Middle Earth conversion

[Mugen]

11 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

That said, I can see someone looking at their copy of RQG and saying, "You know, I should be able to do something with this book, but I don't really get the setting..."  A lament not specific to RQG.

!i!

That's exactly why I created my own homebrew world in the 90s. I loved the system, but never managed to do grasp Glorantha as a RPG setting.

[Ian Absentia]

Right, which is why I think the answer to the question of "Why use RQG?" is because "It's what I have in my hands, and I like it."  So, for Middle Earth:

• Selectively carve away the magic systems.  These are largely NPC options.
• Download a copy of the KAP character sheet to reverse-engineer the Rune Inspirations to resemble Personality Traits.
• Don't worry about super-detailed Homelands or family histories, unless you're interested in them as an intellectual exercise.  Use Homeland Base Passions (p.27) and Skipping the Family History (p.29).  Focus on the basics for each of the very few Middle Earth "homelands".
• Combat will no longer be overwhelmed by magical pumping, though Passions and Inspirations will still hold sway.  If anything, this should help combat run faster and more smoothly.
• Plenty of the creatures in the Glorantha Bestiary have Middle Earth counterparts if you ignore most of the flavor text.  Elves and dwarfs are pretty much elves and dwarves.  Tusk Riders and trollkin are your common grades of orcs/goblins.  Great Trolls/Cave Trolls/small giants are trolls.  Giant spiders will always be giant spiders.

!i!

[Atgxtg]

On 10/3/2022 at 3:08 AM, Soccercalle said:

I think that the system "the One Ring" from Swedish Free League is a quite good engine for Middle-Earth RPGs. But I personally prefer the BRP systems in general. And I like that Glorantha is not a setting that is so much good vs evil. Its more magic in Glorantha than in Middle-Earth, but it is still much more realistic.

I agree. I liked the earlier edition from C7 as well. IMO The One Ring captures the fell of Middle Earth better than any of the other games that have tackled the setting. It would certainly be something I would lean into if trying to run Middle Earth in RQ/BRP too. The game does a great job of combining the  homespun, down to earth aspect of Middle Earth, with the more fantatical elements. 

[Atgxtg]

33 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Right, which is why I think the answer to the question of "Why use RQG?" is because "It's what I have in my hands, and I like it."  So, for Middle Earth:

Good reason. 

33 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

• Selectively carve away the magic systems.  These are largely NPC options.

I think this could mostly be covered by tossing out the Rune abilities that came with RQG. RQ Spirirt/Battle Magic, Rune/Divine Magic and Sorcery work out okay functionally. 

 

33 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

 

• Download a copy of the KAP character sheet to reverse-engineer the Rune Inspirations to resemble Personality Traits.

Maybe. It might be better just to ignore Rune inspriations and instead give some trait options based upon culture. That's what The One Ring does with Traits and it helps to capture the fell of the various cultures.

 

33 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

• Don't worry about super-detailed Homelands or family histories, unless you're interested in them as an intellectual exercise.  Use Homeland Base Passions (p.27) and Skipping the Family History (p.29).  Focus on the basics for each of the very few Middle Earth "homelands".

You kinda lose some of the charm of the setting that way. As Middle Earth is a setting with a detailed and extensive timeline, I think it would be better to redo the family history tables to reflect the setting. It would be great to be able to tie the PCs to the great battles and events of the age. 

33 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

• Combat will no longer be overwhelmed by magical pumping, though Passions and Inspirations will still hold sway.  If anything, this should help combat run faster and more smoothly.

I think that is mostly true. It worth remembering though that there are those who use magic of some sort in the setting as well as weapons with heroic/magic properties. A GM would need to have some idea of how to handle the Witch King of Angmar and such.

33 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

• Plenty of the creatures in the Glorantha Bestiary have Middle Earth counterparts if you ignore most of the flavor text.  Elves and dwarfs are pretty much elves and dwarves.  Tusk Riders and trollkin are your common grades of orcs/goblins.  Great Trolls/Cave Trolls/small giants are trolls.  Giant spiders will always be giant spiders.

!i!

Yes, the original Magic World from Worlds of Wonder did just that, using the Gloranthan species as the base templates for generic FRPG elves, dwarves, etc. But the species of Middle Earth and not quite the same as their generic FRPG counterparts. For instance, Elves in Middle Earth, especially the Calaequendi, are tall, taller than most men and so would have a higher SIZ that the typical RQ Elf.

So to do the setting justice a GM should adapt the system to the setting, which is pretty much the approach Chaosium used in the past for game such as Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, ElfQuest, etc.  

 

BTW, on a related note I do have some Middle Earth species writeups for RQ3 that I did up back in the 90s. It's not RQG, was a first or second draft,  is about 30 years old, has some errors in it, was supposed to be modified with some rule changes that got left of the hard drive of an Atari ST, but they might be of some use. I think I still have the weapon crafting rules that went with it, too. I could post or upload it, assuming I could find it. I think I sent it to someone on the forums a couple of years ago. 

 

[Ian Absentia]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

You kinda lose some of the charm of the setting that way [ignoring Family Histories]. As Middle Earth is a setting with a detailed and extensive timeline, I think it would be better to redo the family history tables to reflect the setting. It would be great to be able to tie the PCs to the great battles and events of the age. 

I'll agree with you, provisionally, which is why I suggest that if you enjoy them as an intellectual exercise one should have at 'em.  But if I've seen one major impediment to people playing the characters that they want in RQG, it's the pre-play Homelands/Family Histories mini-game.  If it's not already published, it's a lot of work to come up with one of your own.  I recommend that players get on in there and play, and not worry so much about canonical timelines.

!i!

[Eff]

15 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

I'll agree with you, provisionally, which is why I suggest that if you enjoy them as an intellectual exercise one should have at 'em.  But if I've seen one major impediment to people playing the characters that they want in RQG, it's the pre-play Homelands/Family Histories mini-game.  If it's not already published, it's a lot of work to come up with one of your own.  I recommend that players get on in there and play, and not worry so much about canonical timelines.

!i!

And because Middle-Earth's history is significantly sparser and less sociological than Glorantha's, I think putting together a serious timeline like the RQG family history would involve significantly more invention. If you're making someone from Bree in a game set during the time period of TOR (between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings), what events would they reasonably have been involved with in Eriador that could be found in the appendix timelines? Let alone for someone from a much less detailed area like the Woodmen or Rohan or dwarf communities not under the Lonely Mountain? 

If I wanted to have that kind of feel, I think I'd adapt it much more abstractly- a set of questions which are more about the outlook your character has from interacting with Middle-Earth. Perhaps a brief lifepath system that asks whether your Bree character interacts more with the Shire, with Rangers, "with elves" (probably via book-learning more than via going out and gatecrashing dinners at the Grey Havens), with dwarves, with trolls and giants, with orcs (i.e. via traveling in dangerous territory!), or mostly with Bree itself. Maybe with options for "the land" as well, to emphasize the almost animistic landscape of Middle-Earth. And then from there you have the kinds of plot points and worldview options that RQG family history gives you. 

[SDLeary]

31 minutes ago, Eff said:

And because Middle-Earth's history is significantly sparser and less sociological than Glorantha's, I think putting together a serious timeline like the RQG family history would involve significantly more invention. If you're making someone from Bree in a game set during the time period of TOR (between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings), what events would they reasonably have been involved with in Eriador that could be found in the appendix timelines? Let alone for someone from a much less detailed area like the Woodmen or Rohan or dwarf communities not under the Lonely Mountain? 

And then on the other end, you could have characters that have been around for thousands of years, and have the "background from hell" if you tried to map it out.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

10 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

I'll agree with you, provisionally, which is why I suggest that if you enjoy them as an intellectual exercise one should have at 'em.  But if I've seen one major impediment to people playing the characters that they want in RQG, it's the pre-play Homelands/Family Histories mini-game.

Yeah, Pendragon is very similar (probably because it was used as inspiration for RQG). Doing up Family History Tables could be a chore (I did just that for my last Pendragon campaign, which pushed the starting date back to around 410), but I think with Middle Earth it won't be as bad to set up, as Tolkien wrote up extensive timelines that would be of great help.  

10 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

  If it's not already published, it's a lot of work to come up with one of your own. 

Yes, but that is going to be the case anyway. By running Middle Earth with RQG (or pretty much any RPG that hasn't borrowed heavily from Tolkien) a GM is going to have to do a lot of work to make the game fit the setting. 

10 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

I recommend that players get on in there and play, and not worry so much about canonical timelines.

!i!

But then they lose out on the history and details that make the setting appealing in the first place. A GM can't really get away with playing fast and loose with the One Ring, or the major characters. A GM either has to embrace the lore, or set the campaign away from the people and events that made people want to game there. Now if a GM can get the players to write up characters from one area/culture they can start small, and  won't need to go into a lot of detail about everything (much like what Tolkien did by using Hobbits as the main characters and making everyone else strangers), but they will need something to act as a foundation. Otherwise the campaign will just fell like yet another generic fantasy game. I've seen more than one gamer drop back into D&D mode while playing in Middle Earth. 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Right, which is why I think the answer to the question of "Why use RQG?" is because "It's what I have in my hands, and I like it."

Exactly! Hence the thread. (granted, a lot of my love of RQ is due to Glorantha, but I also like the system itself. I think I'm liking/preferring RQG over previous editions.)

Given how long a single combat can take between relative equals, I can understand the hugely long battles mentioned between Balrogs and Gandalf/Glorfindel etc actually happening using a RQ system (although, 1 hit would make a world of difference).

[Mugen]

13 hours ago, Eff said:

And because Middle-Earth's history is significantly sparser and less sociological than Glorantha's, I think putting together a serious timeline like the RQG family history would involve significantly more invention. If you're making someone from Bree in a game set during the time period of TOR (between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings), what events would they reasonably have been involved with in Eriador that could be found in the appendix timelines? Let alone for someone from a much less detailed area like the Woodmen or Rohan or dwarf communities not under the Lonely Mountain? 

Plus, a family Timeline for a Noldor would be extremely different from a Dunlending's.

Elf :

-You don't have a grand father.

-Your father fought against morgoth 6000 years ago 

Human :

-Your grand father was a farmer 40 years ago.

-Your father was a farmer 20 years ago.

Which inevitably raises the question of Elf PCs...

Edited October 6, 2022 by Mugen

[smiorgan]

I'm pretty sure a RQG adaptation for Middle Earth can work and as a player I would totally play it. As a GM I'm simply too lazy to do the work especially when you have The One Ring and Adventures in Middle Earth for 5e. They both work fine for me.

For a Silmarillion/ Children of Hurin game I'd check "Age of Shadows" for Open Quest. It's really Beleriand with the serial numbers filed off.

 

[Ian Absentia]

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

But then they lose out on the history and details that make the setting appealing in the first place.

We've read the books, haven't we?  Or at least watched the movies and/or television series?

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I've seen more than one gamer drop back into D&D mode while playing in Middle Earth. 

I've seen more than one RQG character never get through the Homeland/Family History process.

I just reject the idea that one is missing out on a lot by moving past just sitting there thinking about playing.

!i!

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Ian Absentia

[Eff]

8 hours ago, Mugen said:

Plus, a family Timeline for a Noldor would be extremely different from a Dunlending's.

Elf :

-You don't have a grand father.

-Your father fought against morgoth 6000 years ago 

Human :

-Your grand father was a farmer 40 years ago.

-Your father was a farmer 20 years ago.

Which inevitably raises the question of Elf PCs...

I'm not sure how best you could make elf PCs in a Middle-Earth game using BRP, but I think one possible approach would be that the spiritual sensitivity of elves renders them much more open to the world and baleful influences with it, such that they have greater skills but concurrently face greater challenges- where a human or hobbit might feel uneasy about a particular place, and a dwarf might comment on its hostile mood, an elf might well have to contend directly with the hostile spirit of the place to stay there. Of course, this makes elves an interesting addition to a party, but I think that in any Middle-Earth game you need to directly address elves and dwarves and humans and hobbits and how they have different but related struggles as part of explaining how to play and run the game. So that's just something to fold in there. 

Now, the roguelike Sil just uses humans/edain as a challenge mode, with average human stats set at 0 and elf and dwarf stats going up from there (with Noldor stronger than Sindar or dwarves). But playing a Silmarillion kind of game is different, although there's some promise in a flashback/forward-style game where your ancient elf PCs every so often go back to particular moments back in the day where their current elven mopiness had its origin...

[Darius West]

On 10/1/2022 at 5:14 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Hi all.

One of my mates is a huge Burning Wheel fan, and has suggested that BW is a great way to tell the stories of Tolkien's Second Age - much better than any other RPG system. He thinks so because of the way that the system is designed around character motivations and how they deal with the success or failures of those (and not so much about skills, abilities, or magic). He then referenced CoC's insanity system as a good way to represent joy, sorrow, suffering, etc...

So, I thought I'd bring the question to here.

Could RQ do justice to the sorts of stories that Tolkien (and other good) authors write? Make the players really feel?

And. while I'm at it, how  would stats & skills look for the various races? Mostali would be a clean swap for stats, I suppose. As would most humans...

What would you do with magic?

It wouldn't be a Bronze Age any more (although, that's a bit irrelevant).

I just don't think Middle Earth Conversion therapy will work on Glorantha 😱😝.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Darius West

[Mugen]

14 hours ago, Eff said:

Of course, this makes elves an interesting addition to a party, but I think that in any Middle-Earth game you need to directly address elves and dwarves and humans and hobbits and how they have different but related struggles as part of explaining how to play and run the game. 

Of course, I never thought it was something unique to RQG.

[Atgxtg]

On 10/6/2022 at 12:04 PM, Ian Absentia said:

We've read the books, haven't we? 

Some of us have. I think about half the people I've gamed over the years have read Lord of the Rings. Few have read much more than that or kep up with the lore. Most of the people I've know who are familar with Lord of the Rings, think Gandalf is a human with magical powers, and do not understand what he really is.

On 10/6/2022 at 12:04 PM, Ian Absentia said:

 

Or at least watched the movies and/or television series?

All the more reason to get things down. There are differences between the books, movies, and TV series. Some of which are very significant

On 10/6/2022 at 12:04 PM, Ian Absentia said:

I've seen more than one RQG character never get through the Homeland/Family History process.

I don't play RQG, so I have to ask-  why? Can PCs die in character generation ala Traveller, or do the players give up in chargen because of excessive backstory? Either way, it would seem to apply to RQG in general, and not just to a Middle Earth adaptation.

On 10/6/2022 at 12:04 PM, Ian Absentia said:

I just reject the idea that one is missing out on a lot by moving past just sitting there thinking about playing.

Then I guess we disagree on this.

I get the idea of wanting to play rather than writing up rules and background, but it's the GM's job to be prepared and prepare the players. There are four RPGs for playing in Middle Earth (MERP, LOTR, TOR, AIME), plus many FRPGs that were heavily influenced by Middle Earth. If someone is in a rush to play then those game exist. But just shoehorning Middle Earth into another game system without really considering how to do so is going to be a disappointing experience. Like all those AD&D supplements where they converted various fantasy and historical settings to AD&D, and they all ended up playing and feeling like AD&D rather than the intended setting. 

If a group is determined to play in Middle Earth using RQG then they are going to have to do the prep work. Sam with any established setting.

 

[Ali the Helering]

Of course, part of the issue with respect to Family Histories is that they record events that have a significant impact upon the PC.  It all depends on what you class as such a significant event.  The Clan Questionnaire made do with 32(?) questions to cover the entirety of Glorantha's myth and history impact on a clan. 

If you produce a Noldor Family History then you simply have to record the major events that would have impact on someone from their specific realm.  Remembering that for very long periods of time nothing happens that needs recording.  Which may be why so many elves look truly bored in the movies.😜

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Remembering that for very long periods of time nothing happens that needs recording.  Which may be why so many elves look truly bored in the movies.😜

But, wouldn't they look really excited, because something has finally happened???

[Ali the Helering]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, wouldn't they look really excited, because something has finally happened???

Yet, as players, haven't we all felt "Oh, not another f***ing quest against an f***ing Dark Lord"?

[Atgxtg]

On 10/8/2022 at 2:13 AM, Ali the Helering said:

If you produce a Noldor Family History then you simply have to record the major events that would have impact on someone from their specific realm.  Remembering that for very long periods of time nothing happens that needs recording.  Which may be why so many elves look truly bored in the movies.😜

LOL! I think that is one of the more telling criticisms of Tolkien. Most events seem to unfold over many many years. I think Tolkien did it to give Middle Earth's history depth. The problem with it though is that it leads to years going by without anyone doing much or coming into contact with other cultures. For instance it appears than no one in Rhoan or Gondor had seen an Elf, and although Arnor fell over a thousand years ago, no new kingdoms of any sort spring up in the time before Aragorn restores Arnor. 

 

Another interesting bit about the family history of elves is that since elves are so long lived, an elven PC might actually have been at some great event years ago, rather than (or in addition to) one or more ancestors. Elrond was at the battle 3000 years ago, where Sauron was struck down.

[Ali the Helering]

56 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Another interesting bit about the family history of elves is that since elves are so long lived, an elven PC might actually have been at some great event years ago, rather than (or in addition to) one or more ancestors. Elrond was at the battle 3000 years ago, where Sauron was struck down.

I have toyed with the idea of character creation along the lines of Nephilim, so that elves gain specific skills at different points within the ages, dependent on the culture and society predominating at the time, and any changes in focus for the character.  

[Atgxtg]

On 10/10/2022 at 5:44 PM, Ali the Helering said:

I have toyed with the idea of character creation along the lines of Nephilim, so that elves gain specific skills at different points within the ages, dependent on the culture and society predominating at the time, and any changes in focus for the character.  

That's rather clever. Tie it in with the previous history stuff and you could break up the backstory into eras/events, what the PC did at the time, and what skills and abilities they picked up. 

[Starcarr]

I wouldn’t use Runequest for Tolkien. Quest Worlds for The Hobbit atmosphere  and Pendragon (adapted) for Silmarillion atmosphere. LOTR is more tricky. 

[whitelaughter]

On 10/3/2022 at 3:08 AM, Ali the Helering said:

  I have read LotR perhaps 38 - 40 times, but the implicit racism makes it harder each time.

Then next time you read it, notice the explicit praise of inter-racial marriages.

Pretty much all of those described! Galadriel is descended from all 3 races of Light Elf, marries a Sindar, their daughter marries a half-elf, who marries a human.

Elrond traces descent from two different races of men and three different races of elves, plus Melian the Maia.

There are two strawman defences of racial purity:

1) Faramir bewails the mingling of his folk with 'lesser' men....only to fall head over heels for a barbarian warrior woman.

2) a claim that marrying a human is beneath an elf...given by our halfelf, Elrond!

Even within the hobbits, Harfoot Sam Gamgee(yes, check, every reference to his skin colour is brown) marries into the local Fallowhide gentry (allowing a blond daughter).

Then the description of Bree, praising the men and hobbits for respecting each other. The friendship of Legolas and Gimli.

-----------------------------

Magic in LotR is actually pretty common. There are lots of references to items in passing; many of the toys at the birthday party are clearly magical. The barrowblades are magical, and forged by Dunedain. The Old Took has magical cuff links from Gandalf. Apparently there are minor rings floating around, though we only see the one Saruman has (possibly having made it himself).

There is a theme that you can't do the same magic twice; Feanor can't duplicate the Silmarils. But the POW cost of Runequest is pretty good for reflecting the cost of magic. Enchantments should be common, actual spells rare.

 

[EDIT] The way to cover Elves is to remember that their race is fading, they're growing weaker. Start them with a base 200% in most skills, but their experience checks are to determine whether their skills go down!

Then elves are deadly, but desperately trying to avoid doing anything with an experience check box. They'll happily use Lores for you, or Alchemy, Read/Write - but you'll need to trigger a Passion to get them to do anything else.

Edited November 12, 2022 by whitelaughter

[NickMiddleton]

If I were to look beyond The One Ring 2nd edition (an exquisitely presented evolution of the first) for gaming in Tolkien’s world, I’d adapt Pendragon for the first age of sun, specifically the stories of the houses of men in Beleriand.

If I wanted something genuinely “Tolkien-esque” in feel and tone but not caught up in the specifics of that work, I’d use Age of Shadows, either RAW or adapted to my tweaked version of Magic World.