Uninitiated characters - how rare are people like Griselda?

[Mugen]

12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Seems mean.

Plus, the first years in a job are often the time when you learn the most (even though it's also often an excuse for your boss to not give you a raise).

[Baron Wulfraed]

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

Plus, the first years in a job are often the time when you learn the most (even though it's also often an excuse for your boss to not give you a raise).

My view is that, even if not actively working in one's parent's occupation (ie: pre-char gen process of age determination) one has still been exposed to the tools and activities of that occupation. For a farmer, that could mean given tasks like sharpening the edges of hoes and sickles, maybe even being allowed to practice in a small corner of the field. So, once the age experience comes into play, that prior exposure may count to gain the skills for the year /at the start/. Switching occupation means an equivalent of boot camp -- any experience would be credited at the end of the year (or the start of the /following/ year to put it into alignment with when I'd credit experience for staying with the parent's occupation).

 

[Darius West]

In terms of being uninitiated, I would expect that no Malkioni of any caste can call on divine intervention, and few people actually know more than a couple of points of spirit magic, other than Zzaburi.  Then there is God Forgot...

Edited October 12, 2022 by Darius West

[Godlearner]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

In terms of being uninitiated, I would expect that no Malkioni of any caste can call on divine intervention, and few people actually know more than a couple of points of spirit magic, other than Zzaburi.  Then there is God Forgot...

According to what Jeff has been posting on Facebook, that is not the case. Lower castes follow spirits and worship Gods. If they are initiated, then they will get divine intervention. 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Lower castes follow spirits and worship Gods. If they are initiated, then they will get divine intervention. 

And the Talar also use Ancestor Worship (more trimmed down than Daka Fal) and have Rune magic to summon their ancestors (whole lineages of them to draw upon) and may have access to certain heroes (e.g. Hrestol, Gerlanth, etc.) and their Rune magic.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 10/6/2022 at 11:42 AM, Baron Wulfraed said:

.......So, once the age experience comes into play, that prior exposure may count to gain the skills for the year /at the start/. Switching occupation means an equivalent of boot camp -- any experience would be credited at the end of the year (or the start of the /following/ year to put it into alignment with when I'd credit experience for staying with the parent's occupation)

 

Are you referring to skill% gain during character generation, or during play?

I ask because during play occupational and cult skill% gain is seasonal. Not annual.  And during character generation it is all in one lump, not in annual increments.  

[Mugen]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Are you referring to skill% gain during character generation, or during play?

I ask because during play occupational and cult skill% gain is seasonal. Not annual.  And during character generation it is all in one lump, not in annual increments.  

Note that this post was part of a discussion about RuneQuest 3, which has very different rules for skill gains during character creation and training/study.

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

Note that this post was part of a discussion about RuneQuest 3, which has very different rules for skill gains during character creation and training/study.

I missed the change in step from thr OP's topic, which was RQG.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[hipsterinspace]

The only case of an uninitiated adult I can remember from the RQG materials is Nerestina from the Pegasus Plateau adventure book, which stood out as odd to me. She’s labeled as a “spirit seeker”, but that’s left without elaboration or qualification.

[Darius West]

On 10/13/2022 at 9:17 AM, Godlearner said:

According to what Jeff has been posting on Facebook, that is not the case. Lower castes follow spirits and worship Gods. If they are initiated, then they will get divine intervention. 

That just doesn't seem right.  Malkionism is pretty clear on the point that worshipping Pagan deities is wrong.  While the Jrusteli bent those rules, they did so in the knowledge that they were stealing the power of the inferior entities in a fashion similar to theurgy, and of course now everything the Jrusteli ever did is a textbook on what not to do.  It doesn't make sense for the Malkioni lesser castes to worship lesser gods.  In fact it's heretical.

[metcalph]

Just now, Darius West said:

That just doesn't seem right.  Malkionism is pretty clear on the point that worshipping Pagan deities is wrong. 

No longer so.  And it has not been reflected in Greg's stories about the Malkioni either.  The Church thing was something created in a crunch in fill out details of the west for the Genertela boxed set.

The Wizards practice sorcery.  Other castes support the wizards.  In return they have Rightness and permission to worship gods that will not corrupt them.

[Darius West]

23 minutes ago, metcalph said:

No longer so.  And it has not been reflected in Greg's stories about the Malkioni either.  The Church thing was something created in a crunch in fill out details of the west for the Genertela boxed set.

The Wizards practice sorcery.  Other castes support the wizards.  In return they have Rightness and permission to worship gods that will not corrupt them.

Not corrupt them, you say...  Is this some sort of sleazy Rokari pragmatism?

[hipsterinspace]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Malkionism is pretty clear on the point that worshipping Pagan deities is wrong.

I believe the main workaround is that the gods they worship are technically their ancestors, which likely means their approach to them is different enough that it’s acceptable to the Rokari wizard caste. Also worth noting that most of the Malkioni are assimilated pagans and hsunchen, not of Brithini or Danmalistani descent, giving them pretty wide access to cults that are useful in carrying out the tasks demanded of dronar and horali. I’m guessing some Irensevalists have different ideas about what is permissible, especially the Loskalmi, and with the henotheists, Jonatelans, Trader Princes, and Aeolians you have a much more significant syncretism at every level.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I believe the main workaround is that the gods they worship are technically their ancestors, which likely means their approach to them is different enough that it’s acceptable to the Rokari wizard caste.

Only the Nobles worship their ancestors.  Everybody else worships whatever the Nobles tell them and what the wizards permit (Humakt, Telmor, Basmol etc).

5 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I’m guessing some Irensevalists have different ideas about what is permissible, especially the Loskalmi, 

The word from Jeff has been that the Loskalmi worship only Malkioni cults, like Xemela, Talor etc - no pagans gods, no ancestors.  IMO this situation can't last and the ban is breaking down as the wider world starts to intrude.

[Godlearner]

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The word from Jeff has been

I have been collecing his posts on this subject, but it will be nice when they are compiled and put into "official" print.

[Darius West]

On 10/15/2022 at 2:44 AM, hipsterinspace said:

I believe the main workaround is that the gods they worship are technically their ancestors, which likely means their approach to them is different enough that it’s acceptable to the Rokari wizard caste. Also worth noting that most of the Malkioni are assimilated pagans and hsunchen, not of Brithini or Danmalistani descent, giving them pretty wide access to cults that are useful in carrying out the tasks demanded of dronar and horali. I’m guessing some Irensevalists have different ideas about what is permissible, especially the Loskalmi, and with the henotheists, Jonatelans, Trader Princes, and Aeolians you have a much more significant syncretism at every level.

I see the point and, to be fair, we do have the heresy of Invisible Orlanth, and the likes of St. Humath and St. Urox as potential patron saints/ascended masters, but we must also face the fact that this is a long way from pure Malkionism.  It's very questionable, and given that the Malkioni still fight wars over paganism, it is a long way from being acceptable.  It should be obvious to everyone that these are pagan deities merely being dressed up in Malkionism.  It's like Malkionism has really admitted defeat on the issue of pagan deities, and somehow that doesn't sit right with me.  Malkionism doesn't seem to have enough of a 'purist core' territorially to maintain itself as a distinct religious ideology.  There must be areas where these pseudo ascended masters that are really pagan deities are never worshipped within Malkioni lands.

[hipsterinspace]

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There must be areas where these pseudo ascended masters that are really pagan deities are never worshipped within Malkioni lands.

Loskalm seems like the most prominent example. I'd imagine the "Brithini" mortals of God Forgot are another. They aren't worshiped among the Zzaburi or the Talars most places, the exceptions being places where there has been significant syncretism. As I see it, that "purist core" is ultimately going to be found in their social order rather than something territorial. Even if the Dronar worship Barntar or a river god, they still pay their homage to the Talar and support the magic of the Zzaburi, they can still socially locate themselves as Dronar. To me it doesn't sound sustainable, even just logistically, to ask people to support that social order, and a magical elite atop it, while also being denied any assistive magic of their own to make that exact task possible.

Edited October 16, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I see the point and, to be fair, we do have the heresy of Invisible Orlanth, and the likes of St. Humath and St. Urox as potential patron saints/ascended masters, but we must also face the fact that this is a long way from pure Malkionism. 

The only "pure" Malkioni are the Brithini and the other Malkioni accept they are nothing like them.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

It's very questionable, and given that the Malkioni still fight wars over paganism, it is a long way from being acceptable. 

What wars over paganism would these be?  The key difference between the Seshnegi and the Ralians is whether the wizards should also worship Gods, a heresy.  The question of whether other castes should worship not Gods is one that nobody thinks possible.  

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

It should be obvious to everyone that these are pagan deities merely being dressed up in Malkionism. 

Except that Gods came from the Invisible God and are in origin legitimate emanations of It.  

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

They aren't worshiped among the Zzaburi or the Talars most places, the exceptions being places where there has been significant syncretism.

The Talars of Seshnela worship their ancestors like Seshna Likita, Orlanth and Magasta as has been the case since Cults of Prax and RuneQuest Companion.  For the Malkioni, Malkionism isn't a faith where one believes in the Invisible God - it's faith where one believes in and supports the Wizards.  

 

[Runeblogger]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Talars of Seshnela worship their ancestors like Seshna Likita, Orlanth and Magasta as has been the case since Cults of Prax and RuneQuest Companion.  For the Malkioni, Malkionism isn't a faith where one believes in the Invisible God - it's faith where one believes in and supports the Wizards.  

 

What difference is there between Seshnelans and Aeolians in this regard?

[metcalph]

Just now, Runeblogger said:

What difference is there between Seshnelans and Aeolians in this regard?

The only difference that I know of is that the Aeolians have three castes instead of four.  Seshnegi like King Rikard didn't have a problem with the Aeolians and vice versa when running the place.

[Darius West]

6 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Loskalm seems like the most prominent example. I'd imagine the "Brithini" mortals of God Forgot are another. They aren't worshiped among the Zzaburi or the Talars most places, the exceptions being places where there has been significant syncretism. As I see it, that "purist core" is ultimately going to be found in their social order rather than something territorial. Even if the Dronar worship Barntar or a river god, they still pay their homage to the Talar and support the magic of the Zzaburi, they can still socially locate themselves as Dronar. To me it doesn't sound sustainable, even just logistically, to ask people to support that social order, and a magical elite atop it, while also being denied any assistive magic of their own to make that exact task possible.

You raise a really good point here.  I think that it is a lot more likely for the Dronar to worship an unthreatening deity like Saint Barntar, rather than Saint Worlath or Saint Humath.

[JRE]

For me the difference is one of attitude.

A Sartarite male Orlanthi worships Orlanth, king of the Gods, the awesomest dude ever, and also pays homage to his beautiful wife, Ernalda, his friends and comrades, and children and helpers. A Wind voice models his or her life on Orlanth's, and almost all they do is filled with mythic overtones. A Rokari Dronali rain man (I am fully improvising here) will ask the cloud master Humath for his help, as set up in the old agreements between men and spirits, as has been done for ever. No worship, no imitating the cloud guy, no modeling your life on him. You are the guy in the village who was chosen by the previous Rain man and confirmed by the Lord and his wizards. It is possible that due to some mythic resonance your wife is the Land speaker, but most likely she is not. You still spend your personal power to link with Humath and access his magic, and you lead your fellow villagers at least once a season to keep the old compacts, more frequently if needed. But you still are a good farmer, doing your caste duty to make sure the fields florish and there is food for all.

[Soccercalle]

The Guide states on page 42 that "Most Pelorians never initiate to any deity, but maintain an active religious life by attending the thirty imperial holy days, the holy days of their city or region, and whatever casual worship might benefit them in their day to day life.". I guess that most of them are lay members to deities like Yelm, Seven Mothers and  Lodril.

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I guess that most of them are lay members to deities like Yelm, Seven Mothers and  Lodril.

Not sure about Yelm, but definitely Lodril and Oria, Oslira, Seven Mothers, and the Lowfires.