Uninitiated characters - how rare are people like Griselda?

[smiorgan]

In the Big Rubble RQ2 book the famous rogue Griselda is not initiated into any cult, being a Lanbril lay member and a Geo's lay member, praying Olrlanth but feeling no particular loyalty to him. Her description comments about that saying that this is "symptomatic of her detachedness". This makes me think that not being initiated into any cult, was already in RQ2 days, regarded at least as uncommon for an expert and competent character like Griselda.

Now, RQG assumes that all PCs start as initiates of a cult. This makers a lot of sense: being initiated ensures a richer interaction with both the mythic and the social world of Glorantha and initiation was in any case the first step towards rune mastery already in the old days. All in all, it looks like more fun.

But what about those who do not commit to any cult?  Those who are irreligious, not very pious, or simply don't like bonds and commitments. Are they very rare in Dragon Pass and Prax? Are they inevitably loners, drifters and outcasts of their communities? Or there is a place in Orlanthi society also for that strange uncle who rarely goes to sacrifice at the temple and who never took the gods too seriously?

In fact, fairly competent non initiated PLAYER characters must have been relatively common in RQ2 days, given that initiation was to some extent competing with other character developments goals in the zero-to-hero trajectory. For instance, none of the pregenerated characters of the Borderlands campaign is initiated. And they are fairly competent fellas about 60-70% with their weapon of choice. 

Would it make sense to have the occasional uninitiated PC in RQG? Or would it simply be unfun and penalizing?

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by smiorgan

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Since RQG made rune spells reusable, an uninitiated PC would be at a huge disadvantage.  You have to really really stretch to come up with any justification.  Or be running an unusual campaign.

[Godlearner]

31 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Since RQG made rune spells reusable, an uninitiated PC would be at a huge disadvantage.

Yeap. Its not even that, but Common spells cover a wide array of magic which would require full CHA  of spirit sells.

[ffilz]

That will be an interesting thing to see how it's handled in the new cults book. Some RQ2 cults are quite hard to make initiate in, Lhankor Mhy being one of the most difficult examples.

[Squaredeal Sten]

So let your player start with a 16 year old, just into adulthood, a lay member of some god's cult.  Let the PC initiate in game when the player feels like it.  Which will probably be soon because that is one of the major paths to advancement, but maybe the character wants to be a shaman and is not a Praxian with access to Waha. And Daka Fal seems to me to be only notionally a god.

That is essentially the Six Seasons in Sartar plan.  And it works for a campaign.

Now, realize all of my players decided to initiate to a cult, though one of them waited for a cult not available in the home village.  Staying a lay member  doesn't seem to work for the aspiring adventurer. For reasons others discussed above.

By the way, we are told that Sartar and maybe Prax are  exceptional places in having the majority of the population initiate to some cult.  Elsewhere on Genertela the median adult is a lay member. 

see

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13494-how-many-lay-member-initiates-in-glorantha/#comment-210493

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/14042-determining-cultic-rank/#comment-220545

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11046-what-is-the-proportion-of-initiates-among-a-population/page/3/#comment-165898

If you really want to play with the concept then locate your campaign in a different place.  How about the West, or maybe Kralorela or even Pamaltela?  Yes you will have to write more of your own adventures.  But Guide to Glorantha offers many other regions.  If you stick with it you might have something to publish.  

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
links added

[smiorgan]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Since RQG made rune spells reusable, an uninitiated PC would be at a huge disadvantage.  You have to really really stretch to come up with any justification.  Or be running an unusual campaign.

Yes, the famous "initiate trap" made initiation a less attractive choice in the short term. Now it reaps huge advantages.

One would need substantial bonuses to skill training to justify the viability of a lay PC. And a pretty unusual campaign setup.

If every other PC is on a mission for god and tribe, the godless PC is not having fun.

Thinking of Griselda, a Lankhmar like campaign set in Pavis or in Refuge would probably work. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by smiorgan

[PhilHibbs]

Griselda is in an unusual situation, she's an outcast from her ancestral homeland (I can't remember if she was born in Pavis or Sartar, but cuturally she's Sartarite-exile). So maybe she feels that Orlanth has failed her family but she doesn't feel the call to any other cult.

Perhaps there are a lot of Sartarite expats in the Pavis area that are the same. So whilst it is unusual in Glorantha, there are local circumstantial reasons why it might happen.

[JRE]

What I think we need is to clarify the status for lapsed initiates. Using the current framework Griselda probably was initiated in her teens (considering her, probably Orlanth / Vinga rather than Ernalda), but stopped paying her tithes, both money and time, and when she arrived in Pavis, with the added problems with Orlanth's cult there, she has not renewed her link with the god. I agree she may feel she cannot rely too much in deities, working mainly on her own. 

As long as the players agree and are willing to generate their own motivations to adventure, that is a game I really like. Cugel-like, rather than Conan, specially as the rune levels and even devout initiates will be more powerful than the characters. I would say RQ3 was more suitable for this kind of games.

My own take is that devout initiates, on their way to Rune levels, are relatively rare, maybe 10-15% of the initiates, though most of the PCs will be there. Others remain as initiates, doing their part but with no further ambitions, and a good number will lapse, usually due to lack of free time, or even excess goods for the temple. So they still attend the high holy day and the Sacred Time ceremonies, but as audience / support rather than actors. In times of need they may be returned to the cult and renew their rune magic, but most of the time they do not have access to it till they renew their status (no POW needed). I would expect each Orlanthi household will make an effort to keep one of each initiate, Orlanth and Ernalda, to keep the blessings and the supoort of the temple, but other members may be free to be less devout.

Otherwise we will have huge numbers of people following the god archetypes rather than being people as we know them.

[svensson]

Griselda IS initiated. Just not in any cults that the locals are familiar with.

OD says in The Complete Griselda that she's fully initiated in both Lanbril and Eurmal the Thief. And she's friendly with most of the other Lightbringers, if not an actual initiate.

Glorantha is a place of LOTS of different archetypes for heroism. In Grizzy's case, it's a very 'Godfather' type arrangement. Muck with her family and she'll go the extra mile and three-quarters to make sure you regret it..... right before you die.

[svensson]

OK, responding to @smiorgan's actual question...

I personally had a lot of fun in the RQ2 days earning my initiation. It can make for a fun campaign as a group of random layabouts who met at a bar [Gimpy's for the WIN!] sort out which deity they'll follow based on their skills and interests.

But you're right, RQG starts the players at a much higher experience level than either RQ2 or RQ3 did. And a large slice of those previous experience percentage points comes from initiation, probably 5% of the total percentage-points-above-starting-values.

HOWEVER, this concept of initiation does have the benefit of being logical in a 'religion as an aspect of culture' sense. Most Earth religions initiate [confirm, baptize, bar mitzvah, whatever] their young people somewhere between the ages of 14 and 18. In the modern world, that's to solidify the young person's religious beliefs before they go out into the big, bad world and find other influences and other ideas. So it makes sense that a Gloranthan young person, whose family are members in good standing of a given cult, would initiate at age 16 and have a body of Rune Points /Spells and spirit magic spells to start with.

But for those people who insist on being outliers... it could be great fun to have a character be from a Daka Fal background but have to earn their way into the local cult [Orlanth, Yelmalio, 7M]... having to pass RP the tests and so forth. I'd LOVE to play a game where a Darkness-friendly Sartarite clan lets my Dark Troll character stay at the tula, take instruction, and eventually initiate into Orlanth. If the campaign runs long enough, being a Dark Troll Wind Lord would be freaking awesome.

Edited October 4, 2022 by svensson

[radmonger]

5 hours ago, svensson said:

OD says in The Complete Griselda that she's fully initiated in both Lanbril and Eurmal the Thief.

As I don't imagine she is a member of a congregation of thieves who go to pray at the thief temple every wild-day, presumably that initiation is to Lanbril as a spirit cult.

As such, it is going to be following the shamanic (especially Praxian) mindset of pragmatism. It's a thing you do to get the magic you need to survive, not a foundational part of your mindset or morality. So the modern analogy would not be going to church every Sunday, but buying an iPhone from a shop. In rules terms that might well be joining the cult of Apple to get reusable Mindspeech in return for the geas 'remember to plug it in every day'. That doesn't necessarily come with an obligation to some day make a pilgrimage to Steve Jobs grave, or ritually challenge an Android-worshiper every time you meet.

Note that it is because Griselda is relatively skilled, successful and prosperous that she can afford to do this. And it is because she is living in a city that the concept of 'afford' even makes sense. If she was just starting out, without a relevant family inheritance, standard Rune Cult initiation would be a much better option.

 

 

 

[Godlearner]

16 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So let your player start with a 16 year old, just into adulthood, a lay member of some god's cult

RQG is a good system, but not if you expect your character to advance or learn new things. Both skills and POW increases very slowly.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

RQG is a good system, but not if you expect your character to advance or learn new things. Both skills and POW increases very slowly.

My own experience does not support that.

We did do the Six Seasons in Sartar campaign and the resultes were satisfactory.  Now, after the adulthood initiation I declared that the PCs would get cult and occupational training each quarter for free because their clan is raising adult family, not doing for-profit education.  I consider that reasonable  GMing, estimating what has to happen in the social background.

In their 2nd year of course they were not yet comparable to 21 year old starting characters, yet they were released into the wider world.  (Company of the Dragon had not been released but for a game year plus, I ran a good substitute.) Employed at generous terms (that included spell teaching but not much money) they continued to develop. 

And by age 21 they were definitely more skilled and more powerful than 21 year old starting characters.

Anyway. having played through it, it works.  It might not if I were a GM who likes to kill  Adventurers, but I am not.  Though we have had a Resurrection or two between 1619 and 1627 ST.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Godlearner]

17 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

My own experience does not support that.

YGWV, I find it to be snail paced.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Godlearner
spelling

[Baron Wulfraed]

15 hours ago, svensson said:

But you're right, RQG starts the players at a much higher experience level than either RQ2 or RQ3 did. And a large slice of those previous experience percentage points comes from initiation, probably 5% of the total percentage-points-above-starting-values.

As I look at it:

RQ2 -> basically one starts as village brats old enough to be allowed out of the village on their own, armed with tree branches (club/mace) and armored in the equivalent of a poncho cut from heavy carpeting. Basic skills. (the supplemental "Prior Experience" tended to be too granular to apply -- 10 year periods as I recall)

RQ3 -> one starts a few years older (die roll) than RQ2, and for each year gains experience in their parent's occupation -- before going forth on their own, and maybe changing occupation

RQ:RiG -> one starts well seasoned, with experience in /their/ chosen/rolled occupation, which may not be their parent's occupation, along with cult skills. In one aspect RQ:RiG has characters starting at levels, where in my RQ2 days, was when we "retired" them from active play (Cults of Prax had both Rune Lord and Priest for Humakt -- my character /bought/ a priesthood; money donated to the cult adjusted the %age needed to impress the examiners, and I [character] donated enough to bring my chances to 95% [why donate more when 96+% is a failure; still had one character fail, and had to try again the "next year" with another massive donation] -- after which the character went "retired")

[smiorgan]

20 hours ago, svensson said:

Griselda IS initiated. Just not in any cults that the locals are familiar with.

OD says in The Complete Griselda that she's fully initiated in both Lanbril and Eurmal the Thief. And she's friendly with most of the other Lightbringers, if not an actual initiate.

Fine, then Complete Griselda and Big Rubble say contradictory things. Probably OD changed his mind over time. My point was not which one is the one and true Griselda, but to point out the Griselda of Big Rubble as an example of RQ2 expert character who is not initiated.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, smiorgan said:

Fine, then Complete Griselda and Big Rubble say contradictory things. Probably OD changed his mind over time. My point was not which one is the one and true Griselda, but to point out the Griselda of Big Rubble as an example of RQ2 expert character who is not initiated.

Well, Complete Griselda was published LOOONG after Big Rubble. Big Rubble was written as Griselda was still appearing in Different Worlds, in media res so to speak. The Big Rubble statistics are accurate insofar as people understood her at that time. So you're not wrong necessarily, you just didn't have all the information. And for all I know, it's been changed since.

Besides, the question you posed the place/role of uninitiated adults is still a good one.

[svensson]

12 hours ago, Godlearner said:

RQG is a good system, but not if you expect your character to advance or learn new things. Both skills and POW increases very slowly.

The trick with advancement is being lucky. A few good rolls of the dice and you can max your POW pretty frikkin' quick. So, both you and @Squaredeal Sten are both correct.

I've often told the story here on the board of how my character in a long running RQ2 campaign stayed an initiate while everyone else in the party advanced to Priest or Rune Lord because I couldn't get one required skill to bump past 85%. Sometimes the dice are simply not your friend and you have to RP that lack of success.

[PhilHibbs]

One of the characters in my game has gained something like 10 POW points, and one has gained two over the same sessions.

[Kloster]

17 hours ago, Godlearner said:

RQG is a good system, but not if you expect your character to advance or learn new things. Both skills and POW increases very slowly.

 

14 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

My own experience does not support that.

 

14 hours ago, Godlearner said:

YFWV, I find it to be snail paced.

Gaming time advance is roughly the same (1 experience roll, including POW per check per adventure), but game time advance is much slower RAW, because you have only 1 adventure per season. Our previous rhythm (RQ3, because I don't remember for RQ2) was around 2 to 3 adventures per season (with at least 1 week between each), meaning an advance rate at least twice as fast.

[Mugen]

11 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

RQ3 -> one starts a few years older (die roll) than RQ2, and for each year gains experience in their parent's occupation -- before going forth on their own, and maybe changing occupation

I'm not sure what you mean here. You rolled your parents occupation, but you were free to chose your occupation freely, and even change it. Some occupations (Noble, Sorcerer, Chaman) had some tough pre-requisites, though.

There was also an optional quick previous occupation rule which let you freely allot 30% per year, with a maximum of 75%+bonus, or 100% for knowledge skills.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Mugen

[Joerg]

Spirit cult initiation can provide about as much rune magic as can regular cultic initiation, but the conditions for re-usability might be harder to meet as spirit cults tend to have fewer holy days etc.

Worshippers of Lanbril and other thieve entities might be a spirit society rather than distinct spirit cults, which is better than collecting spirit cults on your personal own (unless you are a shaman yourself). You're still missing out on quite a number of functions that a regular rune cult offers, but a spirit society would be a fairly reliable source of personal magic if you are in good standing with its charismatic leader.

In Old (and New) Pavis, this spirit society would also include the Black Fang. The cohesion would be a lot less than an Orlanthi urban guild, and the charismatic leadership might alternate between the patrons of theft-related activities listed in the Pavis books.

[Baron Wulfraed]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. You rolled your parents occupation, but you were free to chose your occupation freely, and even change it. Some occupations (Noble, Sorcerer, Chaman) had some tough pre-requisites, though.\

RQ3 Players Book, page 26 Experience by Occupation (emphasis mine)

Quote

A table at the start of the individual culture provides a random way to find your adventurer's parents' occupation (and hence your adventurer's previous experience within the culture).

There is an optional rule allowing for occupation change -- but it has the cost that the character must stay in that new occupation for a year before gaining the experience points (If I were GM, that would mean NO experience gained in the first year -- so essentially a lost year of experience).

Edited October 5, 2022 by Baron Wulfraed

[Eff]

As a GM, I would strongly discourage a PC from playing a truly uninitiated character in an RQG game, because they not only won't have access to Rune magic, they will, extrapolating from RAW, have no points of spirit magic except what they can buy with initial cash, can only buy spirit magic at full price, and of course receive none of the benefits of cult membership related to skills. (They would also have no access to sorcery, since even Malkioni sorcerers are members of the Invisible God cult, it looks like. Not that that's as immediately relevant given RQG sorcery.) So as a member of the group or party, they would quite simply have fewer verbs to make use of, those verbs would be weaker, and the overall consequence is that it is hard to see how the fun would outweigh the frustration. 

But RQG understands initiation very differently from other versions of RQ did and how the various versions of HQ have done so, and one of the consequences of that is that piety/the sense of closeness to a god is not directly related to initiation. If you don't contribute to your cult, that doesn't seem to revoke your initiation, it just would presumably make it very difficult to refill Rune magic. I think that a character who was somewhat indifferent to the gods would be best represented by someone without the Passions associated with the cult, or with reduced Cult Lore and Worship skills, as opposed to someone without any cultic relationship whatsoever. 

[PhilHibbs]

50 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

.. that the character must stay in that new occupation for a year before gaining the experience points (If I were GM, that would mean NO experience gained in the first year -- so essentially a lost year of experience).

Seems mean.