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The Great Hunt is my first time reading any Pendragon rules, hopefully someone can clear up some questions.

1st - Page 6, in red outer column it says "Each character or monster may attempt one action per combat round in addition to moving". But on the very next page, under Step two: resolve combat actions it says the exact opposite, "Generally, characters can either fight or move, but not both"

Im assuming the first rule in red is actually wrong, correct? 

2nd - page 4 under combat it says "An opposed roll required of a knight as a reaction to another is not considered their action for that round but a "free action."

So the higher DEX Character takes action first and attacks. Combat is simultaneous so their Adversary also rolls their attack. Winner/Loser outcomes are decided. Very cool.

However did that simultaneous opposed attack roll also count as the Adversaries action/attack for the round? Or when his DEX comes up does he still get to take an action?

The rule I quoted makes it sound like he would still get an action and for example could attack or move etc... 

But the way the rest of the rules are written it sounds like after Winners/Losers outcomes are determined you go straight to the movement phase, and the adversaries turn is over?

For example Combat Procedure shows the flow as: Declare Action > Resolve Action > Winners Outcome > Losers Outcome > Movement. But between winners Outcome and movement should there be a step that says "next Characters action" and you only go to movement after all have taken an action?

I'd think yes, but then I under Dropped or Broken Weapons it says "They start the next round unarmed"... Implying that theres no possibility of picking it up during the current round, which would seem to mean that once you're involved in a combat you can't take further action ..

So which is it? 

Thanks

 

Hopefully the finished 6ed rules are much more clearly written.

Edited by Metalzoic
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3 hours ago, Metalzoic said:

1st - Page 6, in red outer column it says "Each character or monster may attempt one action per combat round in addition to moving". But on the very next page, under Step two: resolve combat actions it says the exact opposite, "Generally, characters can either fight or move, but not both"

Im assuming the first rule in red is actually wrong, correct? 

Yes, I would trust what the actual rules say. The red outer columns are more like 'notes' or highlights, and I think in this case there has probably been an error.

3 hours ago, Metalzoic said:

2nd - page 4 under combat it says "An opposed roll required of a knight as a reaction to another is not considered their action for that round but a "free action."

The example given is a DEX roll to resist a knockdown. The actual opposed Combat roll IS an action: the 'defender' is choosing act by fighting back. Remember, all combat actions are done simultaneously. Everyone declares their actions, and then they are resolved.

Example:

Declaration:
Knight A (lower DEX) declares that he is attacking Knight B.
Knight B states that he is fighting Knight A.
Knight C, out of range, states he is moving to join the fight.

Combat:
Since both Knights A and B are fighting one another, we go straight to Combat resolution, and it doesn't matter who has the higher DEX since it is an opposed roll that happens simultaneously. C is not fighting, so nothing happens here.

Movement:
A and B were not moving. C has his move action left, so he moves into the fighting range and can participate in the next round.

3 hours ago, Metalzoic said:

I'd think yes, but then I under Dropped or Broken Weapons it says "They start the next round unarmed"... Implying that theres no possibility of picking it up during the current round, which would seem to mean that once you're involved in a combat you can't take further action ..

Yep, once you are fighting, that is your action for the round. In the main rules (of 5.2 edition), there is a -5/+5 combined action rearming penalty, when you get another weapon ready (often your sword or a spare axe/mace/hammer), or in the case of a sword, pick it up. So that would come into play in the next round. The combined action rule may have been omitted for brevity. At least that is how I would run it given the current knowledge of 5.2 + Quick start 6e rules.

EDIT: Going strictly by Quick Start rules, I would rule that the Rearming is an action. Thus, if Knight A's weapon is broken, he would have to spend Round 2 rearming. Luckily, Knight C is there to assist against Knight B, who gets to choose between hitting both A and C at -5 to his skill (see fighting multiple opponents box on p. 19; two rolls for B, first one against A is unopposed since A is rearming, the second one is against C's full skill), or focusing solely on A (B gets an unopposed strike on A, C gets an unopposed strike on B, and here I would rule that the DEX matters if B gets the strike off before C or not) or C (opposed combat between B and C, while A rearms in peace).

Edited by Morien
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6 hours ago, Grimmshade said:

Holy crap, I read all this totally wrong in the Quick Start. Thanks for the great examples @Morien

You are quite welcome.

Just out of curiosity, in what way did you read the rules wrong? Were you assuming, like happens in most RPGs of my experience, that it is 'I hit, then you hit'? So you were running two opposed rolls per round rather than just one?

I think it is always useful to hear from people who are new to the rules, since some of us old hands are already so set in our grooves that we may be blind to some phrasing that for us is obvious, but not so for a new person unfamiliar with KAP. 🙂

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3 hours ago, Morien said:

You are quite welcome.

Just out of curiosity, in what way did you read the rules wrong? Were you assuming, like happens in most RPGs of my experience, that it is 'I hit, then you hit'? So you were running two opposed rolls per round rather than just one?

I think it is always useful to hear from people who are new to the rules, since some of us old hands are already so set in our grooves that we may be blind to some phrasing that for us is obvious, but not so for a new person unfamiliar with KAP. 🙂

I was assuming that like in Call of Cthulhu you attack someone and they fought back and then they attacked you and you fought back. So that each person got an attack and a response in a round.

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1 hour ago, Grimmshade said:

I was assuming that like in Call of Cthulhu you attack someone and they fought back and then they attacked you and you fought back. So that each person got an attack and a response in a round.

Yeah, that is definitely something that is different in KAP than in most other RPGs. The whole exchange of blows (of each pairing) is handled with a single opposed roll.

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5 hours ago, Morien said:

Yeah, that is definitely something that is different in KAP than in most other RPGs. The whole exchange of blows (of each pairing) is handled with a single opposed roll.

Definitely different than we are used to. The whole system is going to be a shock to my players. Single roll combat, movement taking your entire turn, passions, etc. I'm looking forward to it. 

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Thanks Morien,

How you explained is actually how I thought it worked originally, until I read more carefully and saw that the RaW of the quick start contradicted that, which is what confused me.

The text "An opposed roll required of a knight as a reaction to another is not considered their action for that round but a "free action" Is really poorly worded.

As being attacked by a higher DEX knight would require you to make an opposed roll reaction in return. Which by that wording would not be considered their action.

The simultaneous combat is what interests me in the game as it's a far more realistic approach to combat and solves the artificiality of taking turns and normal initiative systems.

I've never looked into the game before because I have no interest in King Arthur. But if I had known it had simultaneous combat I would have picked it up back in the 80s, ha!

 

Hopefully this QS isn't a representation of the quality to expect of the final product. 

Anyway really appreciate you clearing it up!

 

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9 hours ago, Metalzoic said:

The text "An opposed roll required of a knight as a reaction to another is not considered their action for that round but a "free action" Is really poorly worded.

As being attacked by a higher DEX knight would require you to make an opposed roll reaction in return. Which by that wording would not be considered their action.

Yeah, it is not worded well, especially as the example, the DEX roll to avoid a knockdown, is not an opposed roll. I can't think off-hand any opposed rolls in combat (using KAP 5.2) that wouldn't be actions. If you drop the 'opposed' from that sentence, it would be much less confusing in the follow-up. Heck, for a quick start, just saying that Knockdown and Major Wound rolls are not Actions would be enough.

And yes, I can very easily see how the Quick Start rules as written lead to a confusion on how to resolve the combat. Especially if one is coming out of the "I hit and you parry, then you hit and I parry" paradigm.

There is another small mistake here, too: "A critical success adds an additional +4D6 to the Damage Attribute for this round." It should be "for this HIT": if you are fighting two opponents and you roll a critical success against one and a normal success on the other, the second guy doesn't take +4d6 extra damage simply because you criticalled against his friend.

Also, I noticed that in the QS rules, there is a CON roll to stay conscious if you take a MW. This is a change from the previous editions, where you rolled against current HP. This might actually make death more common for high CON characters, since they stay conscious a bit more often, and hence are in danger of getting killed by them next hit.

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6 hours ago, Morien said:

Also, I noticed that in the QS rules, there is a CON roll to stay conscious if you take a MW. This is a change from the previous editions, where you rolled against current HP. This might actually make death more common for high CON characters, since they stay conscious a bit more often, and hence are in danger of getting killed by them next hit.

A big change here is that characters with CON 20+ will never fall inconscious because of a Major Wound.

That makes fighting a creature such as the dragon in the quickstart much longer than before. Not couting the fact that their HP are based on SIZx2, which is a change I don't like, TBH

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Posted (edited)

Decided to look up the combat rules in previous editions to see if they were more clearly written and was surprised to see that the QS rules are almost a copy of the 5.2 rules which are just as wonky.

From 5.2

Quote

The limit of one action per melee round is therefore a loose one, with several notable exceptions. Usually, an opposed roll required of a knight as a reaction to the efforts or actions of another is not considered his action for that round, but a “free action.” For example, a character whose Knockdown value is exceeded must make a balance roll that round, but this balance roll does not constitute the knight’s action for this round.

Again seemingly saying an opposed roll initiated by another character doesn't count as their Action for the round. Like the QS it also gives an example of a non-opposed opposed roll (instead of an opposed roll) and makes it clear this doesn't count as their Action for the round. 

 

However the rest of the text makes it pretty clear that isn't correct. For example, just "exchanging blows" counts an an Standard Action, just like @Morien explains above.

Quote

 

Standard Actions

• Exchange blows with an opponent using simple opposed resolution (see “Die-Roll Resolution” in Chapter 5).

 

Then I thought maybe it was referring to this

Quote

Standard Actions

• Attack a surprised or helpless enemy, or one ignoring your attack, with an unopposed weapon roll.

But that would be an unopposed roll, so wouldn't apply.

 

I'm wondering this rule/paragraph has just been getting slightly altered down through the editions, morphing into this contradictory version?

For example, that same paragraph in 4th edition is explained in a way that makes way more sense. The "opposed role" wording isn't used at all and makes it clear rolls like these are just secondary action that routinely pop as part of the main combat Action.

Quote

The limit of one action per melee round is a loose one, with several apparent exceptions. For example, a character whose Knockdown statistic is exceeded must make a balance roll that round, which might be considered a second category of action. Defining balance as a part of routine combat maneuvering makes it clear that the limit is still valid

 

Who do we ask about clearing this paragraph up in the new edition? Hell, they could just put the 4.0 wording in and probably fix it.

Edited by Metalzoic
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On 8/16/2022 at 11:59 AM, Mugen said:

A big change here is that characters with CON 20+ will never fall inconscious because of a Major Wound.

That makes fighting a creature such as the dragon in the quickstart much longer than before. Not couting the fact that their HP are based on SIZx2, which is a change I don't like, TBH

This just changed in the latest adventure. Now Major Wounds mean automatic unconsciousness.

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2 hours ago, Metalzoic said:

Decided to look up the combat rules in previous editions to see if they were more clearly written and was surprised to see that the QS rules are almost a copy of the 5.2 rules which are just as wonky.

From 5.2

Again seemingly saying an opposed roll initiated by another character doesn't count as their Action for the round. Like the QS it also gives an example of a non-opposed opposed roll (instead of an opposed roll) and makes it clear this doesn't count as their Action for the round. 

 

However the rest of the text makes it pretty clear that isn't correct. For example, just "exchanging blows" counts an an Standard Action, just like @Morien explains above.

Then I thought maybe it was referring to this

But that would be an unopposed roll, so wouldn't apply.

 

I'm wondering this rule/paragraph has just been getting slightly altered down through the editions, morphing into this contradictory version?

For example, that same paragraph in 4th edition is explained in a way that makes way more sense. The "opposed role" wording isn't used at all and makes it clear rolls like these are just secondary action that routinely pop as part of the main combat Action.

 

Who do we ask about clearing this paragraph up in the new edition? Hell, they could just put the 4.0 wording in and probably fix it.

This is how I felt about the new edition of Runequest. I had not played anything except 1e. I bought the newest edition and could not make sense of some of the contradictory rules. It felt like all the confusion was caused by copy and paste sections from older editions.

I hope that the new Pendragon doesn't suffer from this. I don't own any previous editions so I can't really comment on that. 

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Couple of other questions for veterans of the system.

In the new quick start, it looks like the player knights have very few decent skills. They are well below average in most skills. Is this normal?

The NPC knights in the adventure have fantastic combat skills compared to the PC's, and there are more of them than PC's. Am I not reading it right, or is there little chance for a PC success here?

What is the Squire Skill? Are squires normally full characters?

The system looks amazing, and I'm anxious for the actual books, but it's pretty different than other games I've been playing lately. (I really like the sound of the mass battles! I love how they focus on PC events rather than rolling for the whole clashing armies.)

Edited by Grimmshade
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12 hours ago, Grimmshade said:

Couple of other questions for veterans of the system.

In the new quick start, it looks like the player knights have very few decent skills. They are well below average in most skills. Is this normal?

The NPC knights in the adventure have fantastic combat skills compared to the PC's, and there are more of them than PC's. Am I not reading it right, or is there little chance for a PC success here?

What is the Squire Skill? Are squires normally full characters?

The system looks amazing, and I'm anxious for the actual books, but it's pretty different than other games I've been playing lately. (I really like the sound of the mass battles! I love how they focus on PC events rather than rolling for the whole clashing armies.)

Yes it is typical that starting knights have low skills. In previous editions there is a cap on skills at character creation so you are unable to go above 15 at all. Actually compared, to 5.2e, many of the skills for the pre-gens here have higher skills. A lot of the pre-gens have a 5 in many of their low skills while in previous editions 2s or 3s were much more common.

The NPC knights have higher skills because they are likely intended to be more senior knights. King Lot/"The Commander" specifically is a legendary character, so his very high skills reflect that. The bodyguard units are meant to be some of a Lord's best knights - the ones who protect him. The other knights (Lothian and Gorre) have pretty typical combat skills - 17 Sword is quite average for a knight who has been around for more than a few years. Id say in my experience 15-17 is the common combat skill range for 'standard' knight enemies. For the player knights, one tool they have on their side to help them against these better knights are their passions, which can increase their skills to compensate. Otherwise, the 'lethality' of the adventure is minimal since there is only likely to be one round of combat, and using rebated weapons so half damage at most. EDIT: To complicate things more, the high skills of Lot and his bodyguards actually are not that high in practice. For the one tournament round, these characters would be mounted, and therefore their Sword/Charge skills are limited by their horsemanship skill -  a 16! So if lucky players got to fight against them, they would in practice be spared from the scary 20+ skills.

"Success" on the other hand is a bit relative - doing well in the tournament battle itself might be challenging and not all player knights will win their fight, but thats kind of par-for-the-course in Pendragon. The other parts of the adventure are still open for them to experience and tell a story as the adventure isnt written in a way that requires the players to succeed at any one thing for the adventure to move along. Its quite "safe" in that regard.

Regarding the squire skill: good catch! I don't think this adventure actually tells you what the squire skill is haha. In past editions, the squire skill is equal to their age. So a new squire will start at 14, while an older one nearing knighthood would have a 20. Squires can be full player characters, nothing prevents that, but the rules dont give too much support for how they differ from playing knights. A 5.2e supplement "Book of the Entourage" gives more mechanics for playing a squire, but not a whole lot.

Edited by Brown
forgot about the new horsemanship rules!
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1 hour ago, Brown said:

Yes it is typical that starting knights have low skills. In previous editions there is a cap on skills at character creation so you are unable to go above 15 at all. Actually compared, to 5.2e, many of the skills for the pre-gens here have higher skills. A lot of the pre-gens have a 5 in many of their low skills while in previous editions 2s or 3s were much more common.

The NPC knights have higher skills because they are likely intended to be more senior knights. King Lot/"The Commander" specifically is a legendary character, so his very high skills reflect that. The bodyguard units are meant to be some of a Lord's best knights - the ones who protect him. The other knights (Lothian and Gorre) have pretty typical combat skills - 17 Sword is quite average for a knight who has been around for more than a few years. Id say in my experience 15-17 is the common combat skill range for 'standard' knight enemies. For the player knights, one tool they have on their side to help them against these better knights are their passions, which can increase their skills to compensate. Otherwise, the 'lethality' of the adventure is minimal since there is only likely to be one round of combat, and using rebated weapons so half damage at most. EDIT: To complicate things more, the high skills of Lot and his bodyguards actually are not that high in practice. For the one tournament round, these characters would be mounted, and therefore their Sword/Charge skills are limited by their horsemanship skill -  a 16! So if lucky players got to fight against them, they would in practice be spared from the scary 20+ skills.

"Success" on the other hand is a bit relative - doing well in the tournament battle itself might be challenging and not all player knights will win their fight, but thats kind of par-for-the-course in Pendragon. The other parts of the adventure are still open for them to experience and tell a story as the adventure isnt written in a way that requires the players to succeed at any one thing for the adventure to move along. Its quite "safe" in that regard.

Regarding the squire skill: good catch! I don't think this adventure actually tells you what the squire skill is haha. In past editions, the squire skill is equal to their age. So a new squire will start at 14, while an older one nearing knighthood would have a 20. Squires can be full player characters, nothing prevents that, but the rules dont give too much support for how they differ from playing knights. A 5.2e supplement "Book of the Entourage" gives more mechanics for playing a squire, but not a whole lot.

Great answers! Thanks man!

It's kind of cool that the battle is supposed to be difficult, and I forgot about Passion boosts, which could help a lot. 

I'll just make Squire skill like 15 for now. 

I can't wait to see more of this game. 

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@GrimmshadeA big change in skill values is hidden in the characteristics section, which says DEX and APP give base values to some skills. Which is new.

I don't have my rulebook right now, but I don't remember any hard limit to skills. In my memory, you can't have skill above 15 if your character is 15 years old, but you can train him afterwards if he's older, up to 20.

However, you have to focus solely on the skill you train, which means players usually chose to train other skills or characteristics.

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7 hours ago, Mugen said:

I don't have my rulebook right now, but I don't remember any hard limit to skills. In my memory, you can't have skill above 15 if your character is 15 years old, but you can train him afterwards if he's older, up to 20.

KAP 5.2? The hard limit is in the chargen, which says that you can't go above 15 (except with family characteristic). Individual Skill Choices, p. 38: "No Skill or Combat Skill may ever be raised above 15 by this process."

If you are older than 21, you get to use the Previous Experience rules, and even then: "no Skill may be raised above 15." (I do ignore that in our house-rules and instead use the normal Winter Phase's Yearly Training & Practice rules.)

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Can a skill ever go above 20?

Do Attributes/Characteristics increase?

In the quick start it says wooden/dull weapons do half damage. It also says pulling hits does half damage. Is this cumulative? (So 1/4 damage?)

Edited by Grimmshade
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1 hour ago, Grimmshade said:

Can a skill ever go above 20?

I assume so*, with Experience check roll of 20 or using Glory Bonus Points. Or via magical item or temporarily from a passion.

1 hour ago, Grimmshade said:

Do Attributes/Characteristics increase?

I assume so*, with Yearly Training and Glory Bonus Points. And magic, etc.

1 hour ago, Grimmshade said:

In the quick start it says wooden/dull weapons do half damage. It also says pulling hits does half damage. Is this cumulative? (So 1/4 damage?)

I assume so*.

* Based on 5.2 with nothing in the Quickstart to contradict it.

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13 hours ago, Morien said:

KAP 5.2? The hard limit is in the chargen, which says that you can't go above 15 (except with family characteristic). Individual Skill Choices, p. 38: "No Skill or Combat Skill may ever be raised above 15 by this process."

If you are older than 21, you get to use the Previous Experience rules, and even then: "no Skill may be raised above 15." (I do ignore that in our house-rules and instead use the normal Winter Phase's Yearly Training & Practice rules.)

That's why I remembered it differently : I don't own KAP 5.2, only 3rd edition, and always used the complete rules in Knight Adventurous 🙂 . As a matter of fact, the sentence you quoted also exists in this edition, and raising skills above 15 is in a second option, along with character traits.

11 hours ago, Morien said:

I assume so*, with Experience check roll of 20 or using Glory Bonus Points. Or via magical item or temporarily from a passion.

(...)

* Based on 5.2 with nothing in the Quickstart to contradict it.

In the Great Hunt (page 15), Sir Servause has Hunting 20 (+3), which is the same as having Hunting 23 in previous editions.

So, at least, we have one NPC with a skill above 20. 😄

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5 hours ago, Mugen said:

So, at least, we have one NPC with a skill above 20. 😄

Isn't he the old host? Plenty of time for exp checks and Glory. 

You are absolutely right about the previous experience though.  Shows what happens when posing in a hurry...

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Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2022 at 4:15 PM, Hzark10 said:

Forgive me for coming late, so to speak sir, But which paragraph are you referring to (just so I am absolutely sure) when you ask about "clearing this paragraph up in the new edition?"

 

This one from the 6th edition Quickstart rules, pages 4-5:

Quote

The limit of one action per Combat Round is therefore a loose one, with several notable exceptions. An opposed roll required of a knight as a reaction to another is not considered their action for that round, but a “free action.” For example, a character whose Knockdown value is exceeded must make a DEX roll that round, but this roll does not count as the knight’s action

The part I emphasized about "opposed" rolls seems to contradict the rest of combat/actions rules as written in the rest of the text. It was worded about the same in 5.2. But in 4th edition it was much more clear, and didn't seem to run counter to the rest of the text.

Edited by Metalzoic
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There are other actions one can take during a Combat Round. For example, dodge, move, give commands to follower, use as skill such as hunting or awareness. Your bolded statement means that you still can fight and do your action. Remember, the Quick Start rules are a summation of multiple pages to fit within a given space. When the full rules are released, I anticipate they will be much clearer. 

Thank you for clarifying. If I did not answer your query, please let me know.

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