State of Sartarite trade to the Holy Country, 1625-1627ST

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Given the difficulties of the main trade routes between Nochet and Sartar - and the relatively brief period that the oceans have been open again - how common would it be to find items of Teshnan or Kralorelan origin in Dragon Pass (after having been brought through Nochet, of course)? What about Pamaltelan goods?  

Post-the Opening? Almost all goods of Teshnite or Kralorelan origin that makes it to the rich rulers of Peloria came through Sartar - and the Sartarites get the first claim on whatever goes through.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Given the difficulties of the main trade routes between Nochet and Sartar - and the relatively brief period that the oceans have been open again - how common would it be to find items of Teshnan or Kralorelan origin in Dragon Pass (after having been brought through Nochet, of course)? What about Pamaltelan goods?  

And the main trade route between Nochet and Sartar was screwed up for about a decade. By 1628 it starts to stabilise and by 1630 it is about as secure as it has ever been.

[svensson]

51 minutes ago, Jeff said:

No doubt the Lunar invasion of the Holy Country was bad for business. What had been the safest leg of any journey became the worst, with trolls imposing new tolls, bandits, and even scorpion men. The Lunars were not numerous enough to patrol the roads, and much of their army was bogged down in siege warfare or garrison duties.

The problem with 'empire' isn't the WINNING of the empire, it's KEEPING it. Especially when your empire is trying to impose a common set of laws, customs, and religion across its entirety. The Romans, British and French found this out to their very great discomfort. The Mongols were more successful because they DIDN'T change local cultures or religions. They had very simple laws with clear and absolute punishments for their violations, but Russians followed the laws and customs of Russia, Chinese followed the Chinese, etc.

In Gloranthan terms, the Lunars are trying to be the British Empire with a large slice of the Umayyad /Fatamids thrown in. They are not only driven by access to resources, but by religion and the absolute conviction that their way is the only right way to organize a society [despite all the evidence to the contrary]. They are a 'crusading' culture that ran up against a collection of races and people just simply refuse to be conquered. And now they're paying the price.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Beoferret said:

Given the difficulties of the main trade routes between Nochet and Sartar - and the relatively brief period that the oceans have been open again - how common would it be to find items of Teshnan or Kralorelan origin in Dragon Pass (after having been brought through Nochet, of course)? What about Pamaltelan goods?  

Jeff has answered affirmatively for Kralorela and Teshnos.

As for Pamaltela, that appears to be a great opportunity to write adventures.  I don't think there is anything published yet.

When the seas were closed there was no communication with Pamaltela, maybe exceptions for divination or teleportation but no cargo carriers.  

Now that the seas are open it's still unusually risky and very seasonal.  If you get into the wrong current you go down Magasta's Pool.  The eastbound route is known to be full of pirates.  I would think it's an Issaries heroquest to go there and find goods that will sell well enough to make the trip profitable and worth the risk  And what goods do you take south?  

[Jeff]

30 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Jeff has answered affirmatively for Kralorela and Teshnos.

As for Pamaltela, that appears to be a great opportunity to write adventures.  I don't think there is anything published yet.

When the seas were closed there was no communication with Pamaltela, maybe exceptions for divination or teleportation but no cargo carriers.  

Now that the seas are open it's still unusually risky and very seasonal.  If you get into the wrong current you go down Magasta's Pool.  The eastbound route is known to be full of pirates.  I would think it's an Issaries heroquest to go there and find goods that will sell well enough to make the trip profitable and worth the risk  And what goods do you take south?  

It is approximately 4250 kilometers from the Holy Country to Pamaltela, although most sailors travel clockwise around the Homeward Ocean, taking about 3 weeks to get to Maslo, give or take a few days.

To put that in context, the distances involved are significantly less than crossing the Atlantic from continental Europe to the Caribbean or North America. However, such travel is neither easy nor routine - the Closing of the Seas was overcome a little more than 40 years ago. For comparison, Columbus' first voyage to the Caribbean was in 1492; 40 years later Pizarro sacked Cuzco. However, our Genertela explorers and traders do not enjoy a significant military, technological, or magical advantage over the civilizations of Pamaltela. We generally get merchant entrepots rather than conquests. That being said, piracy is a great concern, and the Wolf Pirates are now numerous and strong enough to seize places by force.

In places like Nochet, Handra, Noloswal, and Dosakayo, trade with Pamaltela (and other overseas lands) is an important part of life and exotic fashions, spices, and other luxuries are going to be known and easily found (albeit expensive). Nochet has had more than a generation of such trade, and the other big Genertelan ports are catching up.

In Boldhome or Furthest, such trade is rarer and more sporadic, but it is present. Issaries caravans do bring overseas goods over Dragon Pass and into the Lunar Empire, with huge profits. Within the Lunar Heartlands, Pamaltela is a distant imaginary fairytale but luxury goods from there command huge sums.

[Jeff]

Just now, Jeff said:

It is approximately 4250 kilometers from the Holy Country to Pamaltela, although most sailors travel clockwise around the Homeward Ocean, taking about 3 weeks to get to Maslo, give or take a few days.

To put that in context, the distances involved are significantly less than crossing the Atlantic from continental Europe to the Caribbean or North America. However, such travel is neither easy nor routine - the Closing of the Seas was overcome a little more than 40 years ago. For comparison, Columbus' first voyage to the Caribbean was in 1492; 40 years later Pizarro sacked Cuzco. However, our Genertela explorers and traders do not enjoy a significant military, technological, or magical advantage over the civilizations of Pamaltela. We generally get merchant entrepots rather than conquests. That being said, piracy is a great concern, and the Wolf Pirates are now numerous and strong enough to seize places by force.

In places like Nochet, Handra, Noloswal, and Dosakayo, trade with Pamaltela (and other overseas lands) is an important part of life and exotic fashions, spices, and other luxuries are going to be known and easily found (albeit expensive). Nochet has had more than a generation of such trade, and the other big Genertelan ports are catching up.

In Boldhome or Furthest, such trade is rarer and more sporadic, but it is present. Issaries caravans do bring overseas goods over Dragon Pass and into the Lunar Empire, with huge profits. Within the Lunar Heartlands, Pamaltela is a distant imaginary fairytale but luxury goods from there command huge sums.

 

So as we think about the distance between the Holy Country and Pamaltela:

1. The Issaries cult maintains market-temples in Teshnos, East Isles, Teleos, Maslo, Fonrit, and Umathela. A lot of these temples got established in the last 30 years by Issaries priests from the Holy Country. Trade can take place safely between different peoples at these markets that are made and protected by Issaries' magic.

2. There are likely small settlements for merchants. Most are going to be established by agreement between the Issaries cult and the local rulers - few are going to be as autonomous as Dosakayo on Melba, which is essentially an independent city-state, but many rulers will likely find it useful to have a place where foreign merchants can reside, store their goods, etc. Especially if they get paid for it.

3. Nochet has almost 10,000 inhabitants that are not from Central Genertela (Holy Country, Maniria, Dragon Pass, Lunar Empire). That's a large city's worth of foreigners. That also includes people from Fonrit, Umathela, and Maslo.

[Joerg]

The Feathered Horse Queens will have profited from the disruption of the Karse route, even during the Siege of Nochet, when the Lunars controlled the port facilities of Pedastal and likely had Etyries merchants inviting overseas traffic. Karse was under Tarshite administration even after Fazzur had left, I suppose, or otherwise some other Eel-ariash client might have taken over that asset.

How are Fazzur's Orindori connected to the main house Eel-ariash, other than the friendship with Sor-eel?

[Kloster]

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There is actually a historical situation that matches my pessimistic model.  That is medieval Europe.   As I understand it in France the local nobility burdened trade with tolls.  It lasted centuries.  Even without a single clear choke point on the map.   Even the rise of the monarchy did not totally erase it, and the monarchy did grant monopolies.   Intra country free trade did not completely come true until the Revolotion.  Perhaps one of the French participants on the forum will correct or affirm my impression.

You are even below what was the situation up to roughly 15th century and only royal envoy (with merchandise/cargo/weapons/luxuries) could travel freely, but it improved slightly after that. 18th century was a period of trade for France. The revolution canceled this but the country was in terrible turmoil, so almost all trade was local or short ranged. 1st empire was also a great period of trade (and wars, but this is another matter).

[Kloster]

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Another historical example: Why are there many picturesque castles on the Rhine?  No  the medieval petit monarchs were not building to enhance modern tourism.  Each castle was a point at which they could charge tolls.

In France, a lot of toll points were on bridges or in narrow valley. Close to where I leave is a town named 'Peage de Vizille'. That means 'Vizille's toll'. This was where the tolls were payed, at the narrowest point of the Oisans's valley.

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That faith in "the market" doesn't fit the situation because we have been told there is only one road route into Heortland.  The alternative is by water via The Creek Stream river route to Nochet and then by sea across Choralinthor Bay.  That's very circuitous if you start out in Boldhome.  Maybe not too bad if you start in Clearwine.  But the sea crossing is now subject to piracy by the Wolf Pirates, see Jajagappa's description in this thread.

You make a fair point about the road.  I think that under the circumstances, with warlords potentially waiting to ambush merchants, they may well start seeking "paths less travelled".  I mean, if they're (figuratively) cutting throats at the crossroads, avoid the crossroads.