Whitewall in 1627 ST

[Squaredeal Sten]

What is the status of Whitewall in 1627ST?

It is 5-6 years after the Fall of Whitewall.  And before that there were years of Lunar seige.  Presumably the inhabitants were driven away or enslaved, including the farmers who osed to feed the city.  The temples desecrated, the walls broken and perhaps razed.  The Crimson Bat even visited.

All this would Indicate to me that there is no reason to visit the place unless you are studying ghosts.

But it has been five complete years since the fall,  two since the Dragonrise. I would think the surrounding clans would come back to their land.  The Lunars might even have encouraged them to come back and pay taxes.  

As for the city itself, deserted?  Haunted by the ghosts of those lucky enough not to have been eaten by the Bat?  Or populated but a shadow of itself?  Did the Lunars erect their own temples there?  Is there a population of Lunar converts, now at odds with their neighbors? 

Or is it still considereal Orlanthi sacred ground?

Would Broyan have tried to restore it in his brief time after Nochet?  That seems to me something a king might do in peace. But Broyan really didn't have any peace.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
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[Cassius]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It is 5-6 years after the Fall of Whitewall.  And before that there were years of Lunar seige.  Presumably the inhabitants were driven away or enslaved, including the farmers who osed to feed the city.  The temples desecrated, the walls broken and perhaps razed.  The Crimson Bat even visited.

Where did I read that when the Lunars finally conquered the citadel, they found it empty?

[Daesta]

Here’s a map of Whitewall 1625… 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/facebook/2019-04-jeff-on-facebook/image-61-2/

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

Where did I read that when the Lunars finally conquered the citadel, they found it empty?

Most likely in King of Sartar, and then the Glorantha Sourcebook.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Daesta said:

Here’s a map of Whitewall 1625… 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/facebook/2019-04-jeff-on-facebook/image-61-2/

Here are both maps with the keys: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/1618-1625-whitewall-map-previews/

The 1625 key certainly tells the tail of what is happening now.

Edited August 17, 2022 by David Scott

[Squaredeal Sten]

Thanks.  Looks like Geo's inn was not destroyed.  Serious damage in the hilltop citadel, many buildings destroyed, both palace and ordinsry houses. Less danage in the "new town ".  Walls and gates breached but not razed.  Some temples still standing.  

Open questions: what is the state of the population?  And of their housing?  Surrounding farming clans?

So did New Town not exist in 1618?

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Detail in map 1

[David Scott]

58 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So did New Town not exist in 1618?

Looks very much like it has sprung up as the entrance to Whitewall has moved (alynxes Landing looks flattened) ,The northern area looks like the abandoned lunar encampment.

[Joerg]

The "New Town" may well have sprung up when Tarkalor gave the Volsaxi access to their ancestral fortress and built the road to Karse. Previously the place seems to have been a temple that saw only activity at special holidays, without much (if any) of a permanent population.

[jajagappa]

22 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What is the status of Whitewall in 1627ST?

In many ways still to be determined.

The maps bring you up to 1625 with Newtown having sprung up at the base (out of/on top of the Lunar army camp below Whitewall).

Broyan, before he died, led an expedition with the local Storm Voice to reopen the gates to the city (particularly the upper city) and reinvest the temple of Orlanth.  Before that (i.e. 1621-4) the city is a place of ghosts, demons, Chaos, spirits endlessly fighting, etc.  It is effectively closed unless you want to be possessed or otherwise killed.

Some temples (Geo's!) surprisingly survived the siege and subsequent period (does not mean the temple had inhabitants through that period though).

22 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I would think the surrounding clans would come back to their land.  The Lunars might even have encouraged them to come back and pay taxes.  

Control of Newtown and the Whitewall Road is in the hands of the Olontongi tribe, which is largely a collection of Broyan's surviving warbands, now turned settlers.  

22 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As for the city itself, deserted?  Haunted by the ghosts of those lucky enough not to have been eaten by the Bat?  Or populated but a shadow of itself?  Did the Lunars erect their own temples there?  Is there a population of Lunar converts, now at odds with their neighbors? 

Or is it still considereal Orlanthi sacred ground?

Would Broyan have tried to restore it in his brief time after Nochet? 

The main city is a place of ghosts.  Orlanthi and Lunar warrior ghosts continue in their endless fight from the days when the siege ended (i.e. Lunar ghosts charge up ghostly ramps and climb the walls, Orlanthi ghosts hurl ghostly stones and winds, etc. to hold them off).  

Chaos (e.g. remnants from Broyan's fight to drive off the Crimson Bat) still exist there too, particularly in the upper city/palace.

The Orlanth temple, though, has been reconsecrated by the actions of Broyan, and priests can travel Broyan's path to get there.  But it is still dangerous to do so.  

The rest of the city is sufficiently dangerous that even the Wolf Pirate allies of Broyan have not yet braved the city for loot.  Broyan kept them at bay by promising the loot of Boldhome when his army prepared to march there.  But Broyan died, and the Dragon has risen, and now there are Wolf Pirates and other mercenaries hanging around in Newtown getting bored and thinking about loot and treasure.

Largely you can think of Whitewall as a Little Rubble.  Bold adventurers can try to get up and in.  Whether they return is a question, but that's basically where we are late in 1625.

Newtown is a volatile place though.  Though the Olontongi hold it (one of Broyan's lieutenants leads the tribe), there are others who desire to gain control of the trade (and "tribute") passing through - which is a far more reliable source of wealth than daring the haunts of Whitewall itself.

This is the basic background I've worked into the Whitewall and Heortland material.  May of course get changed before it gets published, but that's how I've interpreted the current state.

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So did New Town not exist in 1618?

Nope, it's the remains of the Lunar army camp.

 

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Nope, it's the remains of the Lunar army camp.

What's the northern enclosure? Looks abandoned?

[Squaredeal Sten]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

......

The maps bring you up to 1625 with Newtown having sprung up at the base (out of/on top of the Lunar army camp below Whitewall)........

Some temples (Geo's!) surprisingly survived the siege and subsequent period (does not mean the temple had inhabitants through ....

 

 

So no one is staying at Geo's these days (i.e. 1625-1627 ST).  There is an inn in Newtown according to the map key.  Newtown will be a very new settlement, few amenities.  But a local market for the surrounding clans.

It would seem to make sense for periodic priestly visits to the Orlanth temple, perhaps with an escort of Humakti, to gradually clear the ghosts from the priests' path in.  

It would seem to me that other spots on the trade road would begin to take over Whitewall's economic functions.  Not having to be taxed by a major city's king and Earth temple, their people might even end up more prosperous.  If they can get beyond the anarchy left in the wake of the Lunars.

Being in Heortland rather than in Sartar, they will not have the benefit of whatever stabilization might come from Kallyr's and then Argrath's governments.

  

 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So no one is staying at Geo's these days (i.e. 1625-1627 ST).

Well, you can go up the trail and investigate.  The Olontongi likely have guards to keep people out (claiming Whitewall for themselves, yet with Broyan's demise lacking the magical power to truly cleanse the place).  And then there may be ghosts or others to avoid.

But... if any place might have someone in it, it would not surprise me if it were Geo's, perhaps with an innkeeper sustained by Geo's Soup Pot or similar, and likely with Geo's Bouncer still enforcing the rules.

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It would seem to make sense for periodic priestly visits to the Orlanth temple, perhaps with an escort of Humakti, to gradually clear the ghosts from the priests' path in. 

Yes, the Storm Voice is leading visits at least on the Orlanth holy days.  Expect an escort of powerful Orlanthi and Humakti who can keep to Broyan's Path and keep dangers off (unless it's Chaos, and there is still Chaos around).  It would not surprise me though if Kallyr's failed LBQ has some ramification here (Chaos boiling out of obscure cracks or the like).  So that might leave sporadic bad omens through 1626.  

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It would seem to me that other spots on the trade road would begin to take over Whitewall's economic functions.  Not having to be taxed by a major city's king and Earth temple, their people might even end up more prosperous.  If they can get beyond the anarchy left in the wake of the Lunars.

Exactly.  The Olontongi are trying to make Newtown that place since it is right on the Trade Road.  Karse and Smithstone remain important stopping points on the way north or south.  Wilmskirk and Boldhome at the north end of the route.  But the North Vale is something of a chokepoint along the way so a mini Game of Thrones seems in order to see who ends up on top and in control.

[Joerg]

IMG the Lunar camp outside of Whitewall was full of amenities for Heartland nobles, mages and officers during the siege. The Windstop following the final conquest of the fortress may have led to abandonment of many of those, but I don't think that the amenities will have been completely dismantled. More likely, former citizens of the citadel would have taken these over during or after the Windstop, when Lunar oversight of the place was negligible and routed by Broyan. Tatius had no great interest in keeping Heartland troops in Heortland, and the Tarshites had lost control over most of the Lunar army resources in the region. Having a functional caravan stop outside of the Whitewall citadel would have been in the interest of Lunar merchants.

The Siege of Nochet bound most of Broyan's remaining military forces, and much of the expansionist factions' efforts, too, even while waiting for the Sartar Temple to the Reaching Moon to become operational. Fazzur's forces based in Karse might have been involved in the logistics for that campaign, but weren't trusted by Tatius.

There isn't really a viable alternative to Tarkalor's road from Wilskirk to Karse via Whitewall. Traveling around Whitewall will happen at best on secondary roads, more often without any kind of support for caravans.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

What's the northern enclosure? Looks abandoned?

The Lunars made encampments both at Newtown and to the north of Whitewall (in Sylangi territory) to cut off the city.  (And kept whatever Lunar College of Magic units that were there 5km to the north by the Derensev LM temple where they could "borrow" relevant texts.)  The camp north of the city was abandoned when the Lunars left and has not been reoccupied (it had less permanent buildings and what were there were likely attacked and burned by pursuing Heortlanders).  While the Sylangi or others have likely scoured the place for treasures, who knows what else might be found there, or what it might be used for.

[Squaredeal Sten]

I am thinking that nearby villages / clan seats on the trade road north or south may compete to be the new regional market town and place where you can find services such as scribes. Healers.  

It seems to me that there is a competitive safety advantage for both merchants at a market and scribes etc: Neither activity benefits from being just down hill of a place where gorps may spawn.  Why run risks?

Whittewall in next to a river whose headwaters seem to be half way to Wilmskirk.  But I judge it is not navigable by anything deeper than a raft or a canoe, at least until it gets closer to the Marzeel River.  Or was Whitewall the northern limit of navigation?  I don't see anything that appears to be a river port on the earlier map which David Scott provided.  Alynx landing might sound like it. But looks small.

I am not sure what other chaos besides gorp might pop up in Whitewall.  Krarshtkids?  IMHO broos would not generate spontaneously.  Scorpion men might  come from the Footprint but not teleport in.

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Map

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I am thinking that nearby villages / clan seats on the trade road north or south may compete to be the new regional market town and place where you can find services such as scribes. Healers.  

Scribes are at the Derensev LM temple 5km north of Whitewall.  Healers had an important temple at Whitewall and a temple in Karse.

The main point between Whitewall and Wilmskirk is Twotop, the tribal center of the Kultain.  The main point south from Whitewall to Smithstone is Karstenstead, commonly the tribal center of the Volsaxar when Whitewall not used as such.  

13 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Whitewall in next to a river whose headwaters seem to be half way to Wilmskirk. 

The Gavren River is seasonal, so not usable for navigation (indeed the Marzeel is not navigable beyond Enks Ferry, i.e. not to Smithstone).  Headwaters of the Gavren are the Auroch Hills.

15 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't see anything that appears to be a river port on the earlier map which David Scott provided.

The port is Karse.  Goods are moved to mule and wagon from there.  

16 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I am not sure what other chaos besides gorp might pop up in Whitewall. 

Bits of the Crimson Bat that were hacked off including Chaotic Ticks and continue to live (and spawn).  The Lunars including magicians wielding Lunes, madness spirits, and likely Chaos spirits, as well the Shargashi who killed Orlanth and Ernalda, so Hell Demons are possible, or really any sort of demon, maybe even a Cacodemon fiend.  Certainly krarshtkids could appear.  Broo and scorpionmen are less likely.  If you have any stagnant water (contaminated wells) you might get dragonsnails.  Chaos snakes (as in RQ2) are quite possible.  

 

[Nick Brooke]

On 8/18/2022 at 8:28 PM, jajagappa said:

But... if any place might have someone in it, it would not surprise me if it were Geo's, perhaps with an innkeeper sustained by Geo's Soup Pot or similar, and likely with Geo's Bouncer still enforcing the rules.

Geo's Bouncer is why Geo's is still standing. And it's not remotely surprising, to anyone who played Home of the Bold...

[Nick Brooke]

If monstrous Lunes (and even worse Lunar demons) don't spontaneously manifest in Whitewall on some unhallowed Full Moon nights, I'm a Dutchman. (And I'm not a Dutchman)

[Eff]

Supposedly, Broyan and company escaped Whitewall by a detour through the Underworld, so really any chthonic critters could have wandered through whatever door they opened. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/17/2022 at 2:16 PM, jajagappa said:

.....

Newtown is a volatile place though.  Though the Olontongi hold it (one of Broyan's lieutenants leads the tribe), there are others who desire to gain control of the trade (and "tribute") passing through - which is a far more reliable source of wealth than daring the haunts of Whitewall itself.

This is the basic background I've worked into the Whitewall and Heortland material.  May of course get changed before it gets published, but that's how I've interpreted the current state.

...

 

Did anyone ever name who Broyan's lieutenants were, or detail the Olontongi clan/tribe?  I ask because my adventurers are headed that way.  

Although they are headed to Smithstone to buy bronze, so Newtown and Whitewall are just on the way.  And I intend to encourage them not to stay at Whitewall long, between the ghosts and the chaos. 

Though ghosts have stopped bothering this group much: Last Friday they squeezed a spirit spell out of one like squeezing a lemon.

[jajagappa]

On 8/21/2022 at 9:25 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Did anyone ever name who Broyan's lieutenants were, or detail the Olontongi clan/tribe?  I ask because my adventurers are headed that way.  

No one has detailed all of Broyan's lieutenants.  Kallyr and Leika both served in such roles at points during the Siege of Whitewall.  Other unnamed lieutenants likely died when Broyan was killed.

Current survivors include:

Derdronik, King of the Olontongi.  He's the primary survivor and leads the warbands that have coalesced as the Olontongi tribe.

Dangonil Longbreath, Storm Voice of Whitewall.  Long-time companion of Broyan and has led the cleansing of the Orlanth temple in Whitewall.

Hargart Wildwind, Storm Khan of northern Heortland.  Currently recruiting Storm Bulls to fight Gagix.

Valkora Longtooth, Wolf Pirate.  Her warband/crew are currently at Newtown, but she was promised treasure from Boldhome, which she didn't get and is currently chomping at the bit to get some plunder...

I've got various other characters named, so if you need something more detailed, let me know.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Thanks, last week i named a clan chief & storm voice myself.  But am still grateful for yours.   Mine had fairly pacific reactions when the party met bandits north of Whitewall, caught five who cried ransom and were Olontongi. 

A deal was cut - the five each had to put in a point of POW to an enchanted item.  Plus cash and two pair of Walktapus hide gloves. 

The party in question has proceeded to Smithstone -  but will go through Whitewall again on the way back.

 

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/18/2022 at 7:19 PM, jajagappa said:

 

The main point between Whitewall and Wilmskirk is Twotop, the tribal center of the Kultain.  The main point south from Whitewall to Smithstone is Karstenstead, commonly the tribal center of the Volsaxar when Whitewall not used as such. 

Just one minor point on which I ask for clarification or correction:  P.109 of the RQiG rules says in its paragraphs on the Wilmskirk confederation, that the Kultain were broken up and became part of the Olontongi as of the base date,  1625 ST.  (Olontongi are listed under both Wilmskirk and Whitewall on that page.)

So is Twotop the Olontongio tribal center?   Are the Olontongi Volsaxi tribe, or their own tribe?  Twotop as an Olontongi tribal center  seems improbable from the discussion of Whitewalll, but i may have misunderstood.. 

If Twotop is no longer a tribal center, that will have implications for my campaign outline, only significant because i am working with  tribal politics as part of a scenario.  I currently lean in the direction of it having suffered in the Lunar retreat,  and Twotop would merely be the center of the Red Hand clan, with a potentially valuable location near the trade road into Heortland.

 

[Joerg]

The dissolution of the Kultain may have been overstated. They still are part of the Wilmskirk federation in the core rules.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Just one minor point on which I ask for clarification or correction:  P.109 of the RQiG rules says in its paragraphs on the Wilmskirk confederation, that the Kultain were broken up and became part of the Olontongi as of the base date,  1625 ST.  (Olontongi are listed under both Wilmskirk and Whitewall on that page.)

So is Twotop the Olontongio tribal center?   Are the Olontongi Volsaxi tribe, or their own tribe?  Twotop as an Olontongi tribal center  seems improbable from the discussion of Whitewalll, but i may have misunderstood.. 

If Twotop is no longer a tribal center, that will have implications for my campaign outline, only significant because i am working with  tribal politics as part of a scenario.  I currently lean in the direction of it having suffered in the Lunar retreat,  and Twotop would merely be the center of the Red Hand clan, with a potentially valuable location near the trade road into Heortland.

Looking at the tribal map here, it could be an error given the location of the Olontongi: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-holy-country-after-1616/

perhaps @Jeff could clarify?