Playable Cults / Races

[Squaredeal Sten]

"Learn".

On the other hand in my Glorantha, we have a (male) Chalana Arroy who joined the cult during play. So he has Orlanth / farmer skill history from his youth / character generation and a little experience.  He is not currently learning combat skills, but has used the old skill levels vs. Undead.  And I see no reason he couldn't parry with a staff although his staff skill is beginner level.

[ffilz]

There was this from an old Q&A (Wyrms Footnotes #2 Advice from Rurik - Steve Perrin):

Cults of Prax says that a Chalana Arroy cultist can't learn a combat skill. Could she learn one through experience assuming that she was fighting to save someone's life?

 

Yes.

 

And this one from Wyrms Footnotes #13:

 

Are Chalana Arroy worshippers allowed to kill chaos creatures or aid in the killing of them?

 

The Chalana Array cult does allow the killing of Undead , though their attitudes about chaos are mixed. Orthodox healers often refuse any weapons-wielding at any price (even against Undead) . Practical healers might not be so rigid.

 

And in the "we didn't read Cults of Prax very carefully or consider things" department, the Chalana Arroy rune levels in Rune Masters all have combat skills in the 60% to 80% range... Attack and parry...

 

Personally this absolutism about violence is part of why I no longer allow Chalana Arroy PCs. I just can't see someone who won't even learn to parry with their walking stick being willing to stand by while their companions engage in combat. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean turning away so you're not actually watching your companions slaughter the trollkin...

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

However I agree about your point, I would allow a chalana cultist to parry or disarm (so to be trained). I would just add some more "fundamentalist" school/sect/subcult  inside the cult, forbidding it,  "offer the other cheek " is better than "block the attack"

Just to argue the point (not that I don't agree with you to some extent), what happens on a crit or special parry? Do you just ignore the damaging bits?

Or, if they Fumble, would you incorporate a "hit attacker, doing damage", as a counter to the lack of damaging parries?

Wouldn't "harm intelligent beings" include themselves? And, of course, there's the fun of "Hit nearest ally".

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

However I agree about your point, I would allow a chalana cultist to parry or disarm (so to be trained). I would just add some more "fundamentalist" school/sect/subcult  inside the cult, forbidding it,  "offer the other cheek " is better than "block the attack"

Ooops - ye olde double en'postage.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Kloster]

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It doesn't contradict it, it builds on and extends it. Feel free to ignore it in your game though if it doesn't fit your vision of Glorantha

This is what I do.

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

and I'm sure it varies according to region and subcult.

I feel the same.

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

and I'm sure it varies according to region and subcult.

Them's fightin' words!

(well, usually.... maybe they just hurl insults at each other... but not too harsh, obviously!)

 

Well, seriously.... this would depend on whether you think CA herself would be tolerant of this, or whether it's not her personal imposition, but that of the cult.

[French Desperate WindChild]

36 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just to argue the point (not that I don't agree with you to some extent), what happens on a crit or special parry? Do you just ignore the damaging bits?

Or, if they Fumble, would you incorporate a "hit attacker, doing damage", as a counter to the lack of damaging parries?

Wouldn't "harm intelligent beings" include themselves? And, of course, there's the fun of "Hit nearest ally".

 

you decided to use a weapon, a weapon that some of your fundamentalist peers forbid, and even if you didn't hope the result, you harmed someone. manage it now

 

however I would not say that a successful crit or special should add dammage when you are trying to avoid it, in my opinion a special / crit provides a better result than what you expect. If your intent is not to  harm, your crit will not harm.

Same with a fumble, your intent is not to harm, your crit may harm

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just to argue the point (not that I don't agree with you to some extent), what happens on a crit or special parry? Do you just ignore the damaging bits?

I might allow a second skill roll to avoid doing damage to the attacker. Much harder when parrying a natural weapon attack though, how do you put a stick in the way of a troll's claws or scorpion man's stinger without risking hurting it? That would need a subsequent special success to avoid harming. Worst case scenario, you call for Divine Intervention to prevent the harm.

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or, if they Fumble, would you incorporate a "hit attacker, doing damage", as a counter to the lack of damaging parries?

Wouldn't "harm intelligent beings" include themselves? And, of course, there's the fun of "Hit nearest ally".

All of those are potentially career-ending mistakes. Spirits of Reprisal all around. Adventure-to-atone ensues.

Edited September 27, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Jeff]

You are welcome to do whatever you want in your Glorantha. However, in canon lay members and initiates of Chalana Arroy are forbidden from learning combat skills and take an oath against harming an intelligent being. They do not carry weapons - after all, who would harm an initiate of Chalana Arroy? 

Personally I find Chalana Arroy to be a great player character cult, and we've had many Chalana Arroy initiates in our parties over the years. 

[JRE]

It also makes an excellent NPC reinforcement for a small player group. They play themselves and will interfere little with player actions. I usually have them use Sleep only when they are attacked (usually unintelligent animals or beings of Chaos), or the party is really against the wall, as that is bound to create conflict as the sleeping foes are under their protection. 

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

You are welcome to do whatever you want in your Glorantha. However, in canon lay members and initiates of Chalana Arroy are forbidden from learning combat skills and take an oath against harming an intelligent being. They do not carry weapons - after all, who would harm an initiate of Chalana Arroy? 

Blocking the strike that is coming for you, or that is coming for those under your care, is not harming the protagonist, it's protecting yourself, or your charge.

Who would harm them?

Broo

Mostali? After all they are not "theists", and may not have the same prohibition as they simply see the "thing in my path preventing me from fixing the Machine".

Humans, who might, in the heat of combat, not notice that the person they just attacked was a Chalana Arroy follower. 

And then, of course, there are beasties who don't care at all.

SDLeary

Edited September 27, 2022 by SDLeary

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Blocking the strike that is coming for you, or that is coming for those under your care, is not harming the protagonist, it's protecting yourself, or your charge.

Who would harm them?

Broo

Mostali? After all they are not "theists", and may not have the same prohibition as they simply see the "thing in my path preventing me from fixing the Machine".

Humans, who might, in the heat of combat, not notice that the person they just attacked was a Chalana Arroy follower. 

And then, of course, there are beasties who don't care at all.

SDLeary

and rocks, coconuts and other dangers a shield may block 🙂

 

[g33k]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just to argue the point (not that I don't agree with you to some extent), what happens on a crit or special parry? Do you just ignore the damaging bits?

Or, if they Fumble, would you incorporate a "hit attacker, doing damage", as a counter to the lack of damaging parries?

...

And, of course, there's the fun of "Hit nearest ally".

This is why, in my Glorantha,  "no combat skills; not even defensive, parry-only, etc"  is the mainstream CA position.

"Accidents will happen" is a truism.
Training in any combat is therefore making a statement:  "I have decided that occasionally harming others is acceptable."

Mainstream CA disagrees.
 

(That said, I agree that fighters "trying not to hurt" their opponent will successfully not-hurt them on a Critical Hit (i.e. they do extra-well in what they want to do), likely disarming, knocking-back, etc, as alternative "Critical" effects)... but a Fumble *does* include the chance of harming their foe)

Edited September 28, 2022 by g33k

[ffilz]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

You are welcome to do whatever you want in your Glorantha. However, in canon lay members and initiates of Chalana Arroy are forbidden from learning combat skills and take an oath against harming an intelligent being. They do not carry weapons - after all, who would harm an initiate of Chalana Arroy? 

Personally I find Chalana Arroy to be a great player character cult, and we've had many Chalana Arroy initiates in our parties over the years. 

I'd love to hear more about PC Chalana Arroy. What sorts of adventures did the PCs participate in?

It IS worth noting that my RQ campaigns tend more to the murder hobo side of things and are grounded in old school play and celebrate the early RQ adventures. Though they aren't as uncaring as early D&D adventurers tended to be. The world does matter. But given that play style, Chalana Arroy just doesn't fit for me as adventurers.

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, ffilz said:

Chalana Arroy just doesn't fit for me as adventurers.

From time to time one of our players choose to play a Chalana Arroy. most find it to be fun ... for a while, but it gets borring really fast as they tend to be very one dimensional. Except for that one Chalana Arroy Illuminated Ogre. That did not end well.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Godlearner
added

[g33k]

I'm working on a healer PC concept.

I keep waffling back and forth between CA, and a CA-wannabe Ernaldan healer.

Dual-wields shields... not to *actively* parry with, just to cower behind, take cover from massed missile-fire, protect her patients, etc.  Might-maybe-kinda-almost fit, under a lenient CA High Prestess?

Or maybe the "wannabe" (or washout) is just a better fit.

But, toss a pair of infinite-AP Earth Shield's onto those, and squint the right way...
... and it looks like a darned effective battlefield medic.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, ffilz said:

I'd love to hear more about PC Chalana Arroy. What sorts of adventures did the PCs participate in?

It IS worth noting that my RQ campaigns tend more to the murder hobo side of things and are grounded in old school play and celebrate the early RQ adventures. Though they aren't as uncaring as early D&D adventurers tended to be. The world does matter. But given that play style, Chalana Arroy just doesn't fit for me as adventurers.

Here's a concept for you...

As you know, the "Detect <X>" spell has, in theory / in principle, a huge number of potential subjects that can be detected, generally one subject per; there's "detect silver" and "detect gold" &c (but no "detect precious metals" (or say rather, such a spell is rare and... errr... treasured.  (sorry notsorry)).

There's also "Detect Enemies."  Odd one, that.  Does a complex evaluation of everyone's mental state... gadzooks!  Hits humans, trolls, elves... there's some argument as to whether a predator is an "enemy" or not (ygmv).

What if a CA could find a "Detect Redeemable" spell?  That is, show the CA who was feeling moral or ethical qualms about their villainous way of life?  Not merely regret in the moment (as they are losing a fight), but that spiritual openness to being redeemed... to being healed, and reconciled to society.  😀

"Bingo!" sez the CA.  Nails them with the Sleep spell, places them under the Protection of the Goddess.  Now, of course, they need to figure out HOW to redeem the person.  Were their qualms based upon the excesses of their companions?  Was it their own outsized pain & need for revenge, slowly fading in the face of the pain they inflicted?  Or...?

Is the prisoner open to deep personal discussions, with a stranger?  Are they even willing to admit to themselves how close they are to breaking with their villainous ways?

How will the CA achieve the healing?

Edited September 28, 2022 by g33k

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, ffilz said:

I'd love to hear more about PC Chalana Arroy. What sorts of adventures did the PCs participate in?

well i have definitly another game than you but your request is very interesting even for anti murder hobo side 🙂

day after day, I imagine CA cultists as some monks/nuns in closed monastry (=temple) inside city or not

so yes here you don't need to protect yourself by any way:

your walls protect you from the "natural dangers" ( sharks, and even more dangerous  : coconuts), and  city or clan guards against "sentient dangers" (broos, or anyone who doesn't have the taboo protecting CA)

 

in that case, I see only those who have some temptation to become a martyr (or those who have enough guards and servants to avoid any danger) to go outside the temple

so yes it would be interesting to see / read some play with CA PC as I am unable to see how it can work (of course if GM protects the CA pc it is less interesting)

Or does it mean that one player must decide to be the "shield" of the CA devotee, a huge constraint for a player, isn't it?

 

Of course CA cultist can do more than just heal (if your campaign is not only about battle), but this taboo to not be able to protect herself (just protect) seems to me so hard !

 

Note that I don't challenge the canon (and for me the canon is rqg cult description now, even if  I have not yet the book 😛 ) just I don't see how it can work in a long campaign

[JRE]

As I said my CA characters are NPC reinforcments. Usually it is an initiate with quite good healing and the PCs take oaths to defend them. I play with only two PCs, so there are usually other minor NPCs around (teamster/drover with the mule team, a hired guard, usually one of the best students of the Humakti, and a manservant for the LM/Issaries writer. The CA initiate is supported by an attendant as well, load carrier and clothes washer (back to the Soap thread, and how hard it is to keep those white robes white). 

The CA comes usually when it is a temple or clan matter, or if they are going to face disease (when they have to use one of their precious favor cards). When playing "A Tale to Tell" a CA temple guard came with the healer, a bison Waha initiate and Khan son, paying off his debt after a Ressurrection, as all know broo do not respect the white robes. He took his duty to defend the white woman very seriously, and was wounded and diseased but survived. To keep the focus on the players, the bison did not speak with the Lunars, as part of his oath to CA of keeping the peace.

They do not slow down combat, as they usually watch for anyone that may need them without acting. They avoid most discussions except to propose non-violent solutions. She befuddles chaos critters if at full MP, and sleeps humans that do not seem too powerful or wicked. So far the players have respected her choice to save those affected by Sleep. A couple even brought ransom, which is better than what happens when hit by an arbalest with poisoned sorcerous bolts. Some sages are quite bloody minded.

Never had a CA player, but I have played with similar characters in other games, In our campaign of Warhammer's The Enemy Within, our halfling doctor/apothecary/alchemist was very proud that the only person he had killed was a patient killed by a fumble, and never increased his weapon skill. He tried at the beginning to use a sling, but almost the whole epic campaign his only weapon was a scalpel. He was the party leader and Face, so he had plenty to do in non combat encounters, and in combat he had the time to give orders while cowering behind any available cover, except when someone was wounded. The GM considered that an unarmed, almost unarmoured halfling was ignored while you had a guy in plate armor with a two handed sword swinging around.

With some GM support and the right player it is a good character concept.

Edited September 28, 2022 by JRE

[svensson]

If Chalana Arroy Healers are present in a clan's fyrd, they're going to have to defend themselves at some point... even if it's just from a missile barrage.

And who would hurt a White Healer? Anybody with a Fanaticism or Berserk spell on them, that's who. And trolls, and broo, and dragonewts and beasts and Undead and a host of other Very Nasty Things.

I have no problem with a Healer learning to use a staff if they don't attack with it. As for the 'can't train it', my ruling on that would be that the skill would start at base + Manipulation bonus and must be learned through skill checks [aka practice].

None of that violates the spirit of the restrictions on Healers

Edited September 28, 2022 by svensson

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

I have no problem with a Healer learning to use a staff if they don't attack with it. As for the 'can't train it', my ruling on that would be that the skill would start base + Manipulation bonus and must be learned through skill checks [aka practice].

None of that violates the spirit of the restrictions on Healers

This is exactly how I read and play it. No training, no learning, but ok for experience.

[French Desperate WindChild]

an idea: maybe the taboo is not to train but to use

you must not "touch" a shield, a spear, etc... because it is taboo : it is weapon (so of course, in this case, you cannot train, gain experience, etc...)

 

but as I said, I m not fond of it, maybe because I don't see how to play it (but I may change... After all I did not imagine that playing a Ty Kora Tek initiate may be usefull in a standard campain)

[Shiningbrow]

Actually, this restriction is one that I 98% agree with - with the one exception being able to carry a shield to protect from missile fire.

This recent discussion has just reminded me of Journey to the West (aka, the Monkey King) of Chinese/Buddhist mythology. The priest Sanzang/Tripitaka (Chinese/indian name) was a complete pacifist, which often made things quite difficult, and had even been taken hostage on a number of occasions - with zero resistance. The priest also stopped Monkey & co. from being violent from time to time as well.

Good amusing bit of telly if you haven't seen it. I've really only seen the Japanese 1970's version growing up as a kid. The local Chinese variety just misses it for me.... (but, what would I know - right???)

[svensson]

I'm fine with the idea that White Healer can use a shield to parry [and protect patients] with, but with two caveats:

a] They begin the skill at base + Manipulation bonus, just as with Staff [WITHOUT any skill bonus for Homeland], and

b] Certain First Aid skill functions require two hands, and it's reasonable to presume that certain magical spells need two hands as well.

All this being said, a Sartarite or Esrolian war band might assign the healers [all the healing contingent, White Healers, Ernaldans, whomever] inexperienced youngsters to be shield-bearers and absolute last line of defense for the wounded. It would be an honorable assignment that would give the new initiates some campaign experience and seasoning without excessive risk.

[ffilz]

13 hours ago, g33k said:

Here's a concept for you...

As you know, the "Detect <X>" spell has, in theory / in principle, a huge number of potential subjects that can be detected, generally one subject per; there's "detect silver" and "detect gold" &c (but no "detect precious metals" (or say rather, such a spell is rare and... errr... treasured.  (sorry notsorry)).

There's also "Detect Enemies."  Odd one, that.  Does a complex evaluation of everyone's mental state... gadzooks!  Hits humans, trolls, elves... there's some argument as to whether a predator is an "enemy" or not (ygmv).

What if a CA could find a "Detect Redeemable" spell?  That is, show the CA who was feeling moral or ethical qualms about their villainous way of life?  Not merely regret in the moment (as they are losing a fight), but that spiritual openness to being redeemed... to being healed, and reconciled to society.  😀

"Bingo!" sez the CA.  Nails them with the Sleep spell, places them under the Protection of the Goddess.  Now, of course, they need to figure out HOW to redeem the person.  Were their qualms based upon the excesses of their companions?  Was it their own outsized pain & need for revenge, slowly fading in the face of the pain they inflicted?  Or...?

Is the prisoner open to deep personal discussions, with a stranger?  Are they even willing to admit to themselves how close they are to breaking with their villainous ways?

How will the CA achieve the healing?

Hmm, that would be interesting as it gives a motivation for the CA to join an adventuring party, not just to heal the adventurers, but to accept the practicality that fighting is going to happen, but if the CA can save some souls, then their presence in an adventuring party improves the net balance.