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Allied Spirits


jo77yroger

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Hi, I need some specifics about allied spirits. It is written in the core book that allied spirits are initiates of their cult.
My questions are as follows: 
1. Does that mean that they begin with 3 rune points as Adventurers do once bound to them ?
2. Can they improve their POW in between adventures like adventurers do ?
3. Can they improve CHA by training/learning like adventurers do ?
 

Thanks you so much for your work!
 

Kevin from Switzerland

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41 minutes ago, jo77yroger said:

Hi, I need some specifics about allied spirits. It is written in the core book that allied spirits are initiates of their cult.
My questions are as follows: 
1. Does that mean that they begin with 3 rune points as Adventurers do once bound to them ?

No, those rules are for creating adventurers. 

As GM I'd say they begin with the common knowledge Rune spells, and their adventurer "ally" can decide to sacrifice their own or the spirit's POW for more Rune points and spells. If desired, the GM can decide that the allied spirit comes with a reasonable number of other Rune spells. 

This is somewhat moot as the adventurer can cast spells through the allied spirit, and thus it has access to all of the adventurer's Rune spells. 

To me, it would make more sense for the adventurer to learn the new spell, which gives both the spirit and the adventurer access to the spell. 

 

41 minutes ago, jo77yroger said:

2. Can they improve their POW in between adventures like adventurers do ?

My initial response to this is that only when they get POW experience rolls. 

I would not give them automatic POW improvement rolls between adventures or at Sacred Time, however. 

 

41 minutes ago, jo77yroger said:

3. Can they improve CHA by training/learning like adventurers do ?

 

Again, maybe only in certain circumstances, but it would vary wildly from cult to cult. Are spirits literate? Can they read scrolls of training? Who is going to do this training? 

If I had to rule, I'd say either the adventurer gets to do their training/learning and their spirit just remains static or the adventurer is spending their entire time coaxing their allied spirit through the process and cannot do the training/learning themselves. 

 

 

 

Edited by Jason D
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3 hours ago, jo77yroger said:

Hi, I need some specifics about allied spirits. It is written in the core book that allied spirits are initiates of their cult.

I'll add Jason's answers to the Allied spirit's Q&A, which you may also find useful to read 5.5 Allying a Spirit (page 277)

In adding to answer 3, I'd like to remind readers that allied spirits are embodied into animals or things. They aren't free floating spirits.

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On 10/4/2022 at 1:36 PM, Jason D said:

As GM I'd say they begin with the common knowledge Rune spells, and their adventurer "ally" can decide to sacrifice their own or the spirit's POW for more Rune points and spells. If desired, the GM can decide that the allied spirit comes with a reasonable number of other Rune spells. 

Presumably they would start with one Rune Point (and the spell that comes with it), as sacrificing 1 POW to 1 Rune Point is part of initiation?

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It's not too crazy to assume that an Allied Spirit is an Initiate of the deity you got the AS from.

So yes, I'd rule that your Allied Spirit would have 1 Rune Point and an associated spell. It would also have access to the Common Rune Spells and may choose to sacrifice for additional Rune Points and magics. However, UNLIKE the mortal, it doesn't have any items [crystals, enchantments, etc.] to boost its magical abilities. It only has it's native POW.

Also be advised that, just like a shaman's fetch, your AS is vulnerable to the Spirit World all the time. Never let its native POW get so low that it becomes bait for a malevolent spirit on the hunt.

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8 minutes ago, svensson said:

It's not too crazy to assume that an Allied Spirit is an Initiate of the deity you got the AS from.

So yes, I'd rule that your Allied Spirit would have 1 Rune Point and an associated spell. It would also have access to the Common Rune Spells and may choose to sacrifice for additional Rune Points and magics.

I don't think that those two things necessarily follow.

Like the other discussions about companion animals, I don't hold to the opinion that the cult writeups that we have are the only way of relating to a deity. Those cults are created by and for people, specifically the writeups that we have are written for player-characters.

So whilst yes an AS is an initiate, I don't see that as directly expanding the range of rune magic that the player has. The AS is an assistant sent by the deity, not an independent worshipper of the deity.

"Sorry, your Allied Spirit is off doing cult duty. Well, it's an initiate, so it has to follow the rules just like you, so it's not around this week!"

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8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that those two things necessarily follow.

Like the other discussions about companion animals, I don't hold to the opinion that the cult writeups that we have are the only way of relating to a deity. Those cults are created by and for people, specifically the writeups that we have are written for player-characters.

So whilst yes an AS is an initiate, I don't see that as directly expanding the range of rune magic that the player has. The AS is an assistant sent by the deity, not an independent worshipper of the deity.

"Sorry, your Allied Spirit is off doing cult duty. Well, it's an initiate, so it has to follow the rules just like you, so it's not around this week!"

I would tend to disagree with that assessment, but YGMV.

As for the initiate AS being off performing cult duty, it is very, VERY rare for someone lower than Rune level to get an allied spirit. Almost 'have to go on a successful Heroquest' rare. We have examples in canon of initiates who do indeed have an allied spirit, but not in this edition so far as I know. I might be wrong there, but I can't think of anyone right off top of my head. Supposing that Allied Spirits are the privilege of Rune status, I would think that serving an ordained member of the cult 24/7 would be 'cult service' enough! 😁

I mean, could see the hear the conversation at the Allied Spirit Bar and Grill?

"Hey, Word of Desolation! I heard the good news about you!"

"Yeah, Eye-Blinder, I got selected."

"Why so glum, then? You look like you just lost the Divine Intervention Lottery...."

"Well, I kinda did. I DID get selected to be an Allied Spirit, praise our Master, but... well... it's to a Player Character..."

"Oh, DUDE! I'm SO sorry to hear that. Player Characters are NUTS! You never know WHAT those clowns will try next! You want me to ask around and see if any of the others will donate to the United POW Relief Fund in your name?"

"That may not be a bad idea, EB....."

Edited by svensson
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14 minutes ago, svensson said:

As for the initiate AS being off performing cult duty,

Yeah that wasn't a serious suggestion! Just there to exemplify why an Allied Spirit isn't an independent entity and so should not fit into the normal cult hierarchy. I mean, are they also going to try to qualify for priest? What if your Allied Spirit makes it to High Priest before you do, is it in charge of you now? Again, not really a serious suggestion! Just a bit of reductio ad absurdum.

13 minutes ago, svensson said:

Supposing that Allied Spirits are the privilege of Rune status, I would think that serving an ordained member of the cult 24/7 would be 'cult service' enough! 😁

Yes, and another good example of why the normal rules for initiates do not apply to allied spirits!

Edited by PhilHibbs
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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Presumably they would start with one Rune Point (and the spell that comes with it), as sacrificing 1 POW to 1 Rune Point is part of initiation?

As Jason said:

On 10/4/2022 at 12:36 PM, Jason D said:

As GM I'd say they begin with the common knowledge Rune spells, and their adventurer "ally" can decide to sacrifice their own or the spirit's POW for more Rune points and spells. If desired, the GM can decide that the allied spirit comes with a reasonable number of other Rune spells. 

So just 1 Rune point.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Also be advised that, just like a shaman's fetch, your AS is vulnerable to the Spirit World all the time. Never let its native POW get so low that it becomes bait for a malevolent spirit on the hunt.

Remember that Allied spirits aren't actually discorporate once they inhabit their animal or sacred cult object. They are the animal or sacred cult object. Their spirits don't roam around freely unless they have the power to discorporate.

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So whilst yes an AS is an initiate, I don't see that as directly expanding the range of rune magic that the player has. The AS is an assistant sent by the deity, not an independent worshipper of the deity.

Yes, the allied spirit may approach the cult from a different aspect to that of their Priest or Rune Lord. A Shadowcat allied spirit of a Yinkin priest would treat Yinkin as ancestor worship. It may even have access to different magic (dependent on how much work your GM is willing to do). 

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Okay so this scotches my silly suggestions about rune priest allied spirits:

RQG P.277:

Quote

An allied spirit is an initiate of the cult and can sacrifice
for Rune points, just as a normal initiate. Allied spirits
cannot be Rune Priests, Rune Lords, or God-talkers.

So an AS has a separate rune pool to the adventurer, presumably limited by its own CHA. They can both access each others' RP.

So if you have an AS with a high CHA, then you have effectively doubled the RP available to you. That makes the initial 3D6 roll super important! Make sure to bling up your AS with fancy items, and find a way for it to get get the credit for heroic deeds, to get that CHA up!

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56 minutes ago, Scotty said:

 

So just 1 Rune point.

 

 Jason said it can have rune points, plural, and at GM discretion a "reasonable number" of rune spells, which indicates a matching rune pool.  And it will need more than one rune point to cast its Adventurer's better rune spells. 

Giving an allied spirit with  just one rune point would be a pretty frustrating gift.  I suppose if the GM wants to jerk the player around a little and make him or her sacrifice POW soon, that would be one way.

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41 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

....So if you have an AS with a high CHA, then you have effectively doubled the RP available to you. That makes the initial 3D6 roll super important! Make sure to bling up your AS with fancy items, and find a way for it to get get the credit for heroic deeds, to get that CHA up!

😄 I wonder whether having the Allied Spirit reside in your bejewled sword, or tiara [can a tiara be a cult object for Orlanth Rex?] , or maybe putting a jeweled collar on its cult animal, would qualify and raise its CHA. Otherwise I can see a Lankhor Mhy spending Dark Season  reading to an AS from "How to Make Friends and Influence people".  By lamp light.  😀

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing, Rex
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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

As Jason said:

So just 1 Rune point.

20 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

 Jason said it can have rune points, plural, and at GM discretion a "reasonable number" of rune spells, which indicates a matching rune pool.  And it will need more than one rune point to cast its Adventurer's better rune spells. 

Giving an allied spirit with  just one rune point would be a pretty frustrating gift.

It would start with just one RP, but can sacrifice POW for more. And it can use its adventurer's RP and vice versa so it can cast decent spells right out of the gate. And it isn't really a gift, it's just what a new initiate starts with. I wouldn't even give it that, but it can sacrifice its POW for RP as part of the ceremony that forms the bond to the PC.

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@Scotty Thanks for some of the clarifications.

I'm not sure how an AS would/could raise its CHA. Certainly the deeds it does with its human would count. A Humakt sword with a resident AS whose Sword of Humakt owner does great things with it would naturally improve its reputation, especially when you consider the item valuation tables in Weapons and Equipment. That being said, some kind of table-rule would have to be negotiated.

I don't think that Allied Spirits can or should advance in a cult. Initiates they may be, but initiates they ought to remain. Allied Spirits and their mortal ally make a very powerful team, and allowing the AS to become a Rune level in its own right kind of breaks that system. And the LAST thing any referee wants to entertain is the possibility that an Allied Spirit has an Allied Spirit of its own...

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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ok, it's obviously an initiate of the cult you got it from...

But, would you allow said cult spirit to initiate into another cult?

And, would you normally have the AS choose an associate cult special Rune spell? (especially as its first..??)

Thinking about that, just personally 

1) No. It is a cult spirit, not an eclectic multi cult spirit.  And it is from a particular God, not a group of gods.

2) As GM I would start it with a cult rune spell, indeed I would also insist on any newly initiated PC taking a cult rune spell first.  I am not sure that I would ever allow tbe spirit to take rune spells from other (associated cult) lists, at least not before exhausting the cult list.  And I also doubt that an allied spirit can participate in Spell Trading.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. Plus it would be silly if your Allied Spirit could achieve Rune Level and get its own Allied Spirit, and so on recursively.

In precious version we allowed Allied spirits to become acolytes for reusable Rune Magic. No need to do so in RQG.

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1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. Plus it would be silly if your Allied Spirit could achieve Rune Level and get its own Allied Spirit, and so on recursively. 🙂

You'd end up with a 'Thanatar head' situation... 'w' is the AS of 'x' is the AS of 'y' who is the AS of player character 'z'. And that is a level of complication NOBODY wants to muck about with.

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19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

1) No. It is a cult spirit, not an eclectic multi cult spirit.  And it is from a particular God, not a group of gods.

Simple examples - Orlanth and Barntar? Orlanth and Yinkin? Maybe even Orlanth and Ernalda...

 

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

And I also doubt that an allied spirit can participate in Spell Trading.

I don't see where you get the idea that it would be necessary...

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On 10/11/2022 at 2:34 PM, svensson said:

@Scotty Thanks for some of the clarifications.

I'm not sure how an AS would/could raise its CHA. Certainly the deeds it does with its human would count. A Humakt sword with a resident AS whose Sword of Humakt owner does great things with it would naturally improve its reputation, especially when you consider the item valuation tables in Weapons and Equipment. That being said, some kind of table-rule would have to be negotiated.

Divine intervention! Rune Lords can effectively use DI once per season once their Rune pool reaches 10: Divine intervention can be used to raise a characteristic by 1 point, but no characteristic can be raised above its normal maximum, as described on page 418. The rune points are recovered ar usual. Rune priests would have a harder time as their DI is much riskier.

On 10/11/2022 at 2:34 PM, svensson said:

I don't think that Allied Spirits can or should advance in a cult. Initiates they may be, but initiates they ought to remain. Allied Spirits and their mortal ally make a very powerful team, and allowing the AS to become a Rune level in its own right kind of breaks that system. And the LAST thing any referee wants to entertain is the possibility that an Allied Spirit has an Allied Spirit of its own...

The Allied spirit section is very clear on this: 

Allied spirits cannot be Rune Priests, Rune Lords, or God-talkers.

22 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Simple examples - Orlanth and Barntar? Orlanth and Yinkin? Maybe even Orlanth and Ernalda...

If you are a Rune lord or priest, you may get one allied spirit, it will always be from your main cult, and not a member of the secondary cult. Allied spirits cannot join multiple cults. It is conceivable that the allied spirit can be related to the secondary cult, for example Orlanth, Odayla, Yinkin have shadowcats as allied spirits; Barntar is usually a subcult of Orlanth, and where independant has only God-talkers (no allied spirits); Orlanth and Ernalda have no overlap in allied spirits. Look at the allied spirit table on page 277, the overlaps are easy to spot.

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43 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Divine intervention! Rune Lords can effectively use DI once per season once their Rune pool reaches 10:

That's one down side of Ernalda, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, or other cults with only priests. Also Waha shamans.

I suppose if the party has a RL of another cult, they could use their DI to help out a friend. Or it could be a reward for exceptional service. "Thanks for saving my nephew from that disease spirit. Have a point of CHA for your fetch!"

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Divine intervention! Rune Lords can effectively use DI once per season once their Rune pool reaches 10: Divine intervention can be used to raise a characteristic by 1 point, but no characteristic can be raised above its normal maximum, as described on page 418. The rune points are recovered ar usual. Rune priests would have a harder time as their DI is much riskier.

The Allied spirit section is very clear on this: 

Allied spirits cannot be Rune Priests, Rune Lords, or God-talkers.

If you are a Rune lord or priest, you may get one allied spirit, it will always be from your main cult, and not a member of the secondary cult. Allied spirits cannot join multiple cults. It is conceivable that the allied spirit can be related to the secondary cult, for example Orlanth, Odayla, Yinkin have shadowcats as allied spirits; Barntar is usually a subcult of Orlanth, and where independant has only God-talkers (no allied spirits); Orlanth and Ernalda have no overlap in allied spirits. Look at the allied spirit table on page 277, the overlaps are easy to spot.

1. Did NOT think of Divine Intervention. Good point. I've only had one character reach Rune level and have never used the DI mechanics as a player or referee, so I guess I don't think of them.

2. Didn't see the rule on AS' becoming Rune levels, and I thought I'd read that section pretty thoroughly. I guess that's why we talk this stuff out 😁

3. Thanks for the clarification on AS cults, though I can't see why it would need clarifying. It makes no sense for a character reach Rune status in a main cult and then try for an AS in secondary cult in which they're only an Initiate. That would have been a 'hard nope' at my table, an absolute non-starter.

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