Townsmen background & Sacred Time participation?

[thom]

Whoa!  Thanks for all the great replies! Especially you Jeff, that's a fantastic amount of useful info for me to GM with!  I want them to be native Sartarites, so I'm gonna tell my old-timers that they can go with Loyalty (Red Cow clan) since they are locals; or they can take Loyalty (Cinsina tribe) for a more distant relationship.  I know they're trying to avoid a lot of commitments/ties since they aren't as comfortable with the whole Passions segment of RQG - but they know I'm on to them! 😈

Thanks again everyone for all the help; this is what makes the RQ community so great...

thom

[Nick Brooke]

If there’s a loyalty they aren’t taking, that’s a source of support that won’t be available to them. Point that out, see if it changes any minds. Sure, you can burn your bridges with the clan leadership, but then they won’t help you out in a lawsuit.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, thom said:

I know they're trying to avoid a lot of commitments

 

Like  Nick, personaly, if they have no commitment to their "host",they should not expect any food / help / protection / advantage or even access to some discussion (can I negociate or even participate about my business ?).

I would probably see a new family coming, wanting to work and live in redcow clan, with some oath of loyalty to the clan (even if not adopted).. then the ring has to find them a house... but their is no empty house... what to do between choosing people loyal to the clan and people who aren't ?

 

The interesting thing would be to discuss why they are in red cow (why did they leave their home ? why did they choose red cow ?)

then define the passion from the previous home. Could be loyalty, could be fear, could be hate

and yes they should have a local passion (aka red cow) if they have been here for a long time. If your not in a great town (jonstown, etc...) where the "local" passion coud be a clan or a tribe (in my opinion) in red cow fort, the local is red cow, you live red cow, you eat "red cow", you meet red cow, you have friends and maybe ennemies red cow. You should have a red cow passion

 

in all cases, on my table, if you have not a red cow passion (in this case of course) or a "previous local" passion, you should explain by the background why. there are reasons, no problem, but they should think about it, and giving you explanation, you may gain some hook for a next scenario !

 

the point, maybe, should be to discuss with your players why they fear to have too much passion, that is not a background question, that is a GM-players question. Maybe some commitment (I swear I will not use passion to destroy your character every session) to gain some "loyalty GM" % (I would not say "love GM" but... why not 😛

 

 

[Darius West]

On 8/4/2022 at 4:29 AM, thom said:

Ok Wisebeards, I've come for some advice...

Hi thom, let me slip into my Lhankor Mhy beard like an extra from the Life of Brian in the stoning scene here... 

On 8/4/2022 at 4:29 AM, thom said:

My 2 old-timers (i.e. 1979+ RQ2 players) convinced the 2 beginners to take the craftsmen background so they could all be townies (because we remember how much better the townsman background was compared to the peasant one BITD)😈.  I (as GM) have decided they're living in Red Cow; so...my questions are:

Send my best regards to my fellow ancient RQ grognards.

On 8/4/2022 at 4:29 AM, thom said:

1) As townsmen, could they/should they be members of the Red Cow clan, and the Cinsina tribe? I ask because the passion examples of craftsmen do not include clans.  I can work with either way, but I'm curious how y'all handled this situation - if it even occurred in your games.

Okay, so they come from the more urban areas.  Not a problem.  Yes, they will potentially come from one of the clans of one of the Tribes in the area, but because they are living at a distance from their people's Tula, it is reasonable that perhaps the clan and tribe of their origin doesn't have as much claim on their loyalty as it otherwise might.  This would  be especially true if they were born and raised in the city, and perhaps only head out to the clan/tribal lands infrequently.  They may well feel more loyalty to their City and its Ring than to the clan/tribe. 

Personally as a child of a migrant, my Ukranian babusia used to say that "when you migrate, you sacrifice your children to the new land".  By this she meant that they will be raised in the new land with its values, not with the values of the Old Country.  This is likely true of Sartarite children raised in a Sartarite city, rather than the lands of their Tribe and Clan.  They will technically be (in this case) of the Cinsina Tribe and the Red Cow Clan, but these things are not an important part of their everyday life as they are urbanites.  If they were migrants to the city, they may well keep their clan and tribal loyalty, and have an underdeveloped loyalty to the City.

On 8/4/2022 at 4:29 AM, thom said:

2) As townsmen, how would y'all have them participate in the Sacred Time rituals (especially if they're not clan members)?

The thing about urban areas is that they tend to have BETTER Sacred Time ceremonies than those boondocks yokels can muster.  Why?  They will have bigger temples, with a more trans-tribal membership, and they will have more money.  Their Sacred Time ceremonies will have bunting of brocade and rich fabrics rather than straw and flowers.  Of course the City will be far less likely to sponsor Hero Quests too, as these will need to have the approval of the City Ring, and not prejudicially preference any of the clans or tribes specifically.

On 8/10/2022 at 12:06 AM, Jeff said:

Remember the scale of things in Sartar. A city is rarely going to be more than a long day's trek away from any associated tribal settlement (and often just a few hours away). These are not Medieval English peasants, tied to the land, but free people used to moving around and traveling. The Lunar Occupation interfered with this, but it was the aberration, and besides it is over now.

Jeff raises a very valid point.  Sartarite cities are generally located at a nexus between tribal lands, and existed to facilitate trade, and ended up creating a sense of nation where before there were only warring tribes and clans.  The lands of your tribe and clan are not so far away if you are a city dweller, so how come you don't have a passion for them then?

Well, there are potential reasons for this.  Firstly, if you are potentially rubbing shoulders with members of "enemy" tribes and clans every day, in a non-hostile context due to the cosmopolitan nature of urban life, you may decide you personally don't hate them.  This will go part way towards killing off your loyalty to the tribe/clan.  Then there is the issue that while the clan/tribe may have representatives in their district of the city, that doesn't mean that you as an artisan are properly represented by them.  The truth is, they may well be your landlord, and unless situations are unusual and the landlord is kind, this can be an unpleasant and exploitative relationship.  Often the interests of the clan and tribe won't align with the characters' own commercial interests, and thus the tribal representative may not be someone you trust, or who actually speaks for you, but actually an unrepresentative person who "speaks for the yokels" in your character's opinion.  Most societies experience an urban/rural divide that is very formative of the direction of their culture's long term growth.  Finally, as an urbanite, you will likely muster with your city's militia in times of trouble and not with your clan or tribal fyrd.  Who you fight and die alongside has a big role to play in where your loyalties lie.

 

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Jeff raises a very valid point.  Sartarite cities are generally located at a nexus between tribal lands, and existed to facilitate trade, and ended up creating a sense of nation where before there were only warring tribes and clans.  The lands of your tribe and clan are not so far away if you are a city dweller, so how come you don't have a passion for them then?

Well, there are potential reasons for this.  Firstly, if you are potentially rubbing shoulders with members of "enemy" tribes and clans every day, in a non-hostile context due to the cosmopolitan nature of urban life, you may decide you personally don't hate them.  This will go part way towards killing off your loyalty to the tribe/clan.  Then there is the issue that while the clan/tribe may have representatives in their district of the city, that doesn't mean that you as an artisan are properly represented by them.  The truth is, they may well be your landlord, and unless situations are unusual and the landlord is kind, this can be an unpleasant and exploitative relationship.  Often the interests of the clan and tribe won't align with the characters' own commercial interests, and thus the tribal representative may not be someone you trust, or who actually speaks for you, but actually an unrepresentative person who "speaks for the yokels" in your character's opinion.  Most societies experience an urban/rural divide that is very formative of the direction of their culture's long term growth.  Finally, as an urbanite, you will likely muster with your city's militia in times of trouble and not with your clan or tribal fyrd.  Who you fight and die alongside has a big role to play in where your loyalties lie.

 

Remember that until the Liberation, there was very much a divide between the Lunar Occupied cities and the rural tribes. Also, in many cases, one's loyalty to the local city might be rolled into one's loyalty to the Kingdom of Sartar.

[thom]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Remember that until the Liberation, there was very much a divide between the Lunar Occupied cities and the rural tribes. Also, in many cases, one's loyalty to the local city might be rolled into one's loyalty to the Kingdom of Sartar.

Now that's what I was originally thinkin' might happen; the PCs having a (more vague) Loyalty to the Old Kingdom they heard their elders always (wistfully) talking about. Sort of a general desire to be a part of regaining "the glory that was Rome".  So characters with a Loyalty (Kingdom of Sartar) would be motivated to fight now for the chance to return to the Old Ways (whatever that might mean).  But I didn't see a way to work with that in the rules until y'all made these points.  I'm going to see what the group thinks about all this...

thom

[Nick Brooke]

The best published source for this stuff is The Company of the Dragon. Its author Andrew worked with Jeff on the town vs. country parts of the forthcoming Sartar Book, so his account is unlikely to grotesquely violate what will eventually become canon. For what that's worth. 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The best published source for this stuff is The Company of the Dragon. Its author Andrew worked with Jeff on the town vs. country parts of the forthcoming Sartar Book, so his account is unlikely to grotesquely violate what will eventually become canon. For what that's worth. 

Yeah, the Sartar Player's Guide has a section on townsfolk and tribes person.