's guide been delayed? I'm guessing part of it is not actually being sure what content should go into it combined with discovering content really needed to be it's own product (like the gods - or was that always going to be a separate product?). Part of it is the desire that the GM's guide reach some level of perfection, having just the right information.

And there's a long history of fan work on heroquesting... Steve Marsh (the same Steve Marsh who did lots of work on D&D) was working on heroquesting c. 1980. And maybe heroquesting has been made to be more important these days than back in 1980, but in my 44 years of running RQ I have never felt deprived for not having the heroquesting rules.

Part of the problem is that Glorantha has a reputation of being deep and unapproachable because of the depth of fan delving into the setting. But the truth is it's not unapproachable. RQ2 + Cults of Prax makes for a plenty playable an approachable game. RQG core book and/or the starter set makes for a plenty approachable game. Grab some stuff that is currently available and start playing. If you run into something that stumps you, look to see if there's a product that helps, reach out to the community, or just make it up. If your Glorantha is different than Greg Stafford's more power to you. I think some lump Glorantha in with Tekumel and Talislanta, but Glorantha is WAY more approachable than those settings because it has way more parallels with Earth (or at least what folks in Europe and the US are familiar with - someone from Asia might have an easier time connecting with Tekumel than me, and maybe thus easier than connecting with Glorantha). Folks have been picking one Earth culture or another for 44 years to inform this or that culture of Glorantha, we may all be choosing different source cultures, but we make it work.

But to come here and dismiss all the help that has been offered, to DEMAND the GM's guide, that's going too far.

Maybe I need to hold fast in my recommendation of RQ2 (or RQ1 🙂 ) + Cults of Prax + an adventure or two. At least RQ2 doesn't promise a GM's guide...
 

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3 minutes ago, ffilz said:

Yea, mention of a GM's guide was probably a mistake. Will that be the next "heroquesting rules coming soon"? I hope not.

RQG may have a slow official release schedule, but RQG as something to be excited about has a pretty good release schedule when you include the JC. Sure, it's fan stuff not official, but still it creates a pipeline, and as mentioned, much of it is put out by folks who have been gaming for years in Glorantha.

RuneQuest is a small niche product. It will never have an official release schedule that matches the more popular games (and yes, CoC is a more popular game even if it's a child of RuneQuest...).

If the question is how do I run a game in Glorantha, if you're here asking that question, you're in the right place and you will get direct answers or direction to helpful products that ARE available. If you're not here and found RQG on the shelf, you're in no worse position that someone picking up any other niche RPG, huge swaths of which NEVER get anything beyond a core book, even in today's RPG climate.

If the question is why has the GM's guide been delayed? I'm guessing part of it is not actually being sure what content should go into it combined with discovering content really needed to be it's own product (like the gods - or was that always going to be a separate product?). Part of it is the desire that the GM's guide reach some level of perfection, having just the right information.

And there's a long history of fan work on heroquesting... Steve Marsh (the same Steve Marsh who did lots of work on D&D) was working on heroquesting c. 1980. And maybe heroquesting has been made to be more important these days than back in 1980, but in my 44 years of running RQ I have never felt deprived for not having the heroquesting rules.

Part of the problem is that Glorantha has a reputation of being deep and unapproachable because of the depth of fan delving into the setting. But the truth is it's not unapproachable. RQ2 + Cults of Prax makes for a plenty playable an approachable game. RQG core book and/or the starter set makes for a plenty approachable game. Grab some stuff that is currently available and start playing. If you run into something that stumps you, look to see if there's a product that helps, reach out to the community, or just make it up. If your Glorantha is different than Greg Stafford's more power to you. I think some lump Glorantha in with Tekumel and Talislanta, but Glorantha is WAY more approachable than those settings because it has way more parallels with Earth (or at least what folks in Europe and the US are familiar with - someone from Asia might have an easier time connecting with Tekumel than me, and maybe thus easier than connecting with Glorantha). Folks have been picking one Earth culture or another for 44 years to inform this or that culture of Glorantha, we may all be choosing different source cultures, but we make it work.

But to come here and dismiss all the help that has been offered, to DEMAND the GM's guide, that's going too far.

Maybe I need to hold fast in my recommendation of RQ2 (or RQ1 🙂 ) + Cults of Prax + an adventure or two. At least RQ2 doesn't promise a GM's guide...
 

RQG has been an incomplete game since day 1. Heroquesting IS part of the setting and lifes of the player's characters. If someone tells a new player that the best option is to buy material 30 or 40 years old... Well something is very wrong in Chaosium. Nobody is worried about battle or sailing rules but Heroquesting... It's essential. That's the reason my group is giving a try to The One Ring 2e. I know that a lot of new players think the same. Finish your game Chaosium, and then give us a call. 

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1 hour ago, Jose said:

RQG has been an incomplete game since day 1. Heroquesting IS part of the setting and lifes of the player's characters. If someone tells a new player that the best option is to buy material 30 or 40 years old... Well something is very wrong in Chaosium. Nobody is worried about battle or sailing rules but Heroquesting... It's essential. That's the reason my group is giving a try to The One Ring 2e. I know that a lot of new players think the same. Finish your game Chaosium, and then give us a call. 

If you can't enjoy role playing in Glorantha because some hypothetical rules that were first hinted at 44 years ago an NEVER officially published, I guess find something else to play because RuneQuest has never been a complete game in its 44 year history. Numerous folks have invented their own rules for heroquesting because they felt it important. My campaigns have never featured heroquesting. Or maybe they have...

One could argue that Scenario Pack 2 Apple Lane contains a heroquest in the Rainbow Mounds. That scenario certainly offers some insight into mythic Glorantha.

One could point out that a Gloranthan inhabitant is far more likely to be involved in a war than a heroquest, unless you subscribe to the thought that even ordinary worship is at some level a heroquest, though if so, I would argue one that doesn't need game mechanics beyond what already exists for holy days and rune spell/pool recovery - BUT if you want ordinary worship to be a heroquest that has some mechanical impact on the game, write up some rules and go for it.

Is the delay for heroquest rules really any different that the delay from publishing Basic D&D and publishing the Imortals boxed set (well other than the 44+ year wait... 🙂 )?

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10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

My takeaway from this is that it was a mistake to mention a hypothetical future GM's Guide in the core rulebook. But that's just me.

Arguably, products that are "coming soon" -- but aren't -- are a time-honored Gloranthan tradition...
We'd hardly recognize the Chaosium if they abandoned that habit!
"They are, after all, not the Orderium."

 
<gets crowbar, pries tongue out of cheek>

You're right of course, Nick!

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9 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

RuneQuest players know that this is a really bad take: until the Mongoose era, no edition of RuneQuest had ever had anything called a Game Master's Guide, and frankly the less said about the Mongoose era, the better. But the perception is there, and is reinforced by the RQG Core book's (doubtless well-meant) indication that some secondary stuff is "coming soon."

Not quite correct on the timeline; RQ 3 had the Gamemaster's Book right there in the box with the Player's Book, and of course the Magic, Creatures, and Glorantha books.

RQ 6 had a Games Mastery chapter (Chapter 16: p.413). It would be more accurate to say that RQ:G is the first version of RuneQuest since RQ2 to NOT have some sort of central location for basic gamemaster guidance. Possibly an artifact from the decision to use the second edition as the basis for the new game (possibly starting out with 2's Table of Contents as the basic outline??).

While much of this type of information is scattered throughout RQ:G, having it all in a central location for the new GM cannot be understated.

SDLeary

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9 hours ago, Zelmor said:

...

What you are suggesting, reaching back to older published books and working with those, brings up the question: why even invest in the new RQ:G product line then? It's an obvious poor choice compared to the older RQ editions, which by the way are now out of print just like the HQ stuff. But that is not how it is sold. It is sold as the definitive edition to go for if you want Glorantha. And that is simply not true.

...

 

It was part of the design intent of the new edition, that the RQ2/RQ3 material be usable with minimal adaptation in the new edition.

The new edition is nevertheless better, with more & better art to capture the "vibe," MUCH more of the game-world in the core rulebook, the addition of Runes as core elements of the game (which no edition managed before (except for MRQ1, which did something they called "Runes," but it alienated many of the existing fans)).

It is those features in particular:

  • the included game-world material (homelands, family history, Cults, & more!)
  • the integration of Runes as fundamental to the characters

that make RQG "the definitive edition to go for if you want Glorantha."  It is incredibly much-more embedded in the game-world than any prior edition.

But you're flat-out wrong that all the older material is unavailable.  All of the RQ2-era Glorantha content was returned to print (via Kickstarter) before RQG was printed (now sold as the "RQ Classics" line at Chaosium).  It was -- in part -- the very success of that KS that led to RQG using RQ2 as the chassis for new development, and the easy choice to lean-in on the readily-available older content while the new edition got going.

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10 hours ago, Zelmor said:

... 

And as for taking pride in waiting 40 years for the heroquest guidelines and rules that are yet undelivered, well, that's a very lame claim to fame in my book. I hope you get it before you croak, but that is not how I want to go about my hobby.

Yeah... this is nothing to brag about!

"Why, in my day ... " <insert semi-amusing improbability or impossibility of your choice>

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4 hours ago, ffilz said:

One could point out that a Gloranthan inhabitant is far more likely to be involved in a war than a heroquest, unless you subscribe to the thought that even ordinary worship is at some level a heroquest, though if so, I would argue one that doesn't need game mechanics beyond what already exists for holy days and rune spell/pool recovery

Yes I would argue that, and I think many Gloranthan inhabitants would perform dozens of heroquests whilst participating in maybe one battle if they're unlucky. We have the rules for the reward of these common heroquests, but no rules on how they work. I've been playing and running in Glorantha for 40 years and it is a glaring omission. I started my campaign on the assumption that the battle and heroquesting rules would be out by now, and the COVID hiatus has saved us from that omission derailing it so far, but I'm at the point of winding it down until the rules do come out.

4 hours ago, ffilz said:

if you want ordinary worship to be a heroquest that has some mechanical impact on the game, write up some rules and go for it.

"Write your own rules" is not helpful. For anything else, where we all have some level of real world experience to call on, it's fine. For battles, less so. Heroquesting, not at all. Whilst I do feel that @Zelmor is overstating the case a little, maybe even a lot, it is a legitimate one.

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42 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yes I would argue that, and I think many Gloranthan inhabitants would perform dozens of heroquests whilst participating in maybe one battle if they're unlucky. We have the rules for the reward of these common heroquests, but no rules on how they work. I've been playing and running in Glorantha for 40 years and it is a glaring omission. I started my campaign on the assumption that the battle and heroquesting rules would be out by now, and the COVID hiatus has saved us from that omission derailing it so far, but I'm at the point of winding it down until the rules do come out.

"Write your own rules" is not helpful. For anything else, where we all have some level of real world experience to call on, it's fine. For battles, less so. Heroquesting, not at all. Whilst I do feel that @Zelmor is overstating the case a little, maybe even a lot, it is a legitimate one.

Well, there is this.... https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/326489/Secrets-of-HeroQuesting

The heroquesting rules come off as the biggest thing people are itching for. Is there anything else that people are expecting from the GM's guide you can't live without? Do we just need a preview of the heroquesting rules?

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11 minutes ago, ffilz said:

Well, there is this.... https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/326489/Secrets-of-HeroQuesting

The heroquesting rules come off as the biggest thing people are itching for. Is there anything else that people are expecting from the GM's guide you can't live without? Do we just need a preview of the heroquesting rules?

In my case -- they are the least important feature... I would want guidance on creating scenarios... appropriate "treasure" to be picked up, sizing NPC opponent parties to the PC party capabilities, random encounter tables for use if a scenario requires travelling (granted there is a JC document providing a start for this last).

My only attempt at being GM was for Traveller -- and that rapidly got out of my control (the players essentially went Free Trader and were working out trade circuits in the attempt to optimize profits; forget about adventuring -- unless I chose to go Mayday route with space pirates shooting at their junker of a ship).

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9 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

In my case -- they are the least important feature... I would want guidance on creating scenarios... appropriate "treasure" to be picked up, sizing NPC opponent parties to the PC party capabilities, random encounter tables for use if a scenario requires travelling (granted there is a JC document providing a start for this last).

My only attempt at being GM was for Traveller -- and that rapidly got out of my control (the players essentially went Free Trader and were working out trade circuits in the attempt to optimize profits; forget about adventuring -- unless I chose to go Mayday route with space pirates shooting at their junker of a ship).

For adventure writing, look at some published scenarios, official or JC, even look at the Classic RQ scenarios (if you do, the conversion guidelines suggest how to adjust treasure).

For encounter tables, pick up the JC offering, or if you run in Prax, pick up the Classic RQ Borderlands (which gives you a great selection of scenarios also). There are other products with encounter tables.

But OK, these ARE pretty important bits, but they CAN be surmounted if you strongly desire to create your own adventures and would like some guidance.

I wouldn't stress out too much about matching capabilities, just be generous if the PCs want to retreat or make sure someone will post ransom for them.

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20 minutes ago, ffilz said:

But OK, these ARE pretty important bits, but they CAN be surmounted if you strongly desire to create your own adventures and would like some guidance.

Of course they can be surmounted, but there were at least sections in both RQ2 and RQ3 that provided some guidance to do so.  It's a legitimate complaint for someone new to RQ and Glorantha who is trying to figure out how to GM in the world.

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