Free League's Drakar och Demoner / Dragonbane

[Narl]

Starting a new topic here rather than continuing the thread in the Basic Roleplaying forum.

Is Dragonbane a BRP game? My initial opinion is that it is. It has what I consider many of the common elements of a BRP game:

• Roll under skill system (though d20 rather than d100 and also a quite limited skill list).
• Six stats generally running from 3-18.
• No levels.
• No classes (but it does have professions that grant exclusive abilities).
• Fixed HP that don't really increase.
• Magic points used to power spells at variable levels.
• Magic as a skill.
• Armor that absorbs damage.
• Options to parry, block, and dodge (though quite limited).
• Criticals and fumbles.
• Weapon and shield damage.

It does add a few things that seem to have been lifted from 5th Edition D&D:

• Death saves.
• Boons and banes (advantage and disadvantage).
• Full overnight HP and MP recovery.

Along with some things derived from other Free League games and elsewhere:

• Pushing rolls.
• Conditions.
• Kin and profession abilities.
• Card-based initiative.
• Monster attacks using tables.

I am sure I missed some stuff. We haven't seen the complete game yet so there is more to add to these lists. The roots of the game are acknowledged in the credits with specials thanks to both Steve Perrin and Chaosium.

When I ran the quick start scenario, it did feel like BRP. I have run games using the Worlds of Wonder Magic World booklet and it is clear that is where the roots of this game are.

[svensson]

I didn't back it, so I don't have the rules in front of me, but it might be a BRP OGL setting.

That would authorize them to use many BRP mechanics with their own elements.

I DID back their Twilight 2000 K/S, and I'm very satisfied with the product I got, but they have released ZERO support for it since the original boxed set was delivered. Meanwhile lots of support for Aliens, Tales From The Loop and other games have come out and they've been cranking out kickstarters like it's going out of style. But I'd REALLY rather that they support the two games that I DID back... The One Ring and T2K... before I back any of their other K/S efforts.

[g33k]

I've got to point out that Pendragon is both a d20-roll system AND a "BRP" game with the roll-under / skill-centric / no-character-class-or-level / etc mechanics.
 

I don't think Dragonbane partakes in any way of Chaosium's "BRP OGL - SRD" initiative, however.

They may have taken an extra step (or two) to make sure they didn't step on Pendragon's toes.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Of course it is. The variations of BRP which are nevertheless still recognised as BRP are many, as was evidenced when the Big Gold Book was put together. DoD is a clear branch of the tree.

[g33k]

22 hours ago, svensson said:

...

I DID back their Twilight 2000 K/S, and I'm very satisfied with the product I got, but they have released ZERO support for it since the original boxed set was delivered. Meanwhile lots of support for Aliens, Tales From The Loop and other games have come out and they've been cranking out kickstarters like it's going out of style. But I'd REALLY rather that they support the two games that I DID back... The One Ring and T2K... before I back any of their other K/S efforts.

I expect they're doing 2 things --

• prioritizing which game-lines get supplements -- how many & how often -- based on their understandings of the respective markets/niches.
• relying (as Chaosium often does) on what projects their stable of freelancers find inspirational, and pitch to them.

 

[svensson]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

I expect they're doing 2 things --

• prioritizing which game-lines get supplements -- how many & how often -- based on their understandings of the respective markets/niches.
• relying (as Chaosium often does) on what projects their stable of freelancers find inspirational, and pitch to them.

 

From where I'm looking at it, it seems to be more a 'get a franchise IP on the street' sort of thing. Pushing a Bladerunner K/S instead of getting promised support for The One Ring out. It took them over a year after The One Ring's print K/S shipped to get one of the stretch goals out to the public, for example.

[g33k]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:05 PM, svensson said:

... It took them over a year after The One Ring's print K/S shipped to get one of the stretch goals out to the public, for example.

As I understand -- as an outside observer, never having been involved in *ANY* aspect of KS-production (besides being a customer, and thus "involved" in funding) -- the "best practices" rule of thumb is to have your core product ready to roll before even launching the KS.  For a RPG book:  that's having the ms. and art complete, and layout in late stages with a process/person that has all the kinks worked-out.

For "stretch goals" -- the overly-ambitious ones can kill a KS project dead.  But they're generally just a glimmer in the creatives' eye... not a "product" per se, just an idea. "Over a year" sounds to me like a normal/reasonable/expected time to bring a RPG book to market (I just looked at the KS-project... whoa, *THIRTY* different stretch-goals!!!   That by itself sounds like a bit of a logistics nightmare!  You don't say which SG's were most problematic, and it's unclear what some of them are; but several look like they could be books, so ... ) .

[peterb]

Dragonsbane is a translation of the newest iteration of the Swedish RPG "Drakar & Demoner" (DoD). The first edition of DoD was a translation of he 1980 Basic Roleplaying booklet and Magic World (a part of the World of Wonder product) and it was produced under license from Chaosium. If you read DoD v.1 side by side with the 1980 Basic Roleplaying booklet and Magic World you'll notice that it's almost a direct translation, even the texts disposition is the same. Later editions dropped the d100 in favor of rolling under a threshold using a d20, it also dropped the license statement. So DoD is very much a part of the BRP family of games, a game that dominated the Swedish RPG market for almost 20 years, replacing D&D as the #1 game.

[AndreasDavour]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:05 AM, svensson said:

From where I'm looking at it, it seems to be more a 'get a franchise IP on the street' sort of thing. Pushing a Bladerunner K/S instead of getting promised support for The One Ring out. It took them over a year after The One Ring's print K/S shipped to get one of the stretch goals out to the public, for example.

Not to try to be snarky, but I think you need to tell FL that. They probably want to hear what people are dissatisfied with.

[svensson]

3 hours ago, AndreasDavour said:

Not to try to be snarky, but I think you need to tell FL that. They probably want to hear what people are dissatisfied with.

Not snarky at all. I already did tell them.

[Ravenheart87]

In case someone wants to know what's going on with the game: I wrote a preview of the latest beta version.

[DreadDomain]

8 hours ago, Ravenheart87 said:

In case someone wants to know what's going on with the game: I wrote a preview of the latest beta version.

Thanks for the review, I thought it was pretty good (it helps that I happen to agree to most, maybe even all, your points.

[Numtini]

On 9/15/2022 at 3:44 PM, svensson said:

I DID back their Twilight 2000 K/S, and I'm very satisfied with the product I got, but they have released ZERO support for it since the original boxed set was delivered.

Very late to the party, and they've since released Urban Operations, but they were holding off on releases out of respect for the war.

Back to the topic, for me DoD feels like a d100 game in most ways other than not using a d100, and I feel like it hits a real sweet spot for non-Glorantha adventures. I suspect it will not hit that spot for most people as it's a little more mystical/legendary than most of the D&D-ish players are looking for. But after we finish Masks of Nyarlathotep, which we've been at for over two years, I need a palate cleanser and I'm planning to run Alien, T2k, Vaesen, and DoD one-shots.

[Questbird]

On 9/17/2022 at 8:05 AM, svensson said:

From where I'm looking at it, it seems to be more a 'get a franchise IP on the street' sort of thing. Pushing a Bladerunner K/S instead of getting promised support for The One Ring out. It took them over a year after The One Ring's print K/S shipped to get one of the stretch goals out to the public, for example.

 

The Blade Runner game does look very good though (I was a backer, but not of One Ring or, so far, of Dragonbane/Drakar Och Demoner).

[smiorgan]

I haven't read the whole of the Dragonbane pdfs but so far I like what I am seeing. The BRP heritage is still pretty evident. You can still see it came out of an adaptation of the original Magic World.

It also makes me think what the later Elric! based Magic World could have been with consistent color artwork and a more developed mini-setting with scenarios.

Of course there are also Fria Ligan's mechanical innovations. The one I'm particularly fond of is monster attacks. Encumbrance rules are also elegant. The D&D5 like bits are nothing to write home about and the pushing rolls and initiative mechanics leave me on the fence.

 

 

[MacDhomnuill]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:17 AM, smiorgan said:

I haven't read the whole of the Dragonbane pdfs but so far I like what I am seeing. The BRP heritage is still pretty evident. You can still see it came out of an adaptation of the original Magic World.

It also makes me think what the later Elric! based Magic World could have been with consistent color artwork and a more developed mini-setting with scenarios.

Of course there are also Fria Ligan's mechanical innovations. The one I'm particularly fond of is monster attacks. Encumbrance rules are also elegant. The D&D5 like bits are nothing to write home about and the pushing rolls and initiative mechanics leave me on the fence.

 

 

I like the system quite a bit, my main gripe is opposed rolls being lowest wins vs the more realistic MOS or blackjack style. I agree with the pushing rolls being meh but the use of advantage/disadvantage to replace almost all die roll modifiers makes for a smoother playing game. 

[smiorgan]

2 hours ago, MacDhomnuill said:

I like the system quite a bit, my main gripe is opposed rolls being lowest wins vs the more realistic MOS or blackjack style. 

Opposed rolls are absolutely terrible. If I get to run it I'm going to houserule this bit.

[Ian Absentia]

12 hours ago, smiorgan said:

Opposed rolls are absolutely terrible. If I get to run it I'm going to houserule this bit.

Opposed rolls in general?  Or as applied in Dragonbane?

!i!

Edited March 31, 2023 by Ian Absentia

[narsilion]

From my experience, opposed roll in dragonbane is ok. As you use multiple advantage dice for bonuses, rules award the one with more bonuses.

This way you save the main testing rule: "roll D20, the lower, the better", with special results of 1 (dragons) and 20s (demons). Its "Drakar och Demoner" after all 😄

[smiorgan]

Update: I've played Dragonbane solo this summer and it was good fun. I like the system quite a bit. The BRP heritage remains clear. Combat is deadly and fun. Sadly, I have not had the occasion to run it for my players yet.

 

 

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