So when is the GM guide coming out?

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Briefly dilating: because of the pervasive influence of the World's Favourite Role-Playing Game (TM), some people earnestly believe that every game needs its holy trilogy of Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide to be considered complete.

how I disliked this unamed one and this split PH / MM / DM

However,  all my favorite RPG decades ago  (Vampire, L5R, ...) proposed an other template, core book you can start  a campaign, then tribe / clan book including dedicated rules to a specific topic (battle, etc...) when you want to explore a part deeper. That more or less what RQG is following (less because the cult supplement is an important one I haven't something like in my comparison). So for me the issue is elsewhere :

I don't know if it was because I m in France or I was "late" when I start the few games in these other rpgs, but when I started, the supplements existed. I hadn't to wait for a time -and sometimes a long long time with rqg -. I was my own time master, I bought, if i bought, when I wanted to buy. It was availabe.

I think the frustration, maybe a little bit too extreme sometimes, is that, when you start runequest, you are - not yet - unable to buy what you need when you need. And it will always the case for some specific needs, because this world is too large, too rich...

When will you get Fonrit supplement if you need it ? ( I don't, don't change the priorities please 😛 )

Fortunately, for newcomers at least, the rqg core rules focus the attention in a little setting, easier to cover it in a ... reasonable... timelime. So the too large world issue is less important than for some grognards (when I say issue, the issue is to propose official supplements covering all the world, not to be able to meet characters / to visit places)

 

Note that I (I is a generic one,any customer in my opinion) don't care if other doesn't need what I expect, it is my needs.

Don't care if another previous version x years ago is available to cover a little part of my need, I (still generic) is unable to know if yes or no this previous one will be updated, deprecated, etc... Should I pay for something deprecated ?

Only expert (well let's say initiate) or fan, not new customer, not lambda customer, should explore previous version. We can't ask the lay members to sacrifice all their POW to our initiates rituals.

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, ffilz said:

Well, there is this.... https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/326489/Secrets-of-HeroQuesting

That's not the ad-hoc group creative questing system that has been teased. I've got a bunch of fan-written HQ systems, including my own homebrew.

[RandomNumber]

21 hours ago, Jose said:

RQG has been an incomplete game since day 1. Heroquesting IS part of the setting and lifes of the player's characters. If someone tells a new player that the best option is to buy material 30 or 40 years old... Well something is very wrong in Chaosium. Nobody is worried about battle or sailing rules but Heroquesting... It's essential. That's the reason my group is giving a try to The One Ring 2e. I know that a lot of new players think the same. Finish your game Chaosium, and then give us a call. 

I have to disagree. I understand the importance of the heroquesting rules in realising the creative vision of Glorantha. Even so, I couldn't care less about them. My group has enjoyed playing RQ on and off for 40 years (with a long break for marriages, kids and mortgages in the middle) and the need has never arisen.  Should it come up we'll handwave something.

Of course, I'll buy the supplement when it comes out and I hope we'll find it opens up some whole new vista of RPG experience for us. I doubt it will but it will surely be a lovely product, an interesting read and may help me enrich the RQG games I do run.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, RandomNumber said:

 I understand the importance of the heroquesting rules in realising the creative vision of Glorantha.

That right there is the issue! It's not like Chaosium has suggested that HQ is a sideline thing that doesn't really mean much in the environment. In fact, I'd say the exact opposite - that it's something that is an intrinsic and important part of the setting (whether or not players and GMs use it).

Without Heroquesting, would we have even 1/10th of the 'heroes' that are in the books? Even the lesser of those (Kallyr, Leika, etc) had to HQ in order to get to the positions, powers and abilitites they did.

So, yeah, I think not including them earlier was a mis-step.

[Soccercalle]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

That right there is the issue! It's not like Chaosium has suggested that HQ is a sideline thing that doesn't really mean much in the environment. In fact, I'd say the exact opposite - that it's something that is an intrinsic and important part of the setting (whether or not players and GMs use it).

Without Heroquesting, would we have even 1/10th of the 'heroes' that are in the books? Even the lesser of those (Kallyr, Leika, etc) had to HQ in order to get to the positions, powers and abilitites they did.

So, yeah, I think not including them earlier was a mis-step.

Exactly. The Starter Set and GMs screen pack describes a lot of NPCs with powers axquired thru heroquesting. But 3 years after the GMSP there is still no rules - or even basic guidelines - for heroquests.

[soltakss]

On 8/1/2022 at 12:44 PM, Zelmor said:

On 8/1/2022 at 8:40 AM, soltakss said:

There are several big things coming up.

These things take time.

We have been waiting for over 40 years for the HeroQuesting rules, so I, personally, can wait a little longer.

This is not a defendable position I'm afraid, that something didn't happen for 40 years so we have to wait more. I will be selling my books it seems. I purchased the box set, source book and the red cow campaign book in the hopes that the company has a release schedule and will be slowly filling the void that is left by not including a GM book in the initial release. Keep in mind Earthdawn's newer editions did include the GM book in the initial release line when they decided to split the core book into two volumes. And that is not a new and hip product line or fantasy world either.

It is a shame that you are planning to sell your books due to the perceived lack of support.

On 8/1/2022 at 12:44 PM, Zelmor said:

The lack of a GM book is why I'm not not able to realize my dreams of running the Red Cow Clan campaign. I need some guidance as an inexperienced RQ GM who didn't start in the 80s, and no, not in the form of forum posts from old-timers.

Is the Red Cow Campaign for RuneQuest? I thought it was for HeroQuest/QuestWorlds. You might have a bit of work to do to convert it to RuneQuest.

This forum is very friendly and will happily support you in whatever challenges you have.

Sometimes asking old-timers gets you really good advice.

On 8/1/2022 at 12:44 PM, Zelmor said:

Not to derail, but I didn't understand the the need for a started package either, when there is no GM book. I'm not being helped as a new player by that release, and thus skipped it altogether. The reason we don't play RQ in my group is because I as a GM I have no grounds on which to build my work. So we play other things while our interest in Glorantha slowly fades away.

Have you tried looking at recordings of actual play? They give a lot of tips and you can see how a session gets played out.

If you have played something like Call of Cthulhu, then you might already have an idea of the mechanics for RuneQuest, as they are quite similar, to an extent.

On 8/1/2022 at 2:32 PM, Zelmor said:

Wow, what a great attitude. This sure is a welcoming and supportive community I'm glad to be participating in. 

Please allow me to add a couple decades of experience to my meager existence that started in the mid '80s and haven't rotated around this RPG since.

Truly I am to blame.

This actually is a very supportive community, if you let it.

People have been offering lots of advice, which you have refused to take or listen to.

There are always workarounds to the lack of an official supplement. However, you seem to be fixated on the lack of a GM Guide. That is a shame, as RuneQuest is a really good, fun game to play.

On 8/2/2022 at 1:08 AM, Zelmor said:

Please do not try to sidetrack the conversation into 'what kind of guidance do you need' or point at older product lines to spend time and money hunting for things. I don't know what I want in a GM guide. It is not my job to figure that out. I am the end consumer of the product and would like assistance on running the game, so that I have a reason to come back and buy the next book they publish. My time is mine to spend as I see fit, and it doesn't involve copious hours of researching old editions and their source books.

At the risk of sounding snarky, I echo your "Wow, what a great attitude.".

On 8/2/2022 at 1:08 AM, Zelmor said:

This derailing attitude is apologist bullshit. CoC has a Keeper's Handbook and an Investigator's Handbook, 300+ page beginner friendly campaign books, campaigns for different settings along the globe, god knows what else. What does RQ:G has, three years down the line? TWO (!) beginner products, an unfinished main product that is the slipcase set, one book with some spells and one with some weapon tables, and two loosely connected adventure books. This is what you roll out in the first year of a well planned out product like to keep a heartbeat for the game. No setting info, no material for a new GM to work with. Three years down the road after relaunch, why doesn't RQ:G is treated the same by Chaosium as CoC is? 

Call of Cthulhu pays the bills. This has been the case for a long while.

Some of us have strong views about that, but the RQ Line will be slower than Call of Cthulhu.

On 8/2/2022 at 1:08 AM, Zelmor said:

I spent money in hopes that there is a vision for the line, that they want to stand on two legs and not just ride the Cthulhu train until retirement. The unfinished slipcase set is sold as an entry into Glorantha, with a promise of a GM guide following soon. Yet, this promise seems to have been forgotten. There are no books on the peoples, cultures, cults, societies, the setting that is the strength of this whole product. Not to mention the supporting material in a proper GM guide to help GMs sell the game onto their players who haven't played King of Dragon Pass.

We would also like those things.

How fast can people type? It takes time, or a lot of people, to create such content.

On 8/2/2022 at 1:08 AM, Zelmor said:

What I would like is communication. From @Jeff or anyone in the position to say something, anything, beyond the vague 'we can't communicate nor estimate so there's that' thing that I've already found while looking for some clarification on the timeline.

Jeff is unlikely, from past experience, to share a release date for a supplement until it is almost complete.

The most he could say is "We are working on this and it should be published after <supplements>".

On 8/2/2022 at 1:08 AM, Zelmor said:

I was expecting people defending the current situation, but this is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not as emotionally invested like many here are, so I'm not making excuses for a for-profit company not delivering on their promises and seemingly not giving the smaller child the attention it would need to grow up and become an adult. As it is, Glorantha is obscure and hard to get into past the content of the beginner pack. Even harder than GURPS and Transhuman Space. No wonder people just play DnD and never hear about this setting.

RuneQuest is older than Call of Cthulhu, it is just not as popular.

Both RQ and CoC are adults, in this sense. 

I agree that Glorantha is obscure, yet it can be very rewarding and fun to play in the world.

It is a real shame that you think like this and I am not sure what we can do to help.

 

[soltakss]

On 8/2/2022 at 10:41 AM, Shiningbrow said:

On 8/1/2022 at 8:40 AM, soltakss said:

We have been waiting for over 40 years for the HeroQuesting rules, so I, personally, can wait a little longer.

You keep saying this like it's true.

It's not.

It's demonstrably, verifiably false.

Ok, true, HeroQuesting rules were published by Mongoose.

On 8/2/2022 at 10:41 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Mongoose had Heroquesting rules in publication within about a year of getting the rights... A full chapter, in fact (granted, 25 pages, most of which are example HQs for the various cults...).

Now, I don't recognise any of the names in MRQ1's authors etc list (other than Greg, of course), and so I have no idea how much time they had actually devoted to doing HQs previously in a RQ or similar setting and system, but it seems to me that for a group such as these to publish workable HQ rules within a year (or so...) of getting the license should mean that someone who was an active RQ player should be able to do the same - after 40-odd years of playing.

The Mongoose HeroQuesting rules were interesting. I liked some of them and the rest wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

However, I think that I am safe to say that HeroQuesting in RQM will not be using the Mongoose HeroQuesting rules.

On 8/2/2022 at 10:41 AM, Shiningbrow said:

I do understand some tweaks needing to be made, but I'd have thought that after all of these years, we're not back to trying to re-invent a wheel...

My guess is that they will be doing exactly that, starting at first principles.

[soltakss]

On 8/2/2022 at 10:43 AM, Zelmor said:

Some of you seem to be missing the point. I'm talking about coherency within a product line, with timely releases and something meaningful for new customers to keep coming back for. Fuel on the fire if you will.

It is a matter of what is seen as being essential.

Some people think that a good Cults book is essential, as Cults drive Glorantha.

Others think that Scenario Packs are essential, as Campaigns are what people play.

Many think that a GM Pack is essential, as it allows people to shape their RuneQuest scenarios and campaigns.

There are even some of us who think that a good HeroQuesting supplement is essential, to allow us to interact with, and become, Heroes.

So, which should be produced first? What order should they come in?

On 8/2/2022 at 10:43 AM, Zelmor said:

What you are suggesting, reaching back to older published books and working with those, brings up the question: why even invest in the new RQ:G product line then? It's an obvious poor choice compared to the older RQ editions, which by the way are now out of print just like the HQ stuff. But that is not how it is sold. It is sold as the definitive edition to go for if you want Glorantha. And that is simply not true. 

There is a lot of background for Glorantha that is in older supplements.

If Chaosium simply redid that background in new supplements, a lot of people would complain, as they did when this happened in RQ3.

On 8/2/2022 at 10:43 AM, Zelmor said:

And as for taking pride in waiting 40 years for the heroquest guidelines and rules that are yet undelivered, well, that's a very lame claim to fame in my book. I hope you get it before you croak, but that is not how I want to go about my hobby.

Nobody is taking pride in waiting for the supplements.

In fact, I grew so tired of waiting that I wrote my own.

However, it is what it is. We can accept it and wait, or complain and lose interest in the game.

I have done the former, you have done the latter. Neither of us is right or wrong.

On 8/2/2022 at 10:43 AM, Zelmor said:

Anyway, my slipcase box set is now up for sale in the Netherlands. Hit me up in private if you want it.

That is a shame.

 

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, g33k said:

"Why, in my day ... " <insert semi-amusing improbability or impossibility of your choice>

"Why, in my day we just got on with playing RuneQuest instead of whining about it"

Is that what you meant?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

33 minutes ago, soltakss said:

So, which should be produced first? What order should they come in?

I would accept any order at all.

[Jason Farrell]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I would accept any order at all.

Jeff R. has said on a couple of occasions that the Cults book, with its size and art requirements and such, created a publishing bottleneck, and that after its release we should see several books in quick succession.  Perhaps in a couple of years we'll be celebrating how much stuff is out for Runequest.

[ffilz]

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Only expert (well let's say initiate) or fan, not new customer, not lambda customer, should explore previous version. We can't ask the lay members to sacrifice all their POW to our initiates rituals.

Well, my take has actually been to recommend the classic game from the get go... It's a totally playable game. Not as some obscure initiation, but just plain seek out the game and play it.

But my recommendation doesn't seem to be popular 😞 ...

But I am also totally confident that what's available NOW for the current edition is plenty to play a totally satisfying campaign and if you choose to deep dive enough that heroquesting is important, there's stuff out there. But I feel like heroquesting IS a deep dive. For it to make sense, you need to be doing a deep dive into the mythology. It turns out that for me that's more of a deep dive into Glorantha than really interests me, so heroquesting actually is of little interest to me. And I hold myself up as proof that you CAN enjoy RuneQuest and Glorantha without the level of deep dive that makes people claim Glorantha is an unapproachable setting.

But that opinion doesn't seem to be popular 😞 ...

[ffilz]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

It is a matter of what is seen as being essential.

Some people think that a good Cults book is essential, as Cults drive Glorantha.

Others think that Scenario Packs are essential, as Campaigns are what people play.

Many think that a GM Pack is essential, as it allows people to shape their RuneQuest scenarios and campaigns.

There are even some of us who think that a good HeroQuesting supplement is essential, to allow us to interact with, and become, Heroes.

So, which should be produced first? What order should they come in?

There is a lot of background for Glorantha that is in older supplements.

If Chaosium simply redid that background in new supplements, a lot of people would complain, as they did when this happened in RQ3.

Nobody is taking pride in waiting for the supplements.

In fact, I grew so tired of waiting that I wrote my own.

However, it is what it is. We can accept it and wait, or complain and lose interest in the game.

I have done the former, you have done the latter. Neither of us is right or wrong.

That is a shame.

Good point about all the supplements. Of course the cynical response is that "well, then that should have all been released day 1." I guess what should have been released day 1 would have been a complete starter game since that's all that would have been feasible. That game would have been of limited interest to the existing fan base, but maybe it would have checked the boxes for the newcomers. Who then would have been confused by all the existing fans playing a completely out of print edition (RQ3), or playing a very different game that was soon going to go out of print (HeroQuest)... With a few holdouts running the now back in print RQ2 (or gosh, wow, someone still runs RQ1! Also back in print!)...

Another thought beyond the sales potential of RQ vs. Call of Cthulhu is that CoC has been in continuous publication so getting a new edition out was a much more incremental thing than RQ. But potential sales for RQ being much smaller is a very good point. CoC is a main stream game (in as much as anything other than D&D qualifying as main stream...). RQ is a niche game. As a niche game, RQ is going to require a different publishing strategy and that is to get the bulk of the game out quick in a single volume, and then supporting scenarios, and THEN the rules that are more specialized.

But then I have lots of patience... I use almost no material published later than 1993 (I am currently running part of Shadows on the Borderland)... And if I was forced to choose only a few books, I would pack my RQ1 book, Cults of Prax, and as many other things as I could (I actually once did a briefcase challenge to see what would fit in a laptop bag, not even a back pack).

I'm also eagerly awaiting most everything expected to be published "soon." I don't know what use I'll actually make of it, but I WILL pick it up.

[ffilz]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

"Why, in my day we just got on with playing RuneQuest instead of whining about it"

Is that what you meant?

Yea, whining about RuneQuest or Glorantha is getting old. There's more than enough stuff out there to play with and the setting isn't something unapproachable.

[Beoferret]

Out of curiosity:

a) What was supposed to be in the GM's Guide?

b) How much of that's been covered now in other official, published material?

c) What does everyone want in a GM's Guide that isn't already in currently published, official material?  (Aside from basic heroquesting rules 😁)

 

[ffilz]

14 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Out of curiosity:

a) What was supposed to be in the GM's Guide?

b) How much of that's been covered now in other official, published material?

c) What does everyone want in a GM's Guide that isn't already in currently published, official material?  (Aside from basic heroquesting rules 😁)

I think adventure writing guidelines (including treasure and possibly opposition scaling) are obvious. Also some encounter tables (those aren't on the GM screen?).

I'm not sure what setting material should be in a GM's guide. We're clearly getting a cults supplement that will cover that in plenty of detail beyond what is already in the core book and/or the starter set. We have a bestiary. There's the guide and source book for larger setting, with more setting supplements on the way.

I have seen some want for more on sorcery.

Beyond that I'm sort of struggling to understand what will be in this tome...

We have a table of contents back on page 1 of the thread with some sections highlighted in red.

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Out of curiosity:

a) What was supposed to be in the GM's Guide?

b) How much of that's been covered now in other official, published material?

c) What does everyone want in a GM's Guide that isn't already in currently published, official material?  (Aside from basic heroquesting rules 😁)

Look at my post middle of page 1 of this thread.  I marked what I think has already been covered against the original content list.

[jajagappa]

5 minutes ago, ffilz said:

Beyond that I'm sort of struggling to understand what will be in this tome...

We have a table of contents back on page 1 of the thread with some sections highlighted in red.

I highlighted the red items as what I thought were most critical for new GM's to wrap their heads around: how to run an RQG game, how to build adventures/encounters, how to leverage Passions and the like, how to create/distribute rewards. 

Also, a GM perspective on world themes (e.g. Orlanthi vs. Lunar, Storm vs Sky), on the environment (e.g. chaos, the Spirit World, etc.), and the relationship with magic (including Runes, rituals, the gods, myths, and ultimately heroquesting) would help the GM create memorable stories.

[Squaredeal Sten]

21 minutes ago, ffilz said:

... Also some encounter tables (those aren't on the GM screen?).

......

In such a detailed and varied world as Glorantha, no single encounter table can be true to the background.  The possible encounters should vary along several dimensions:

geographic area (after all Griffin Mountain has different encounters than Borderlands) ,

type of terrain,

urban vs rural vs. Oceanic,

and political (in Lunar dominated areas you may meet Lunar military, not so where Moonson's writ does not run),

even season.

[Beoferret]

35 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Look at my post middle of page 1 of this thread.  I marked what I think has already been covered against the original content list.

Holy crap, how did I miss your post?! You answered most (if not all) the questions I posed. Sorry for wasting everyone's time!

[Jason Farrell]

Encounter tables, imo, are about the least vital thing possible.  All you need is the bestiary and some common sense (don't attack adventurers with crocodiles on a mountain top, etc) and you're good.  You can even use this site to generate the stats if you're so inclined: https://basicroleplaying.net/rqg/adversaries/

If you gotta have them, they're out there.  Griffin Mountain, Pavis & Big Rubble, etc have encounter tables that can be tweaked and used.  If you can find them, Pavis: Gateway to Adventure and the Sartar Companion for HQ have extensive random encounter tables as well.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Jason Farrell

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, Jason Farrell said:

If you gotta have them, they're out there.  Griffin Mountain, Pavis & Big Rubble, etc have encounter tables that can be tweaked and used.  If you can find them, Pavis: Gateway to Adventure and the Sartar Companion for HQ have extensive random encounter tables as well.

Of course they are out there.  And those of us who have been with RQ for a while know that and can provide direction to those that are particularly useful.  But,... come at it from the standpoint of a new GM who is trying to learn how to use RQG and how to build an adventure, perhaps from scratch or perhaps just for some sandbox play.  When I started I could easily go to Appendix J in RQ2 and see what type of terrain I was in, roll the dice, and identify an encounter.  It was all in that one book (even if some of it was fairly brief).  

[Mugen]

On 8/2/2022 at 11:13 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Briefly dilating: because of the pervasive influence of the World's Favourite Role-Playing Game (TM), some people earnestly believe that every game needs its holy trilogy of Player's Handbook, Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide to be considered complete.

It seems to me the vast majority of rpg published since the release of 1st edition of AD&D did not reproduce this model, and didn't need it to be successful.

On 8/2/2022 at 11:13 AM, Nick Brooke said:

until the Mongoose era, no edition of RuneQuest had ever had anything called a Game Master's Guide, and frankly the less said about the Mongoose era, the better. But the perception is there, and is reinforced by the RQG Core book's (doubtless well-meant) indication that some secondary stuff is "coming soon."

There was indeed a GM book in the MRQ 1 line, but it was not a core rulebook at all, and waspublished 2 years after the original core rulebook. MRQ1 in fact reproduced Games Workshop's strategy for RQ3, with a basic rule book, a monster book and a book of advanced rules (the Companion).

[ffilz]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In such a detailed and varied world as Glorantha, no single encounter table can be true to the background.  The possible encounters should vary along several dimensions:

geographic area (after all Griffin Mountain has different encounters than Borderlands) ,

type of terrain,

urban vs rural vs. Oceanic,

and political (in Lunar dominated areas you may meet Lunar military, not so where Moonson's writ does not run),

even season.

True, and from that perspective, the GM's guide is the wrong place for encounter tables. They are better suited to regional supplements or scenarios. And in fact, when in an area covered by a supplement's encounter tables, I use those rather than the tables in RQ1 and RQ2.

I also have scoured a bunch of RQ products and made myself an index of encounter tables. I bet there will be a good list when the new Meints Index to Glorantha comes out...

[Jason Farrell]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Of course they are out there.  And those of us who have been with RQ for a while know that and can provide direction to those that are particularly useful.  But,... come at it from the standpoint of a new GM who is trying to learn how to use RQG and how to build an adventure, perhaps from scratch or perhaps just for some sandbox play.  When I started I could easily go to Appendix J in RQ2 and see what type of terrain I was in, roll the dice, and identify an encounter.  It was all in that one book (even if some of it was fairly brief).  

That's what I did.  I named some places to find them.

Mostly though, I was expressing my own opinion that encounter tables aren't a very necessary thing at all.  Certainly not a roadblock to running the game.  I am a new GM, and I don't need and won't use encounter tables.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Jason Farrell